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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:26 Big-t wrote: What I would do: 1: lower hellbats dmg 2: blue flame upgrade for hellbats 3: upgrade for medivac boost (required fusions core? May be a smooth way to transition into air after bio) I think fusion core might be too late? I was thinking on starport tech lab. What you guys think? | ||
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pieroog
Poland146 Posts
someone had great idea to alter medvac's agility while boosted. | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2574 Posts
On June 11 2013 18:42 fenrysk wrote: I'm with Wax on this. Compared against the WoL Blue Flame Hellion drops, the hellbat threat pretty much lies in the fact that medivac boost allows high speed pick up and re-drop of hellbats to the escaping scv clusters, even if scvs are pulled and split (which is the proper response to a unit as slow as the hellbat, but with the current availability of boost technology, the hellbat's natural weakness of slow speed is nullified), where as in WoL, because of the speed nerfs to medivacs early in WoL, hellion drops relied on the hellion's own ground speed for chasing down workers, and thus could be defended passively by simcity or using other units to block. The power of the re-drop within the main on selective targets is so powerful that soft-counters like marauders and tanks die because of the quick surrounds made available by medivac boosts. the fact that hellbats receive healing with their bio tag is only icing on the problem. Perhaps disable the medivac boost ability if there are any mechanical units in the medivac? It would but more risk on the attacker, because you couldn't always hot-pickup out of the drop zone. However a noticeable con to this solution is that it endangers a lot of current battlefield tactics that revolve around hellbat drops on the battlefront (ie boosting to drop within or behind a cluster of bio units in all Terran matchups). Such drops would theoretically still be possible but would be significantly more vulnerable to anti-air units like marines, hydras, and stalkers... But then perhaps it would encourage more direct pushes with hellbats that would actually make use of it's bio tag. I think that a pre-igniter change will help, but won't solve the core problem. I agree, and I like the idea of some kind of nerf to the boost ability, especially one that forces a choice between healing and boosting. An energy requirement to boost would be interesting - and would give Terrans an interesting option to intentionally drain the energy on their Medivacs before dropping against Protoss. Another option would be something that straight up forces T to choose whether he wants healing or boost for a particular drop, for example by making boost completely drain the Medivac's energy, or by giving the Medivac a 5-second transform between healing mode and boosting mode. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On June 11 2013 18:59 Sapphire.lux wrote: If Hellbat drops are problematic (don't know if they are) then something has got to give, and i don't want factory units to get nerfed while mech is still so rare. They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU. Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs | ||
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Startyr
Scotland188 Posts
(22 damage to light would take 7 shots to kill a zealot while 21 or 20 takes 8) It still takes time to see how all of the strategies develop, if they jump in to change things too quickly then strengths and weaknesses of positioning/timings, unit compositions and so on never become established and its too hard to distinguish a good play from a bad one. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:32 Dvriel wrote: They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU. Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs They are not more problematic in TvT than in the other matchups. In fact, they are much less problematic, as in the worst case, both sides go hellbats and thus there is no coinflipping involved as in the other matchups. The difference is only that in TvT both sides often do them, so not 50% but 100% of the strategies in a set come down to hellbats. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Longer cooldown is all the medivac needs, this way you can boost into their base but can't use it again to boost over their fleeing workers, or to escape. Although with terran winrates looking balanced I understand why Blizzard would be hesitant to change the medivac. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10108 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:32 Dvriel wrote: They are ONLY in TvT, because are dominatig the MU. Mech is not rare, dont know why are you saying this.It Works pretty well in all MUs No. And why the hell people don't make hellions. Pulling scv's is that hard ? Having a turret plus a viking neglect any kind of re-pick (which also requires control from your opponent, and people are speaking of which like it's drop the hellbats and forget). | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:39 Fjodorov wrote: I would prefer increased cooldown on the boost than an energy requirement. The player should have to choose between getting in fast or getting out fast. Being able to do both in such a short period of time is hurting the game i think. I like this idea, it'd create an interesting risk/reward dynamic | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote: Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do. I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it). As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. | ||
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MyrM
United States10 Posts
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
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TechSc2
Netherlands554 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:37 Bagi wrote: Medivac boost costing energy forces too much energy management, while dropping 3 different places you would need to stim your units, pick your targets and disable medivac healing if necessary so you have enough to boost out. Longer cooldown is all the medivac needs, this way you can boost into their base but can't use it again to boost over their fleeing workers, or to escape. Although with terran winrates looking balanced I understand why Blizzard would be hesitant to change the medivac. Winrates are "balanced" in your eyes because of statistics, but you fail to see how those statistics become those numbers, i.e. i'm a protoss player and i see early 2x medivac 4x hellbat drops more and more, so i 1 base all in with blink stalkers which makes me win against this opening. because there are builds that are hard countered against my blink all in, i'm flipping a coin to hope that they open up hellbats. That's why you see a reasonable winrate % but fail to see what is actually going on in the game itself. Does that mean the game is balanced? fuck no! the game is even more stale in this way then actually changing the hellbat and making more openings viable. Ideally everything should be viable to use, but also reasonable to defend with same amount of skill/micro involved. Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:46 TechSc2 wrote: Winrates are "balanced" in your eyes because of statistics, but you fail to see how those statistics become those numbers, i.e. i'm a protoss player and i see early 2x medivac 4x hellbat drops more and more, so i 1 base all in with blink stalkers which makes me win against this opening. because there are builds that are hard countered against my blink all in, i'm flipping a coin to hope that they open up hellbats. That's why you see a reasonable winrate % but fail to see what is actually going on in the game itself. Does that mean the game is balanced? fuck no! the game is even more stale in this way then actually changing the hellbat and making more openings viable. Ideally everything should be viable to use, but also reasonable to defend with same amount of skill/micro involved. Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying. I see your point but pro games are hardly devolving into mass hellbat drops madness (TvT being the exception), and those are the winrates we should be looking at. | ||
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Obsi
87 Posts
Referring to Hellbats rather than the medivacs I think healing is one of the main problems..I've seen like 40 lings dying to 2 hellbats and I don't really think, that that is how it is supposed to be. Don't know why people think that damage nerf to 19 or so would be too sick. They would still 2 shot zerglings, even with carapace upgrade. You could just change it to 19 (+11 vs Light with blue flame). Kind of weird numbers but well, it's working out that way. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:46 TechSc2 wrote: Winrates are "balanced" in your eyes because of statistics, but you fail to see how those statistics become those numbers, i.e. i'm a protoss player and i see early 2x medivac 4x hellbat drops more and more, so i 1 base all in with blink stalkers which makes me win against this opening. because there are builds that are hard countered against my blink all in, i'm flipping a coin to hope that they open up hellbats. That's why you see a reasonable winrate % but fail to see what is actually going on in the game itself. Does that mean the game is balanced? fuck no! the game is even more stale in this way then actually changing the hellbat and making more openings viable. Ideally everything should be viable to use, but also reasonable to defend with same amount of skill/micro involved. Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying. Yep. Blizzard shouldn't brought back those firebats. Even though blizzard tried to make a new game out of BW, they still bring back the good old firebats! + Show Spoiler + Why don't you give that role to predator? they do splash dmg? | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:50 GeOnoSis wrote: I really hope David Kim or someone like him reads this thread haha. Some nice ideas like decreasing the agility so you cant change directions etc. that easily and make it harder to control. The increased cooldown thing sounds also great! Referring to Hellbats rather than the medivacs I think healing is one of the main problems..I've seen like 40 lings dying to 2 hellbats and I don't really think, that that is how it is supposed to be. Don't know why people think that damage nerf to 19 or so would be too sick. They would still 2 shot zerglings, even with carapace upgrade. You could just change it to 19 (+11 vs Light with blue flame). Kind of weird numbers but well, it's working out that way. +2! It slightly nerfs medivac but increasing its complexity would be more fun to watch! For hellbat? JUST REMOVE THE BIO TAG!!! | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:24 SsDrKosS wrote: Hmmm... But if medivac needs energy to boost, that would make the feedback less effective. How about: (I have made 1&2 bold because they are really important!!!) 1.Medivac requires research to have booster (or just nerf to longer cooldown) 2.Hellbat with no bio tag 3.Hellbat will have +1 armor 3.Hellbat will have 2 cargo size 4.No transformation servo. only require armory. 5.No longer build from Factory. Require Hellion to be built and transform. I think hellbats with blueflame is a great idea!!! I always wondered why  Well for the Medivac change a longer cooldown would work too. But I'm still kind of a fan of the energy requirement. Like imagine if there was no cooldown and boosters were just an on/off toggle like the Oracle. Then for one make it makes the medivac energy upgrade more useful, and it opens up a few more decisions/choices for the player. You'd be able to boost for longer (but obviously it must be balanced), but if you do then you can't heal as much. But on the other hand if you boost more you can spend medivac energy which makes them stronger against feedback, but they can't heal. I think it'll lead to some interesting decisions like whether or not the player wants to be more "aggressive" and boost everywhere with drops rather than to be more conservative and allow their units to live longer. Plus then there's bounds to be those tense mistakes when a player has boosters on by accident and expends all of their medivac energy right before a big fight. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2593 Posts
On June 11 2013 19:46 TechSc2 wrote: Ideally i think a SC2 game should last 20 minutes where the first maxout is 20 minutes. in it's current state i think games last on average 15 minutes with a maxout at 13-14 minutes depedning on what race you play. And i hope we have some smart cookies here that understand what i'm saying. I don't agree with you at all TvP Terran maxes are about 16 minutes, Protoss maxes about 18 minutes, and most games end before TvP reaches the maxed stage TvZ In top level play no-one really maxes until after hive tech, constant Terran bio-mine pushes means both sides lose a lot of units. TvT Hellbats all day. If someone isn't dead already before max, whoever maxes first really depends on who lost less to hellbats. PvZ Zerg maxes pretty early (remember the 11 minute Stephano roach max?) and protoss generally catches up around 18 minutes. Protoss does a lot of 2 base all-in though, and those games don't generally reach the maxed stage, and with 3 base play, Protosses can often die to mutalisks or hydralisks before max. PvP First, you might die straight out to 1 base play. Second, you might die to a push before maxed. Then if both players reach maxed, they don't generally fight immediately upon maxing; there is usually a lot of posturing etc. And certainly not at 13-14 minutes. ZvZ ZvZ ends early a lot, either you die at the ling/bane hatch tech, or you die to or fail a roach push, or you die to mutalisks, or you get cheesed in some other way. There is a tendency for players to go roach hydra now, but it's certainly not a 13-14 minute maxed game. In conclusion I have no idea what you are talking about, what you are saying does not match with the current metagame. | ||
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