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On June 11 2013 20:07 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote:
took them long enough to figuire it out.
sigh
better late then never.
Better late than insta-knee jerk nerf.
I totally agree with this! Better safe than sorry.
I also don't really see a problem with TvT. It might be that both players are "forced" to open hellbats but after "the dust" has settled and both have equal skill they are fit to head into the midgame. It brings some nice explosive action into the first minutes of the game.
On the other hand it may be too volatile. sigh.
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On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be.
The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent.
I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
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He finally sees what we have been saying since beta. Better late than never I suppose. I think removing the bio tag and making the bonus damage slightly later would help. Like its meant to be a late game unit and it should be used as one so putting it behind upgrades and making the early game shit almost impossible or at least more all in makes a lot of sense.
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Pre-igniter seems a very good idea but to counterbalance the weakness early game they should counter balance it with more dmg output when the upgrade is done so hellbats will be really scary lategame.
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It would be good if it would have been a reasearch in tech lab who requires armory. That would delay it quite a bit i think
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yup I agree nerf it
like others have said, you don't even have to kill probes or drones to make it worth it. With good micro you can force him to get behind just through the delayed mining time. Terran can just make you pull and then focus on macro'ing rather than actually trying to kill anything.
then they come back with 2 medivacs next time, then 3 if they want etc.
way too easy to pull off, and even worse it's way to easy to just leave because of afterburners
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I'm not sure about the pre-igniter idea.
Seems that hellbats with medivacs infront of a siege tank army mid-lategame just obliterates bio armies.
Almost making mech the only viable strategy in TvT.
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I think it would be enough to remove bio tag. That would at least make the defending hellbats as equally strong with the dropping ones, making it possible to have the defenders atvantage.
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The only problem with the hellbat that I have is that it's a mineral dump unit that counters every other mineral dump really efficiently. That and the fact that it can be healed by medivacs.
I hope they don't change turbo boost too drastically, a longer cooldown would make it more valuable to hold onto rather than just keeping it off cooldown.
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Just don't allow units to be dropped while afterburners are ignited. Afterburners imo were meant to get medivacs to a target quicker and giving drops a chance to survive so you didn't have to do damage, not to drop slow units on top of workers, that just seems broken.
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On June 11 2013 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent. I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs.
You sound very biased
The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE!
It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus
(hello life)
I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
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give that unit to protoss
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How about giving some delay on units when they are dropped from the medivac? This was implemented in BW because protoss reaver was not used as it meant to be (as a seize unit) but rather used in combination with shuttle and destroyed mineral lines so fast. That's why reaver cannot attack for a couple of game seconds after a patch. Just a suggestion.
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Goodbye Flash and Innovation, hail Mvp
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On June 11 2013 18:07 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:47 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On June 11 2013 16:33 VArsovskiSC wrote:
1 - make Medivac cost 125/125 So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..  We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable. The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs. And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else. Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows. Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety.
What a disgraceful thing to say.
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On June 11 2013 23:12 Skytt wrote:
The only problem with the hellbat that I have is that it's a mineral dump unit that counters every other mineral dump really efficiently. That and the fact that it can be healed by medivacs.
I hope they don't change turbo boost too drastically, a longer cooldown would make it more valuable to hold onto rather than just keeping it off cooldown.
I think adjusting the speed boost is the way to go. I have been a long proponent of making the medivac control differently during the boost. Currently, the thing is more agile than a phoenix when boosted. If it didn't turn on a dime, the medivac couldn't thread the needle so easily between base defenses and would take extra hits from it got in range.
A longer cool down may also help out. I would like to see a cool down that makes it so the terran only gets one boost per drop.
They could also buff the other race's anti air. Take a look at blink and find a way to make it come earlier without opening up all ins(aka, not be able to blink up cliff). Give spore calls an anti air mini slow against mechanical. There are tons of options that could open up the game more, while keep medivacs awesome.
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On June 11 2013 23:51 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent. I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs. You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE! It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life) I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
In ro8 you have a perfect split of 3-3-2. Having a 4-3-1 split - although it may look dire - is one of the two closest things you can have to it.
So it is no reason to complain really. With that low amount of players it is a bad idea to jump on the "OMG IMBA" bandwagon.
Also, over the last 3 months zergs got much better at dealing with the 4M, which you seem to forget.
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On June 11 2013 23:51 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent. I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs. You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE! It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life) I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right. 
Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community.
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I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already.
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EPT
