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On June 11 2013 18:34 unteqair wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 18:25 Doublemint wrote:Very nice, seems like David Kim and the balance team do listen and come to similar conclusions  If they came come to similar conclusions to the community there would be no waiting it out to see if HB are too strong. And probably there would be no warpgate mechanic and stalkers would be 50x stronger. Or probably this game would be just like BW.
Well I can't disagree with that, but this is SC2 and they cannot all of a sudden throw major design concepts out of the window. They take their sweet time fixing things but at least they are on the right track.
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On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote:
fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive
I'm with Wax on this.
Compared against the WoL Blue Flame Hellion drops, the hellbat threat pretty much lies in the fact that medivac boost allows high speed pick up and re-drop of hellbats to the escaping scv clusters, even if scvs are pulled and split (which is the proper response to a unit as slow as the hellbat, but with the current availability of boost technology, the hellbat's natural weakness of slow speed is nullified), where as in WoL, because of the speed nerfs to medivacs early in WoL, hellion drops relied on the hellion's own ground speed for chasing down workers, and thus could be defended passively by simcity or using other units to block. The power of the re-drop within the main on selective targets is so powerful that soft-counters like marauders and tanks die because of the quick surrounds made available by medivac boosts. the fact that hellbats receive healing with their bio tag is only icing on the problem.
Perhaps disable the medivac boost ability if there are any mechanical units in the medivac?
It would but more risk on the attacker, because you couldn't always hot-pickup out of the drop zone.
However a noticeable con to this solution is that it endangers a lot of current battlefield tactics that revolve around hellbat drops on the battlefront (ie boosting to drop within or behind a cluster of bio units in all Terran matchups). Such drops would theoretically still be possible but would be significantly more vulnerable to anti-air units like marines, hydras, and stalkers...
But then perhaps it would encourage more direct pushes with hellbats that would actually make use of it's bio tag.
I think that a pre-igniter change will help, but won't solve the core problem.
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in TvP they have two places:
1. early game to comletely wipe out a mineral line
2. late game to buff the terran army against the AOE damage a protoss has.
#1 is completely favoured towards terran, if they rush for 4 hellbats and 2 medivacs they are gauranteed to completely wipe out an entire mineral line before you can actually get the hellbats down. I've tested it in a game last night, where i saw it coming and setup my defenses for it. I put 3 cannons in each mineral line, and 3 stalkers in each mineral line and have my mothership core between my 2 bases for photon overcharge.
He boosted both his medivacs for my main mineral line, i photon overcharged and focused down the medivacs first, then the hellbats. Guess how many workers i had leftover? 2 total ( those that were in the gas geysers )
Now don't get me wrong, ofcourse i could also pull workers. do crazy micro to get them out of harms way, but the fact that i was OVERpreparing for a drop and still they got to kill 20+ workers is just straight up ridiculous, and that's not harassment, that's herp derp i can win the game with this every single time if my opponent makes 1 small mistake, and how much does it costs me? 600 minerals and 200 gas.
For me as a protoss to get the same effect i need 2 archon inside a warp prism. Now i know that comparing two races directly is not the way to go, but in terms of devastating harass terrans have it the easiest.
Make them require the transformation servos + armory so that the super early game harass will be gone, but midgame harass still viable, and lategame into army composition also viable.
Also it's really important to look at games and see how they progress in terms of balance. the number of T/Z/P in a certain tournaments top 16 can mean anything. if certain parts of a races composition is too strong, people deal with it by just allinning before that and win that way.
That means there would be 2 unbalanced situations in that matchup, namely the Allin from player 1 is too strong, and the unit/army composition from player 2 is too strong. and Blizzard needs to adress unbalanced things in the game MUCH MUCH faster then they do now.
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How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
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Two-pronged approach:
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown.
2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
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On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Or make the medivac speedboost cost 25 or 50 mana as mentioned in one of the pre-HOTS SOTG's, which is probably a lot less extreme than most solutions posted so far.
ninja'd
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On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
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On June 11 2013 18:51 Proseat wrote:
Two-pronged approach:
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown.
2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
I actually really like this idea.
Especially the medivac change. It makes it so that there's a tradeoff between boosting and healing. If you boost to get to places faster, theres less healing. So it makes the player decide on speed or vitality.
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I think they should add some gas to their cost. In the least this means there are some opportunity costs when you build a hellbat, and it might be that the gas they spend on their hellbats delays their medivacs, achieving the slowing effect on the build that Kim wants.
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On June 11 2013 18:52 Hoender wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead? Or make the medivac speedboost cost 25 or 50 mana as mentioned in one of the pre-HOTS SOTG's ninja'd
Ok but that would be a big detriment to bio play in general, while not having the biggest impact on early drops. It would help, but at a massive cost for mid and late game bio.
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On June 11 2013 18:55 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead? Sure. Then how about an upgrade requirement for the Photon Vercharge and the Mutalisk speed???
If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare.
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They should make a change that affects tvt only. This is not an issue of TvP and TvZ.
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in my opinion hots is a bad designed game - its only good because of the massive amount of players playing it. (YES THATS THE REASON WHY SC2 IS AWESOME!)
the balance is overall shit in my opinion: Terran plays like Zerg nowadays and the only way to punish them for a Zerg player is to allin or defend till ultralisk are out. Protoss feels like they are the only race where the units seem to actually fit into the gamedesign.
anyway david should get fired - that guy is annoying.
User was warned for this post
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Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment.
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On June 11 2013 19:11 FOREIGN735 wrote:
in my opinion hots is a bad designed game - its only good because of the massive amount of players playing it. (YES THATS THE REASON WHY SC2 IS AWESOME!)
the balance is overall shit in my opinion: Terran plays like Zerg nowadays and the only way to punish them for a Zerg player is to allin or defend till ultralisk are out. Protoss feels like they are the only race where the units seem to actually fit into the gamedesign.
anyway david should get fired - that guy is annoying.
I always wondered if it took longer to create a troll account, or to make a troll post. Maybe I should try it out some time and find out.
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The idea is nice but it should be kept in that way so that it will affect early game only. In late game terrans have no other simplistic and cheap harras option other then hellbat drops.
They should not change a "click on mineral line" harras option for late game which is the terran equivalent of sending a few lings or warping a dt. All of these are easy to execute and at very low cost so that you don't care about them after clicking on the mineral line, however all are easily stopped by basic static defense.
TL;DR: dont do goddambiggamechangernerfs, nerfing earlygame is fine.
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On June 11 2013 18:25 Doublemint wrote:Very nice, seems like David Kim and the balance team do listen and come to similar conclusions
This is a piece of the Hellbat criticism I wrote on October 27th, 2012, a few days after recieving beta access:
"The Hellbat is also too cost effective for a mineral only unit. It is not only an effective main line fighter but it can harass very effectively. Furthermore, when dropped from Medivacs Hellbats easily wipe out a mineral line in a few shots with it's wide arc of fire. Think pre-nerf Blue Flame Hellions! "
I also shared it with the Blizzard team (via the Beta forum) on that date. Yet it was released in a fashion that may end up requiring two nerfs to fix. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought of this. Blizzard seems to have absolutely no foresight, and certainly won't listen to logic, history, or the community.
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+ Show Spoiler +"I always wondered if it took longer to create a troll account, or to make a troll post. Maybe I should try it out some time and find out"
well it seems like nowadays its easier to declare somebody as a troll then to accept different opinions.
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On June 11 2013 18:55 Draconicfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 18:51 Proseat wrote:
Two-pronged approach:
1. Medivac booster activation costs a certain amount of energy (similar to Oracle). Retain cooldown.
2. Hellbats require blueflame upgrade to reach full damage potential. Slight damage nerf.
I actually really like this idea. Especially the medivac change. It makes it so that there's a tradeoff between boosting and healing. If you boost to get to places faster, theres less healing. So it makes the player decide on speed or vitality.
Hmmm... But if medivac needs energy to boost, that would make the feedback less effective.
How about: (I have made 1&2 bold because they are really important!!!)
1.Medivac requires research to have booster (or just nerf to longer cooldown)
2.Hellbat with no bio tag
3.Hellbat will have +1 armor
3.Hellbat will have 2 cargo size
4.No transformation servo. only require armory.
5.No longer build from Factory. Require Hellion to be built and transform.
I think hellbats with blueflame is a great idea!!! I always wondered why 
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What I would do:
1: lower hellbats dmg
2: blue flame upgrade for hellbats
3: upgrade for medivac boost (required fusions core? May be a smooth way to transition into air after bio)
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EPT
