EPTIt's not a game design problem, it's a player problem.
The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark.
David Kim comments on Hellbat drops - Page 20
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
It's not a game design problem, it's a player problem. The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I don't understand why people DON'T build AA defences at their borders past 10min or when they make a push to fend off possible Hellbat drops! It's not a game design problem, it's a player problem. The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark. you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again. No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:22 MrGh0st wrote: Can someone just tell me "You're an idiot" if I am, but am I insane for thinking that a fucking MECHANICAL ground unit made from a FACTORY should not be BIOLOGICAL. I guess David Kim could say "There's a dude inside the Hellbat"... Then by this logic I suppose Thors will be Biological/heal-able by Medivacs soon enough... How much sense does it make for dudes in huge power armor to get "healed" anyway? Wouldn't the "healing" make more sense if it just repaired the armor? | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:30 MrGh0st wrote: By that logic, the Thor is just a guy in a really big welding suit. Hey! Maybe they'll make Thors Biological in the next patch  And marauders should be mechanical by that definition... You make no sense. FYI: May I remind everyone that in WoL, BIO-FU*KING-STEEL WAS INVENTED, so by LORE, medivacs are be able to heal mechanical units already! | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:55 Bagi wrote: How much sense does it make for dudes in huge power armor to get "healed" anyway? Wouldn't the "healing" make more sense if it just repaired the armor? Technically, isn't a medivac beam just a bunch of nanobots? If they can be programmed to heal wounds they can probably be programmed to repair armor | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:19 Big J wrote: No, that's not balance. Balance is balance. Design is design. That's why we distinguish those terms to begin with. 50:50 is balanced 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others. Even in GSL and proleague there is hard to define skill of the players. Some is better then other, players like innovation, soulkey, sOs will be bound for a good placement purely because of their skill. But players like DonRaeGU, Teaja, Maru are by all means good but not someones I would see as GSL champions. So if Soulkey only meet terrans with various "skill" in a tournament and goes through all then that would give terran a pretty shitty winratio against zerg. But is it because Soulkey plays zerg or is it because he is soulkey and cut through his opponent like butter that been in the sun to long? The clear answer must be that he is that skilled. Just as an example as easily been Innovation cutting through some zergs. This clearly implies that winratio is not a solid correlation with balance since it does not take into account the skill parameter. With that said the win ratio can be used as an indicator but even that does not say much what the problem is or if it is a problem. Maybe there is some strategy aspects that does not been figured out or such that is the core problem and not a balance factor. Or is TvT fine since I promise you that terran will win 50:50 in that match-up. ------------------------------------ On topic I really like the hellbat drop plays but I think the dropper has a significant upperhand over the defender. Since the booster give such mobility makes it harder for the defender. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:55 freetgy wrote: you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again. No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance. Then IMHO, Blizzard should BUFF the AA not nerf the hellbat. Straight up combat-wise, hellbats are pretty underwhelming with their slow movement and bulky hull size of 4. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:55 freetgy wrote: you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again. No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance. He used zealots to defend... That's like saying upgraded baneling drops need to be nerfed because overlords only cost 100m and banelings move too fast to kite. | ||
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stratmatt
United States913 Posts
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NuKE[vZ]
United States249 Posts
I'm no pro but I am definitely mid level(High diamond) and some guys I play that execute it properly rape me everytime... marines get roasted and so do the scvs it's insanely hard... you can get a few mines out at your mineral line but the hellbat has incredible armor and top that with the health regeneration from the medivac it's almost impossible to hold. | ||
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superpanda27
111 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:25 ImperialFist wrote: I have never lost to hellbat drops ever, sure it's harder in TvT but there is absolutley no problem to defend it if you prepare, late game zerg and protoss can easily deal with hellbats, terran who lack solid static defence need senstor towers and strategically placed upgraded turrets to deal with it, which actually isn't hard to set up. It's the efficiency of the hellbat + the medivac boost that is the problem. Because the medivac can fly by and take 1-2 less shots of a single base defense due to the boost and still be able to drop the hellbat on a mineral, is kind of crazy. Then couple that with the burst damage. You don't automatically lose to a hellbat drop, they just do their damage no matter what. They force base defenses early in the game hurting economy, force loss of mining time, and have the ability to destroy worker lines in a couple of seconds. You can prepare all you want, but it takes one solid hellbat drop to put a player significantly behind in economy while terran does not risk falling far behind doing the drop. You can react faster to the other drops and they don't destroy mineral lines in 1-2 volleys. Hellbat drops compared to other types of drops cost very little to Terran players (all include medivac cost): 2 hellbat drop 300 minerals 100 gas 8 marine drop 500 minerals 100 gas 4 marine 2 widowmine 450 minerals 150 gas 4 marine 2 marauder 500 minerals 150 gas 4 marauder 500 minerals 150 gas 4 hellions 500 minerals 100 gas | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19372 Posts
On June 12 2013 01:52 BisuDagger wrote: Here's a new idea. Hellbats start off with single target damage but after an upgrade, (with or without armory debatable) then it can have splash damage again. Did my idea make to much sense to be commented on because it clearly solves the issue without involving the Pre igniter upgrade. And adding a new upgrade to the tech lab is fine because siege mode was removed from the list. Using the Pre igniter upgrade to balance damage still benefits terran as now they also have blue flame hellions on the field, where as a separate makes choosing a tech path more involved. | ||
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bananafone
68 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On June 12 2013 03:05 stratmatt wrote: I dunno bout you guys, but ive found that marines can stop helion drops as long as you split them properly when engaging...i dont ever do hellbat drops myself but i dont find them very hard to hold off anyway. I don't find it that hard to hold off as long as I can dodge the initial burst dmg. I think that is the main issue, and the pre-ignighter will fix the chance of Hellbats ending a game very early on. After the early game, if you lose to Hellbat drops its completely your fault. Kind of like not catching the banling/storm drop. However as a Terran I still find it a little silly that Hellbats have so much HP. I play both Terran and Zerg. Even though at a point it gets hard to get into the Zerg base with a Hellbat Drop. I also know that once your in, Zerg has to really commit to getting you out of there. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 12 2013 02:45 superpanda27 wrote: So require tech lab to research the medivac boost upgrade? Don't know. All i know is that mech DOES NOT need any nerfs at this point. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others. There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me. Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating. If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so. The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance. The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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blastyblast21
United States61 Posts
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blastyblast21
United States61 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others. Even in GSL and proleague there is hard to define skill of the players. Some is better then other, players like innovation, soulkey, sOs will be bound for a good placement purely because of their skill. But players like DonRaeGU, Teaja, Maru are by all means good but not someones I would see as GSL champions. So if Soulkey only meet terrans with various "skill" in a tournament and goes through all then that would give terran a pretty shitty winratio against zerg. But is it because Soulkey plays zerg or is it because he is soulkey and cut through his opponent like butter that been in the sun to long? The clear answer must be that he is that skilled. Just as an example as easily been Innovation cutting through some zergs. This clearly implies that winratio is not a solid correlation with balance since it does not take into account the skill parameter. With that said the win ratio can be used as an indicator but even that does not say much what the problem is or if it is a problem. Maybe there is some strategy aspects that does not been figured out or such that is the core problem and not a balance factor. Or is TvT fine since I promise you that terran will win 50:50 in that match-up. ------------------------------------ On topic I really like the hellbat drop plays but I think the dropper has a significant upperhand over the defender. Since the booster give such mobility makes it harder for the defender. Yeah, that's why we watch the winrates at the highest level. Because then 50:50 means that the best players of race X wins 50 of 100 games against the best players of race Y. But yeah, we can't determine whether the best of race X are actually way worse than the best of race Y - which starts by defining "skill" in a game where various situations/races etc. require different kinds of skills... But you are probably right, time to nerf T/P to the ground It just happens so that the top 10.000 Zerg players are so vastly better than their Terran/Protoss counterparts and this balances out with Zerg being completly underpowered... lol And yeah, TvT is fine balancewise. But the viewing experience is pretty bad a lot of times. | ||
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