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On June 12 2013 01:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 01:27 DustbinBieber wrote:On June 12 2013 00:15 scypio wrote:On June 12 2013 00:05 DustbinBieber wrote:On June 11 2013 18:07 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:47 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:
[quote]
who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want?
I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable. The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs. And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else. Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows. Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety. What a disgraceful thing to say. I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell... It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers. Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails. yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50). But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced. What's your point?
Read the entire conversation, I was trying to say that a 50/50 winrate doesn't necessarily prove balance, and that balance shouldn't be defined by such a thing.
SC2 is very volatile and as a consequence enjoys very balanced-looking winrates, but it still has huge design flaws and relies a lot on luck, sometimes more than it relies on skill.
BW wasn't volatile at all and had, at some points, some horrid looking winrates (below 30%), it's still widely is considered to be the most balanced RTS game that's ever existed.
Winrates aren't balance. Design, gameplay elegance and skill-rewarding mechanics are.
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On June 12 2013 02:01 Buddy168 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 11:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote:
took them long enough to figuire it out.
sigh
better late then never.
I think it's fine. It's always good to let a metagame settle and see if the community can solve its own issues. Better than having a company patch the game at such a reactionary pace that it takes the innovation out of its players. Does that mean we should bring back BL/Infestor and just let players work it out? :O Please say it's so.
I think we let players "work out" Bl/Infestor for the better part of a year to no avail.
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I just dont understand people that don't get why the medivac can heal the hellbat. The reason is because if they can't, then there is only storms and colossi left to kill them in a timely fashion, both of which are fairly weak against tanks. Hellbats would walk over protoss armies without the bio tag. It's especially hilarious when protoss players want to buff the hellbat yet think they're nerfing it.
About hellbat drops, well I still think this is being blown out of proportions. Terran players that want to defend hellbats rather than going offensive hellbats themselves can quite easily do that. Infact it's quite easy to scout it coming and prevent the hellbats from droppping in the mineral line. So yeah, while I thought initially hellbat drops were a problem in TvT I learned to actually deal with them. A positive thing too is that 1 base play can be countered quite similarly, with vikings and WMs(admittedly that leaves Luci's thor opening still strong).
For TvP and TvZ I still don't understand why people are complaining. Both is mech a lot weaker than bio in the MUs, but both races also have quite decent defense against them. Also hellbat drops can be quite dangerous and open yourself up to allins, since non-hellbat units willl be late.
I'd certainly hope if they are going to be touching the unit, they'd focus more on keeping it away from bio play, rather than nerfing it straight up.
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On June 11 2013 18:42 fenrysk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 13:05 Waxangel wrote:
fix the medivac, not the hellbat
harassment has become so easy it's no longer impressive I'm with Wax on this. Compared against the WoL Blue Flame Hellion drops, the hellbat threat pretty much lies in the fact that medivac boost allows high speed pick up and re-drop of hellbats to the escaping scv clusters, even if scvs are pulled and split (which is the proper response to a unit as slow as the hellbat, but with the current availability of boost technology, the hellbat's natural weakness of slow speed is nullified), where as in WoL, because of the speed nerfs to medivacs early in WoL, hellion drops relied on the hellion's own ground speed for chasing down workers, and thus could be defended passively by simcity or using other units to block. The power of the re-drop within the main on selective targets is so powerful that soft-counters like marauders and tanks die because of the quick surrounds made available by medivac boosts. the fact that hellbats receive healing with their bio tag is only icing on the problem. Perhaps disable the medivac boost ability if there are any mechanical units in the medivac? It would but more risk on the attacker, because you couldn't always hot-pickup out of the drop zone. However a noticeable con to this solution is that it endangers a lot of current battlefield tactics that revolve around hellbat drops on the battlefront (ie boosting to drop within or behind a cluster of bio units in all Terran matchups). Such drops would theoretically still be possible but would be significantly more vulnerable to anti-air units like marines, hydras, and stalkers... But then perhaps it would encourage more direct pushes with hellbats that would actually make use of it's bio tag. I think that a pre-igniter change will help, but won't solve the core problem.
It was impressive in WoL because it got to the point of being almost impossible. Harassment isn't meant to be impressive. It's meant to be a viable tactic. Multi pronged harassment while simultaneously winning central engagements due to control/positioning is impressive. Defending said harassment while winning central engagements is impressive.
Drops themselves were never impressive.
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I dunno, I play Terran and I really like TvT in HotS. WoL seemed to be all about the slow tank push, I find the new game to be more exciting and dynamic. Hellbat drops are annoying, but by the time it comes you should have SOMETHING to deal with it. Hellions can kit the hellbats all day, and you SHOULD have a viking out to deny the medivac...if you dont have a viking then you have a banshee that can kill hellbats, or a medivac to load up to go backstab the other guy, or some marines and marauders
I think the 4 hellion drop is superior to the hellbat drop anyways, the hellions are faster and you can let them in on the edge of the base. They can catch up to the scvs when they try and run. The hellion drop comes earlier as well. Plus your hellions are useful for defending against hellbats in general, and most anti hellbat static D focuses on preventing the medi from lingering near the mineral line, so by dropping on the edge and running in you totally neutralize their turrets.
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On June 12 2013 02:01 Buddy168 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 11:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote:
took them long enough to figuire it out.
sigh
better late then never.
I think it's fine. It's always good to let a metagame settle and see if the community can solve its own issues. Better than having a company patch the game at such a reactionary pace that it takes the innovation out of its players. Does that mean we should bring back BL/Infestor and just let players work it out? :O Please say it's so.
This does not work out this way. Blizzard did not like the ghost-based late-game TvZ so they nerfed ghosts - even thou TvZ was fine in terms of numbers. They did it again with the queen + ov patch and nerfed the Terran into oblivion (last terran Code S victory in May 2012).
This means we do not nerf a balanced race unless we want BL/festor back. Or festor/ultra, or ultra/viper or whatever composition may evolve from lack of successful harass.
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On June 12 2013 02:02 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 01:32 Big J wrote:On June 12 2013 01:27 DustbinBieber wrote:On June 12 2013 00:15 scypio wrote:On June 12 2013 00:05 DustbinBieber wrote:On June 11 2013 18:07 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:47 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:[quote] I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable. The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs. And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else. Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows. Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety. What a disgraceful thing to say. I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell... It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers. Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails. yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50). But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced. What's your point? Read the entire conversation, I was trying to say that a 50/50 winrate doesn't necessarily prove balance, and that balance shouldn't be defined by such a thing. SC2 is very volatile and as a consequence enjoys very balanced-looking winrates, but it still has huge design flaws and relies a lot on luck, sometimes more than it relies on skill. BW wasn't volatile at all and had, at some points, some horrid looking winrates (below 30%), it's still widely is considered to be the most balanced RTS game that's ever existed. Winrates aren't balance. Design, gameplay elegance and skill-rewarding mechanics are.
No, that's not balance. Balance is balance. Design is design.
That's why we distinguish those terms to begin with.
50:50 is balanced
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Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
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On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Like SCVs, that are made out of the CC and are clearly a robot miner that can be healed and repaired at the same time.
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I have never lost to hellbat drops ever, sure it's harder in TvT but there is absolutley no problem to defend it if you prepare, late game zerg and protoss can easily deal with hellbats, terran who lack solid static defence need senstor towers and strategically placed upgraded turrets to deal with it, which actually isn't hard to set up.
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On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
How is a guy in a welding suit both biological and mechanical then? maybe you want to tell me?
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I've got a decent idea to help fix the situation.
1. Caduceus reactor- make this a required upgrade to allow the medivacs to heal hellbats. It only makes sense to me that an upgrade be required to heal a unit that is spawned from a factory. This would help in defending those early drops that somehow beat anything except a bunker in the mineral line with turrets for support.
2. Modify the burst damage so that the blue-flame upgrade allows for the bonus damage. Meaning, it would be more difficult to singe mineral lines early in the game.
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On June 12 2013 02:26 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... How is a guy in a welding suit both biological and mechanical then? maybe you want to tell me?
By that logic, the Thor is just a guy in a really big welding suit.
Hey! Maybe they'll make Thors Biological in the next patch 
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On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough...
Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
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On June 12 2013 02:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
Yet it becomes more durable. So we can conclude that Hellions have armor that's weaker then human flesh. Buff hellions
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On June 12 2013 02:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts.
Forget all that shit. WHY DO MUTALISK FLY THEIR WINGS IN SPACE?
All your demands for logic in this game a rendered null.
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On June 12 2013 02:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 02:31 Big J wrote:On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts. Yet it becomes more durable. So we can conclude that Hellions have armor that's weaker then human flesh. Buff hellions
Because it is in a less volatile form? You can't kill a hellbat by scratching a wheel or breaking an axle. And due to not even trying to move fast it can concentrate its more durable parts to serve as armor, instead of trying to be as aeordynamical as possible.
On June 12 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 02:31 Big J wrote:On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... Easy to explain. The hellion has biological interior (the driver kind of connects himself to the car). The transformation turns parts of them to the outside. The medivac can heal those parts. Forget all that shit. WHY DO MUTALISK FLY THEIR WINGS IN SPACE? All your demands for logic in this game a rendered null.
because they are stupid and don't understand that they could fly without doing so
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Very good change. The cost of Hellbat drop is almost irrelevant when compared when how early and much damage it can do. See what Innovation did to Alive in game 3. Not to mention about the bm mule.
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On June 11 2013 18:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
How about an upgrade requirement for medivac boost instead?
So require tech lab to research the medivac boost upgrade?
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Russian Federation18 Posts
It's not just about balance, it's that every TvT now starts with hellbat drops, because it's easy to execute, not very punishable and it leads to mech terran, which is better than bio, especially if you was succesfull with your drops early game.
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EPT
