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On June 12 2013 00:05 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 18:07 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:47 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:On June 11 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:
[quote]
So which boosts do you propose to compensate for such a nerf to terran? If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol..  We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable. The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs. And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else. Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows. Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety. What a disgraceful thing to say.
I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell...
It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
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They should just nerf Hellbat DROPS, for example they cant be healed or only 1 can be dropped whatever, but dont nerf the unit itself or it will become useless and mech even worse again...
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On June 12 2013 00:13 HDRhineland wrote:
I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already.
I think a lot of the problems with Hellbats is because of the sorry state of Mech in TvP. Even with Hellbats in their current state, Mech is far inferior to Bio play in TvP, and any buff to Mech will annihilate Zerg. In my opinion it boils down to poor unit design of Zealot and Immortals.
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United Kingdom12047 Posts
On June 12 2013 00:36 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 00:13 HDRhineland wrote:
I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already. I think a lot of the problems with Hellbats is because of the sorry state of Mech in TvP. Even with Hellbats in their current state, Mech is far inferior to Bio play in TvP, and any buff to Mech will annihilate Zerg. In my opinion it boils down to poor unit design of Zealot and Immortals.
Just give mech +damage to shields and it';ll be a huge improvement.
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I like it the way it is right now.
You can scout it, if you are not greedy and actually send an early scout. You can defend it, if you are not greedy, and again scout it.
I think where it is becoming a problem, even in pro level play, is where the initial scout is a combat unit, or not an early enough worker.
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On June 12 2013 00:36 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 00:13 HDRhineland wrote:
I wonder why the hellbat can be healed by the medivac? If that was not possible, they would die just a little faster... which might help a lot already. I think a lot of the problems with Hellbats is because of the sorry state of Mech in TvP. Even with Hellbats in their current state, Mech is far inferior to Bio play in TvP, and any buff to Mech will annihilate Zerg. In my opinion it boils down to poor unit design of Zealot and Immortals.
Mech doesnt only have problems in TvP, because Siege Tanks are outmaneuvered easily by anything Zerg can muster AND they dont really have anything good against air units themselves, so they need to build large numbers of Vikings too. The Hellbat is a "brute force" attempt to fix mech, but it doesnt really work that well, because the bad Siege Tank is still really bad and you need to have all of them in one army to even have a chance of surviving while opening up your bases for run-bys. You cant really siege anything on the Zerg half of the map because there is no way of building stuff on creep and it takes rather long to recede after you killed the tumors. To really go mech against Zerg you also need turret support ...
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Just remove the ability to make hellbats from the factory and force people to take servo-motor whatever. Then add infernal pre-igniter. As a bonus, let it add a bit of damage to tanks in the form of additional splash against protoss or something.
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what about increasing the cost of hellbats untill you've got the upgrade of transformation cervo
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Make it so the dropship can't boost with mechanical units in it?
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On June 12 2013 00:34 Aquila- wrote:
They should just nerf Hellbat DROPS, for example they cant be healed or only 1 can be dropped whatever, but dont nerf the unit itself or it will become useless and mech even worse again...
This, X 1000. Don't nerf the damage, but nerf the drops (because that's the only problem atm):
- 5 cargo space (= 1 hellbat / medivac = bye bye drops)
- transformation upgrade required to make hellbats (= much later hellbats, so much later drops)
A damage nerf would make them not strong enough in armies (imo).
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On June 12 2013 00:15 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 00:05 DustbinBieber wrote:On June 11 2013 18:07 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:47 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:01 VArsovskiSC wrote:[quote] If you read my post you'll see that I wrote: ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS WE CURRENTLY SEE IS BECAUSE BLIZZ DIDN'T EXPERIMENT MUCH WITH TERRAN DURING THE BETA Doesn't mean that THAT's the solution, but should be tried/tested in the PTR at least.. It's not solely all the Hellbat's fault.. It's quite a collage of units that make the combo too strong I think.. Might even be that Protoss gets a buff instead lol.. We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now". You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable. The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs. And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else. Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows. Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety. What a disgraceful thing to say. I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell... It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers.
Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation.
Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
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Awaiting a speedy patch to rectify this apparently strong build!
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On June 12 2013 01:27 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 00:15 scypio wrote:On June 12 2013 00:05 DustbinBieber wrote:On June 11 2013 18:07 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:47 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:43 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:33 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 17:26 scypio wrote:On June 11 2013 17:22 doffe wrote:On June 11 2013 17:05 scypio wrote:
[quote]
We have a balanced game right now. There are no balance problems. There are metagame problems that can be summed up "I don't like the way XvX matchup is looking like right now".
You can't go in and say: "let's do a huge nerf to race X to fix the meta" without breaking the balance. You have to consider the aftermath to keep the overall PvZvT balance intact. who are you to say the game is balanced? I think people way to often mix up balance with winratios in a certain matchup. if TvZ is 50/50 winratio and all the terrangames are high supply mmmm wins and all the zergwins are roach-bane busts is the game balanced? Surely in winratio but is it an actual proper balance? Is it the kind of balance we want? I am not saying this is the case though, it was just an example and to make it even more silly what if all P wins vs zerg would be 50min voidray, collosi archon and all zergwins where 7pools would we want that kind of balance even if the winratio was even? I am someone who likes the performance-based balance approach. Here we go:
WCS Premier Season 2 Europe
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 12P 10T 10Z
WCS Premier Season 2 Korea
optimal: 11 11 10
actual 10P 8T 14Z
Premier tournaments winners
optimal: 3 2 2
actual 3T 3Z 1P
Premier tournaments finalists
optimal: 4 5 5
actual 4P 5Z 5T
This looks close enough for me. I guess you dont like to watch games and are only interested in the results then? Personally I am more a "the way you get there is the most important bit" kind of guy and winning through mainly Hellbat drops is more boring than a long drawn out game with strategic positions held, threatened and overrun ... you know, games which require STRATEGY to win. Hellbats dont give that same level of excitement + Show Spoiler + and in a sense they are like premature ejaculation ... the game is over far too quickly . I watch the games and I'd like them to get better. Having this kind of stats however makes me think that "hey, let's nerf Terran" approach is not the way to go, as the results are way to close for that. And every "solution" to this problem is essentially a terran nerf, whereas the results show that it would be unreasonable. The results doesn't show anything of the sort. They don't in any way show that a small tweek to make early hellbat drops weaker would lower the terran winratios. Again, ZvP winratios where close to 50% in WoL and noone could ever claim that infestor BL didn't need nerfs. And whatever blizzard decides the tweaks should be small, messing around to much is never a good thing I disagree. Balance is based purely on numbers and game quality is based on everything else. Fast tech into harassment builds have a very small timing windows in TvZ and TvP, you need to do damage with your high tech units (read: hellbats) before the tech/eco or both kick in for the opponent. Making even a small adjustment will have major impact on size of these timing windows. Probably Terran could survive without such builds in TvP/TvZ but I enjoy the variety. What a disgraceful thing to say. I don't get it... so do you think that a game with 50% winrates for every race and equal distribution among top tournament participants/winners may be imbalanced? What the hell... It may be dull / boring / coinflippy and it may be unwatchable. But none of these things affect balance. Balance is pure numbers. Anyone who's done a little math knows that leaving things to chance always more or less ends up with a 50/50 situation. Try flipping a coin constantly during two straight hours, you'll end up with a surprisingly close number of heads and tails.
yeah, that's why we call coinflipping a balanced game (50:50).
But leaving everything to chance does not lead to balanced games usually. Try this game: roll a die, by 1 you win, by 2-6 you lose. We left it to chance. It's not balanced.
What's your point?
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Add an upgrade for healing at the fusion core? So you keep it to the late game.
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Btw, i love the way Blizz manage the situation, the choice to wait to be sure something isn't right (with this or anything else).
Let's not change anything till legacy of the void ! To be sure, you know ...
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Bisutopia19372 Posts
Here's a new idea.
Hellbats start off with single target damage but after an upgrade, (with or without armory debatable) then it can have splash damage again.
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''we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.''
Seems like a good enough fix!
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On June 11 2013 10:54 Gamegene wrote:
make them require transformation servos DK.
I also think the Hellbat is closely related to the medivac boost... The medivac boost,
just like the transformation servos, should be a mandatory research for
Terran players (like me). We should have to pay 50m and 50g for boosts in
armory, for example, and we should have to pay 150m 150g to make our
hellions hellbats. Currently, there is no reason to make blue flame
hellions anymore.
So you wanna boost in with 2 hellbats? Think again, and prepare. It also
gives the opportunity for the opponent to scout talking techs.
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at master level, TvP is still so fucking hard for terran. And what we have ?
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On June 11 2013 11:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 10:52 SoOJuuu wrote:
took them long enough to figuire it out.
sigh
better late then never.
I think it's fine. It's always good to let a metagame settle and see if the community can solve its own issues. Better than having a company patch the game at such a reactionary pace that it takes the innovation out of its players.
Does that mean we should bring back BL/Infestor and just let players work it out? :O
Please say it's so.
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EPT
