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On June 12 2013 03:40 blastyblast21 wrote:
all zergs need is one spore and one spine. All toss needs is one cannon or photon overcharge. All Terran needs is a bunker and missile turret. I dont see the big deal people just need to be good at the game and learn how to deal with them. people should be nerfing toss, make them have skill to play.
And you tell that to the pros, who are better than 99% of the player base and still they can't defend against every hellbat drop even when they see it coming.
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yes zerg do need to make a spine and a spore . . .down 2 drones . . .terran turret, and bunker . . hmm can salvage one of these and the mule is instant call down and will mine 275 over its life, zerg has to remake drones wait . . .still only 5 mins per trip. Toss cannon, ok decent spend, but wait chrono out those probes sucka . . oh wait im zerg some mad push is coming make more units . . terran and toss simply keep making . . .oh and back on topic . . .they are dropping in 2 places at once . . .zerg race weakest pound for pound, have to split a scrambled morphing army most rally to death . . . yea . . im no pro but the ease of dropping (now with toss) zerg has to sacrifice ALL eco production and lose some for stat defense as at these points in the game we rarely have much other than lings in roaches . . pick up . .cant shoot air . . hmmmm. queen good but wont kill a medivac before the major damage is done . . .so looks like the answer is to build queens like drones? hmmm i wonder
Its why i love this game, when we figure this out it will be zerg op again . . but for now bane bust . . .its leet
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You should only be able to make Hellions out of the factory, but with the upgrade you can transform them. Also nerf light damage by 5 and make Blueflame upgrade work on Hellbats.
MB upgrade should be changed to cost 100/100.
Anyways my suggestion, tired of seeing this in competitive play every game.
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On June 12 2013 04:01 StatixEx wrote:
yes zerg do need to make a spine and a spore . . .down 2 drones . . .terran turret, and bunker . . hmm can salvage one of these and the mule is instant call down and will mine 275 over its life, zerg has to remake drones wait . . .still only 5 mins per trip. Toss cannon, ok decent spend, but wait chrono out those probes sucka . . oh wait im zerg some mad push is coming make more units . . terran and toss simply keep making . . .oh and back on topic . . .they are dropping in 2 places at once . . .zerg race weakest pound for pound, have to split a scrambled morphing army most rally to death . . . yea . . im no pro but the ease of dropping (now with toss) zerg has to sacrifice ALL eco production and lose some for stat defense as at these points in the game we rarely have much other than lings in roaches . . pick up . .cant shoot air . . hmmmm. queen good but wont kill a medivac before the major damage is done . . .so looks like the answer is to build queens like drones? hmmm i wonder
Its why i love this game, when we figure this out it will be zerg op again . . but for now bane bust . . .its leet
Poor zerg... how come they can be so week, yet win 3/7 premier tournaments including Code S - defeating worlds strongest Terran in the finals, how come they have almost two times as many players in WCS premier KR as those ugly OP terrans with their hellbats?
Clearly, zerg players are so much better than terrans they can go with nothing less than 70%+ winrate. No way they could settle for the stupid 50% 
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so hellbat does 30 dmg vs light now without upgrades, to not 2shoot workers (thats what this is about right?), you would need to decrease this by
8 for TvT
or 11 for other races...
i think this is a bit much, even if you can get it back with the upgrade, until then, who would want hellbats?
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On June 12 2013 00:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 23:51 Foxxan wrote:On June 11 2013 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent. I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs. You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE! It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life) I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right.  Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community.
So leenock doesnt count, oh thats right
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On June 12 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... Like SCVs, that are made out of the CC and are clearly a robot miner that can be healed and repaired at the same time.
When's the last time you've seen scv drops wipe out an entire mineral line in mere seconds?
You know better than that.
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On June 12 2013 04:17 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 00:10 Big J wrote:On June 11 2013 23:51 Foxxan wrote:On June 11 2013 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent. I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs. You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE! It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life) I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right. Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community. So leenock doesnt count, oh thats right
Maybe you should look up the definition of "most". There were 10 zergs in the tournament.
Leenock and Life were Code S caliber.
Stephano was a Code S wannabe.
And the rest were simply at least a level below.
e: also, Leenock lost to Innovation and Life won the whole thing.
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On June 12 2013 04:20 Phoenix2003 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 02:25 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote:
Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL.
I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"...
Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... Like SCVs, that are made out of the CC and are clearly a robot miner that can be healed and repaired at the same time. When's the last time you've seen scv drops wipe out an entire mineral line in mere seconds? You know better than that.
What are you talking about or did you bother to read at all? I was talking about healing and how none of it makes sense.
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My bad. We're actually on the same page, then.
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Once again Blizzard is doing what they should be and taking it slow. People want things to be nerfed or patched the moment there's a really strong strategy, but it takes time for counters to come up. I hope people haven't forgotten about PvZ in broodwar before Bisu came along....
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easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
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I've been playing SC2 for my third day now and you should nerf hell bats and double the goodness of Ultralisks, thanks.
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The problem is not the hellbat... its the freakin medivac speed that makes it way to easy.
Open your eyes david kim.
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On June 12 2013 04:17 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 00:10 Big J wrote:On June 11 2013 23:51 Foxxan wrote:On June 11 2013 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent. I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs. You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE! It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life) I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg And most of the other Zergs weren't as high calibre. It was like two Code S Zergs (Life and Stephano) against a bunch of Code S Terrans. And hey, there were some Protoss' around as well, but who cares, right. Anyways, what I mean to say is that the lineup basically meant that there was one clear tournament favorite (Life) and some toplevel other guys, which happened to be mostly Terrans. Admittedly, to get this kind of view you'd need to step back a kilometre from TL, and calmly consider the lineup instead of getting overhyped by ELEPHAAAAAAAANTTS, FLAAAAAASHHHHHHHHHH, TL FIGHTIIIIIING and whatever other nongamerelated stuff determines who is a favorite in the eyes of the (TL) community. So leenock doesnt count, oh thats right
leenock counts as well, forgot about him. That makes 3 Code S Zergs.
Compared to 6 Code S Terrans at that time. And 4 Code S Protoss. Still pretty hard outnumbered.
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On June 12 2013 04:13 Naphal wrote:
so hellbat does 30 dmg vs light now without upgrades, to not 2shoot workers (thats what this is about right?), you would need to decrease this by
8 for TvT
or 11 for other races...
i think this is a bit much, even if you can get it back with the upgrade, until then, who would want hellbats?
You could increase their range/AOE? Or would that still be too shitty.
Maybe you could also scale their splash so at range 1 it does the full 30 and then at 2 it does 20 and at 3 it does 10 or some such.
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The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
I'd say bump the cost of hellbats up to 200 or something. You can still get them cheap through the transform upgrade from hellions if you want, but if you try for early harass it'll cost you.
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nerf the damage and make them influenced by blueflame seems to be a nice way to reduce the strength to some margin but dont change to much about the balance
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On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote:
easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
User was temp banned for this post.
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People were saying they were concerned about the late game, but two hellbats dropped does the same amount of damage as letting a few banelings by, or a storm drop etc. Yes the costs can be different, but it's basically now that late game each race will have a super strong way of killing off workers if you do not react very very quickly.
The issue is early-mid game, but if Blizzard thinks they need to change things, I'm sure they'll find a gentle way. What often happens though is that people are slowly piecing together ways of dealing with a previously dominant strategy, and even a gentle nerf results in it being totally ineffective
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EPT
