On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
lol what? You could have always dropped 2hellbats if you wanted. You know... noone forces you to put more units into a dropship then you need to achieve what you want.
The 4 cargo nerf was brilliant. Else we would be seeing drops with hellbats, that drop 2hellbats in one mineral line and 2 in the other. Then you are not half mining, but not mining at all...
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Being a terran player, I cannot wait til the hellbat nerf. This will allow for us to abuse widow mine drops and 12 minute, 3 unpunished CC builds to shine with our medivac, mine, marine efficient trading against zergs. One thing after another will become nerfed and finally our race will become balanced. It really isn't fair that I was winning ~20% vs 1700 pt protoss/zerg players with the 2 mine/marine drop -instantly- with fake pressure in the front.
TvT will actually be fun to watch again because you'll see multiple starport reactor medivac constant bio drops everywhere.
GL observers. You'll probably have a few more months to prepare dat obs apm though!
On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
If you would cut your legs of, you could save a lot of money in pants and shoes.
They need to do something about the hellbat because I'm sick of the TvT matchup being about who can hellbat drop better. Some players don't want to open up hellbat drops, but they do so at the risk of losing to a hellbat drop. Players are forced into hellbat wars because if you don't join them like innovation, then you just die to them like mvp. I don't blame players for hellbat dropping because it's the most efficient way to win in TvT.
On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
If you would cut your legs of, you could save a lot of money in pants and shoes.
I don't quite agree with the person you're quoting either, but you're not doing anyone any favors by commenting with such illogical bs. At least think before posting, jesus christ.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops?
Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
On June 12 2013 05:25 Canucklehead wrote: They need to do something about the hellbat because I'm sick of the TvT matchup being about who can hellbat drop better. Some players don't want to open up hellbat drops, but they do so at the risk of losing to a hellbat drop. Players are forced into hellbat wars because if you don't join them like innovation, then you just die to them like mvp. I don't blame players for hellbat dropping because it's the most efficient way to win in TvT.
I couldn't have said this any better. This is definitely what it feels like TvT has come down to. Demuslim shared the same beliefs and stated on stream about how he will never succumb to the style everyone is incorporating in their TvT. A week later (I shit you not) he did it every single TvT I watched. When I confronted him in chat about why he was so hellbent (lol) against using them yet uses the opening religiously.. he said "well, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.." That really opened my eyes and made me less angry at those abusing the strat because it really was the only way to win unless you were certain your opponent wasn't going hellbat comps/hellbat drops.
On June 12 2013 04:01 StatixEx wrote: yes zerg do need to make a spine and a spore . . .down 2 drones . . .terran turret, and bunker . . hmm can salvage one of these and the mule is instant call down and will mine 275 over its life, zerg has to remake drones wait . . .still only 5 mins per trip. Toss cannon, ok decent spend, but wait chrono out those probes sucka . . oh wait im zerg some mad push is coming make more units . . terran and toss simply keep making . . .oh and back on topic . . .they are dropping in 2 places at once . . .zerg race weakest pound for pound, have to split a scrambled morphing army most rally to death . . . yea . . im no pro but the ease of dropping (now with toss) zerg has to sacrifice ALL eco production and lose some for stat defense as at these points in the game we rarely have much other than lings in roaches . . pick up . .cant shoot air . . hmmmm. queen good but wont kill a medivac before the major damage is done . . .so looks like the answer is to build queens like drones? hmmm i wonder
Its why i love this game, when we figure this out it will be zerg op again . . but for now bane bust . . .its leet
Poor zerg... how come they can be so week, yet win 3/7 premier tournaments including Code S - defeating worlds strongest Terran in the finals, how come they have almost two times as many players in WCS premier KR as those ugly OP terrans with their hellbats?
Clearly, zerg players are so much better than terrans they can go with nothing less than 70%+ winrate. No way they could settle for the stupid 50%
you do realize that the zergpool in this Seasons WCS KR was decided in WoL so the amount if zergs in WCS KR season 1 can never ever be said to have anything to do with HOTS balance.
And the way you view balance seems utterly stupid to me. You basically would be fine with one race being completly OP in one part of the MU and the other in another part thus making the winratios 50-50. I myself would certinly prefer a game where even in the lategame the mathup is even in winratios.
Sure, you can argue that even winratios gives a balanced game but that's such a narrowminded way to view balance.
I myself wouldn't really like to see zergs feeling forced to Roach bane all in every game to beat terrans even if it results in a balanced winratio.
On June 12 2013 05:02 Phoenix2003 wrote: Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
I'm not sure you're aware of this buddy but it's not 2010 anymore.
On June 12 2013 04:58 Kettchup wrote: The main problem is how cheap they are compared to how much damage they can do. Funnily enough, the nerf to medivacs only holding 2 of them made this worse, as a successful defense costs the harasser less now.
If you would cut your legs of, you could save a lot of money in pants and shoes.
I don't quite agree with the person you're quoting either, but you're not doing anyone any favors by commenting with such illogical bs. At least think before posting, jesus christ.
Maybe to graphic but not stupid, unless you didn't understand what was wrong with the post i quoted. Definitely to much Dexter though lol
On June 12 2013 05:03 Pazuzu wrote: People were saying they were concerned about the late game, but two hellbats dropped does the same amount of damage as letting a few banelings by, or a storm drop etc. Yes the costs can be different, but it's basically now that late game each race will have a super strong way of killing off workers if you do not react very very quickly.
The issue is early-mid game, but if Blizzard thinks they need to change things, I'm sure they'll find a gentle way. What often happens though is that people are slowly piecing together ways of dealing with a previously dominant strategy, and even a gentle nerf results in it being totally ineffective
See that comparison cannot not be made cause 1. Banelings die after doing 1 hit, they aren't going to keep damage, neither can they be healed or are tanky whatsoever. 2 Storms rely on a pretty expensive unit with upgrades and even then you need the energy to even cast storm, ofc they are not tanky either or can be healed.
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
wow, someone is obviously having a hard time PvT... try to keep balancewhine like this to yourself. Mech TvP not working is a myth? well then, I guess you have alot of progames to prove that?
May I ask what lvl you are? I mean, most antiair counter all air pretty well.. marines are strong sure but you probably should never be in a situation where you are pure air vs pure marine besides early midgame :p
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops?
There were 7 premier tournaments so far. Protoss made it to the final 4 times and won once. A perfect split would mean 2-3 victories and 4-5 appearances in the finals.
Given such a small sample size I can tell you, that Naniwa is singlehandedly resposible for Protoss not achivieng their statistical goals in terms of premier tournament wins.
Is that enough to warrant a buff? I don't think so. They have a better representation now in both WCS Eu and WCS Korea, also they are looking good in the pro league... this let's me think that they will do better on their own in the upcoming months.
Nevertheless toss is my number 1 pick for a buff and I would opt for it should the gap between them and other races widen. Right now I feel that they are closing the gap.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
It is really simple for me. 2 guys go into lobby, each of them picks a race and then they play a BoX. They both play to win. The one who won is the one who displayed more skill - or maybe had more luck.
sOs forGG ---------------------------------------------- not missing a beat 9 7 understanding of economy 10 6 strategic choices 8 8 positioning 7 8 ---------------------------------------------- total 34 29
Thera you go, sOs wins game1 34:29.
Figure ice-skating skill-based starcraft where winning does not matter. Someone should run such tournament, I'd watch it 100%
On June 12 2013 05:02 Phoenix2003 wrote: Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
I'm not sure you're aware of this buddy but it's not 2010 anymore.
lmao
I don't necessarily want to say one thing's OP or another, but unless you thought WoL was the definition of perfection, everything is on the table for balance discussion, especially when new interactions arise from new units.
On June 12 2013 02:53 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I don't understand why people DON'T build AA defences at their borders past 10min or when they make a push to fend off possible Hellbat drops!
It's not a game design problem, it's a player problem.
The earliest hellbat drop I remember is at the 7:30min mark.
you realize that Terran doesn't care if they lose the drop as long as it does provide the neccessary damage, which is one of the drops problem. Look at SoS vs. Innovation Game 1 and say that again.
No strategy in SC2 should be risk free and have some drawback when it miserably. Else it will makes for very bad gaming experiance.
I'd argue it isn't risk free. Those drops didn't just roll over and die and WHILE they may not have gotten an adequate number of probe killes (approx 5-6?) they kept the protoss army stationed on his base for 5+ minutes while inno took a safe third as well as gave constant information on the protoss army composition.
I'd argue that, perhaps, there has to be a little more cost but you're completely wrong if you think the drop is "risk free" or that his drop play didn't result in success.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: 50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me.
Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating.
If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so.
The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance.
The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance.
By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops?
There were 7 premier tournaments so far. Protoss made it to the final 4 times and won once. A perfect split would mean 2-3 victories and 4-5 appearances in the semis.
Given such a small sample size I can tell you, that Naniwa is singlehandedly resposible for Protoss not achivieng their statistical goals in terms of premier tournament wins.
Is that enough to warrant a buff? I don't think so. They have a better representation now in both WCS Eu and WCS Korea, also they are looking good in the pro league... this let's me think that they will do better on their own in the upcoming months.
Nevertheless toss is my number 1 pick for a buff and I would opt for it should the gap between them and other races widen. Right now I feel that they are closing the gap.
On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote: Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
It is really simple for me. 2 guys go into lobby, each of them picks a race and then they play a BoX. They both play to win. The one who won is the one who displayed more skill - or maybe had more luck.
sOs forGG ---------------------------------------------- not missing a beat 9 7 understanding of economy 10 6 strategic choices 8 8 positioning 7 8 ---------------------------------------------- total 34 29
Thera you go, sOs wins game1 34:29.
Figure ice-skating skill-based starcraft where winning does not matter. Someone should run such tournament, I'd watch it 100%
Who is saying winning doesn't matter? All I am saying and alot of people with me is that winning percentages isn't some magical way to prove balance and shouldn't be the only thing you look at by any means. You need to dig deeper and see in what parts of the game does X beat Y and the other way around. There are such a thing as good and bad balance no matter if it is actually balanced in winratios.
This "figure-skating" skill argument is just silly and you only look foolish trying to push it. Obviously that is not what people want.
On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote: easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now
You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here.
Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc.
Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you.
lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta?
People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether.
Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations.
The only reason mech works somewhat is the lack of experience of toss players. I mech always vs toss, but at least WoL had a nice late game transition, which is also gutted in HotS. But well, we were complaining about marines countering all stargate units, how rude! Especially since terran has so many others counters to toss air, right? Oh wait, thats right, there isnt much else. Oh sure there are a few units that do good against 1 or 2 toss air units, should as thor vs phoenix, but in general the marine is the only unit cost effective vs toss air (and not even population effective vs quite some toss air).
EPT
