|
On June 12 2013 06:14 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 05:54 Phoenix2003 wrote:On June 12 2013 05:08 iky43210 wrote:On June 12 2013 05:02 Phoenix2003 wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote:
easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here. Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc. Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you. lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta? People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether. Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations. The only reason mech works somewhat is the lack of experience of toss players. I mech always vs toss, but at least WoL had a nice late game transition, which is also gutted in HotS. But well, we were complaining about marines countering all stargate units, how rude! Especially since terran has so many others counters to toss air, right? Oh wait, thats right, there isnt much else. Oh sure there are a few units that do good against 1 or 2 toss air units, should as thor vs phoenix, but in general the marine is the only unit cost effective vs toss air (and not even population effective vs quite some toss air).
So then don't play mech TvP....
mind=blown
It's like me complaining that I can't play PvZ strategies against Protoss.
|
On June 12 2013 06:10 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 06:02 scypio wrote:On June 12 2013 05:31 Elldar wrote:On June 12 2013 03:30 scypio wrote:On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote:
50:50 just mean that out of 100 hundred games both race got 50 wins. That does not say anything about which players who played against eachother or what type of strategy that was used. Even the skill of the players are really disambigious. 50:50 is really just a number with weak correlation to balance. Since balance has to be defined as when two equally skilled players meet then they have same chance of winning ,e.i., 50:50. With ladder two equally skilled player will rarely meet eachother even at the end of the season considering how much time both has spent playing so the overall mmr will be shifted where the one with more time spent more time playing will have a more accurate mmr then the others.
There is one skill that counts in starcraft - winning. Therefore balancing the number around number of victories for each race at the very top level seems solid to me. Otherwise you would need a set of judges watching every game and giving each player points for their skillful actions. This is pushing SC2 towards figure ice-skating. If you are not playing to win but to display your figure ice-skating, pardon me, starcraft 2 gosu skills then do not talk about the balance. Yesterday I played viking only vs elite zerg AI and I won. I feel that if took way more skill than doing so with mech or 4M. Now should I play viking-only TvZ on ladder and claim other races imba every time I lose? I don't think so. The player pool and number of premier tournaments/year is large enough to make the stats matter. Winning is the only skill that must be taken into consideration when talking about balance. The metagame, compositions, entertainment value, "gosu" skill, macrocraft, NR15 and wellcome to hellbats is something else. Maybe they should be addressed sooner or later but they are not balance. By your standard protoss desperatly needs a buff since they do not seem to win big tournaments ? So blizz should focus on that instead of hellbat drops? There were 7 premier tournaments so far. Protoss made it to the final 4 times and won once. A perfect split would mean 2-3 victories and 4-5 appearances in the semis. Given such a small sample size I can tell you, that Naniwa is singlehandedly resposible for Protoss not achivieng their statistical goals in terms of premier tournament wins. Is that enough to warrant a buff? I don't think so. They have a better representation now in both WCS Eu and WCS Korea, also they are looking good in the pro league... this let's me think that they will do better on their own in the upcoming months. Nevertheless toss is my number 1 pick for a buff and I would opt for it should the gap between them and other races widen. Right now I feel that they are closing the gap. On June 12 2013 03:00 Elldar wrote:
Besides going mass viking and winning is not skillful since it will only work against an opponent worse than you and going for mass viking display lack of strategic skill. I don't gt what you mean by skill but it is certainly not what I mean. As I see you think that a total scrub should be able to win aganst a code s player. Skill is not doing some tricky the word for that is gimmick. Skill is not missing a beat, have good understanding of economy, strategic choices, positioning and such. Besides winning is not a measurement of balance since bad players can win against better ones consistingly because of imbalances.
Such an imbalance could be that hellbat drops is harder to defend than to execute or overall too strong.
It is really simple for me. 2 guys go into lobby, each of them picks a race and then they play a BoX. They both play to win. The one who won is the one who displayed more skill - or maybe had more luck. You guys seem to see it different. When was the last time a worse player lost vs a better one? Oh wait, let me pick something for you: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/b/413663426?t=2h05m10sForGG vs sOs G1: the result:
sOs forGG
----------------------------------------------
not missing a beat 9 7
understanding of economy 10 6
strategic choices 8 8
positioning 7 8
----------------------------------------------
total 34 29
Thera you go, sOs wins game1 34:29. Figure ice-skating skill-based starcraft where winning does not matter. Someone should run such tournament, I'd watch it 100%  Who is saying winning doesn't matter? All I am saying and alot of people with me is that winning percentages isn't some magical way to prove balance and shouldn't be the only thing you look at by any means. You need to dig deeper and see in what parts of the game does X beat Y and the other way around. There are such a thing as good and bad balance no matter if it is actually balanced in winratios. This "figure-skating" skill argument is just silly and you only look foolish trying to push it. Obviously that is not what people want.
Balance is pure maths. There is nothing more to it. Did you see "bad players winning against better ones consentingly" in the WCS? Who are the bad ones? Who are the good ones?
Right now the math part adds up. The viewer experience may not add up. And yeah, I'd like watch some better games too. But - first of all - I want the game to be balanced. I want to guess the outcome of every match based upon players skill and not their races. This makes sense only if the winrates are close to 50:50.
I've seen before what happens when you patch the metagame using balance patches and it was ugly. The balance is good now, if you want to patch the meta then you need to do it in a way that will not affect the balance. It's not as simple as "lets nerf the hellbat".
|
What deep insight and ingenuity from David Kim. Bravo sir. The internet applauds.
|
On June 12 2013 06:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 06:14 Sissors wrote:On June 12 2013 05:54 Phoenix2003 wrote:On June 12 2013 05:08 iky43210 wrote:On June 12 2013 05:02 Phoenix2003 wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 iky43210 wrote:
easier to cry about balance and nerfs than to actually learn to play. We have seen this already with mines, new reapers, speedmedviacs months back. Hell, some pros even convinced Terran is broken and unbeatable, cough idra catz apollo most na zergs, but it seems people are starting to have adapt and no trouble defending against them. People finally start shutting up when win statistics rolls in and zergs are still winning tourneys left and right.
Even in the open beta people are convinced 8/8 rax reaper rush is unbeatable as zerg. Not such a viable strategy now You do realize that speedvacs, hellbats, widow mines(which led to the spore w/o evo chamber requirement, for example) were problematic during the beta stages, right? This isn't some NEW thing here. Even IF this change were to happen, you still got OP marines,mules, salvage, speedvacs,unstoppable detection,etc. Don't worry, Blizzard still loves you. lol op marines and mules, bunker salvages? What is this, wing of liberty beta? People were crying none stop about mines and speedmedivacs for months, and if you still are crying about them now then you might want to consider getting coaching or quit altogether. Those units were a problem then and they're a problem now since nothing was done about said unit during beta. Hence this thread and others. Those units should've been nerfed (or non-existant) and we wouldn't be in the situation now. The fact that marines can counter all stargate units is a joke. There's a reason I don't have ANY sympathy about mech not working vs. p.(which in itself is a myth, but whatever) Whose crying(besides terrans wanting to keep their op stuff)? I 'm making observations. The only reason mech works somewhat is the lack of experience of toss players. I mech always vs toss, but at least WoL had a nice late game transition, which is also gutted in HotS. But well, we were complaining about marines countering all stargate units, how rude! Especially since terran has so many others counters to toss air, right? Oh wait, thats right, there isnt much else. Oh sure there are a few units that do good against 1 or 2 toss air units, should as thor vs phoenix, but in general the marine is the only unit cost effective vs toss air (and not even population effective vs quite some toss air). So then don't play mech TvP.... mind=blown It's like me complaining that I can't play PvZ strategies against Protoss.
LOL made me spill my cereal
But yes, I agree completely
|
Some of the ideas here are pretty outrageous, I have to say...
I like the idea of having the damage of hellbats reduced and applying blue flame as damage upgrade sounds good. But maybe something can also be done with the servos upgrade, I don't see it being used often, in my games or pro games.
|
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On June 12 2013 07:34 papapanda wrote:
Some of the ideas here are pretty outrageous, I have to say...
I like the idea of having the damage of hellbats reduced and applying blue flame as damage upgrade sounds good. But maybe something can also be done with the servos upgrade, I don't see it being used often, in my games or pro games.
I use it pretty often.
The trouble is, a lot of the time Hellions are really good, but by the time you can use them really efficiently you've either got the upgrade long before or not at all. I think they really should make it so you can't build hellbats straight off and make it only avaliable through the servos. Hellions are still, IMO better at harassment than Hellbats are.
|
The medivac seems very strong already. How about it cannot boost if it has heavy units? A heavy unit would take 4 slots or more in the medivac. You could still bio drop, hellion drop, but it wouldn't be as easy to boost around slow units like the hellbat.
|
On June 12 2013 04:54 Mantaza wrote:
The problem is not the hellbat... its the freakin medivac speed that makes it way to easy.
Open your eyes david kim.
I love it how people are desperately trying to get terran harassment generally nerfed because of a very specific problem in one aspect of the match up.
Not going to work, guys. We know what you're doing.
|
On June 11 2013 15:17 saltis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 10:57 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I feel like the most obvious solution would be to just make them un-healable by medivacs, but could be repaired. Adding to the pre igniter seems weird to me. I still feel they would be a viable way to harass and would even be good late game vs zealots if they werent healable, but its the fact that once they do drop they take so damn long to kill that makes them lethal.
Wedging 2-4 hellbats inside mineral lines makes them invincible vs zerglings etc. LOL thats the whole point, They suppose to be hard counter to zerglings and zealots.
are you serious? Taking away the fact that they can be healed by medivacs, a good player using them properly will still ABSOLUTELY hard counter those units. You're a fool if you think otherwise.
|
On June 12 2013 08:01 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 04:54 Mantaza wrote:
The problem is not the hellbat... its the freakin medivac speed that makes it way to easy.
Open your eyes david kim. I love it how people are desperately trying to get terran harassment generally nerfed because of a very specific problem in one aspect of the match up. Not going to work, guys. We know what you're doing.
There's a problem when a medevac can pass over a significant investment of static defense and still manage to drop with impunity. There's a problem when medvacs are guaranteed to make it to the opponent's mineral line. There's a problem when Terrans are not punished for being careless with their medivacs and can instead just waltz off after a battle and continue to build up a lethal cloud. There's a problem when a flock of mutas has to chase a medevac halfway across the map before it can kill it because of a free speedbost with a ridiculously short cooldown. There's a PROBLEM, when Terran players using medevacs cannot be punished for the mistakes they make using them.
|
I had a terran hellbat drop me a lot. At one point he was circuling my third trying to catch my drones while 3 queens were shooting down his medivac. He didn't care, he just kept trying to drop on my drones in hopes of it would work, even if there was a 10 percent chance it would. Terrans don't even care if the drop dies. All they is one or two successful drop to really throw you off. It's got nothing to do with skill, when they fly past 3 overlords, over static defense, pass a queen and almost kill a drone, you just keep doing it until one lands. GG.
|
David Kim told InControl on State of the Game a month or so back that if they started seeing Hellbats in nearly every game, they'd nerf it. Well, I think Innovation and MVP have proved that pretty much the entirety of TvT revolves around Hellbat drops and Innovation vs sOs proved that even if Protoss successfully defends the drops, the threat of Hellbat drops alone means at high levels, Protoss can't expand as fas as terran.
I mean, warp gate technology is good for defending drops, but the time it takes to warp in and kill hellbats with medivacs healing them is more than enough time to kill an entire worker line. Meanwhile Protoss has to all in to harass a mineral line (a la proxy Oracle) which Innovation proved in the next game doesn't work anyway.
|
For the record I'm not a top tier player, my only issue with this notion is what is the big deal? It's just something that needs to be scouted, Zerg players should have overlords spread out to spot potential drops and give enough time. Baneling/ling burst a guy doing drops, most of his economy at that point is getting to that point, the amount of units he has really shouldn't be all that great. I mean getting proxxied in some sort of way can seem imbalanced at times when not scouted upon. Just as cheese builds are viable so is this. Proving a point by pointing to the 1 player(Innovation) who happens to be playing out of his mind right now isn't really saying that all builds are going to just go that way. Protoss make like 2 cannons and leave maybe 2/3 stalkers where a drop might happen. I've had oracles do just as much damage or even more in roughly the same amount of time.
|
i don't want to be rude but really if ppl don't know how def vs bathellion maybe they are not so good after all ?
|
They should do something like in ZvZ; increase turrets damage to medivacs only.
|
On June 12 2013 10:29 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
They should do something like in ZvZ; increase turrets damage to medivacs only.
No. That is just...bad. The zerg spore buff was something like a bandaid...
|
Regardless of logic (Which why I was arguing for no bio tag, cargo space, etc), the current hellbat alone is not that op. And medivac needs just a little bit of nerf/change that would make players to have higher skills to make the drop successful.
|
Watching WCS AM rightnow. Hellbat drops from Major are not doing much. Yeah he's not Code S korean, but nor are his opponents.
Seriously, it's only a problem in TvT so far. Any nerf that impacts the balance of non-mirror Terran matchups would be an idiotic move.
|
On June 12 2013 10:08 reafah wrote:
For the record I'm not a top tier player, my only issue with this notion is what is the big deal? It's just something that needs to be scouted, Zerg players should have overlords spread out to spot potential drops and give enough time. Baneling/ling burst a guy doing drops, most of his economy at that point is getting to that point, the amount of units he has really shouldn't be all that great. I mean getting proxxied in some sort of way can seem imbalanced at times when not scouted upon. Just as cheese builds are viable so is this. Proving a point by pointing to the 1 player(Innovation) who happens to be playing out of his mind right now isn't really saying that all builds are going to just go that way. Protoss make like 2 cannons and leave maybe 2/3 stalkers where a drop might happen. I've had oracles do just as much damage or even more in roughly the same amount of time.
So your solution as protoss is to spend important minerals early on on static defenses and then play extremely passively? Really, you think that that is the answer, and you don't see a problem?
|
On June 12 2013 10:49 SsDrKosS wrote:
Regardless of logic (Which why I was arguing for no bio tag, cargo space, etc), the current hellbat alone is not that op. And medivac needs just a little bit of nerf/change that would make players to have higher skills to make the drop successful.
You're in the wrong thread if you want to advocate for nerfing marine/marauder drops by changing the medivacs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
