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On May 03 2013 16:38 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:29 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change It's called a beta test for a reason. To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through  I'd even say 99.9% =) Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament.
creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
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and I thought proxy stargate was already hard ;_;
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On May 03 2013 16:41 Topdoller wrote:
Terrible changes are David Kim and Co going to fuck it up again like they did with WoL, Its looking like they are heading in the same direction with baffling tweaks instead of addressing core game units
Obviously they "have to" do new stuff, because the old stuff was balanced, right? Thus they cant remove Mutalisk regeneration after they added it with HotS and it is part of the "core" of the unit. Tweaking it doesnt make sense either because it will be the same as removing it.
They want to see more Oracles in games and the only way for them to push it is buffing the unit in question. The sense or no-sense of such an action or any consequences dont bother them.
On May 03 2013 15:19 EleanorRIgby wrote:
sad attempt to get people to use burrow more, 50/50 is wayyy too low for such a utility.
Exactly !!!!
On May 03 2013 16:01 MagnuMizer wrote:
Acceleration buff for the Oracle is a good move!! Thanks blizz, cant wait to test this out! =)
And WHY is it a good move?`Because you are too slow to use the old Oracle and more speed will give you more control? That is the opposite of how it works for speed usually.
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On May 03 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:38 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2013 16:29 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change It's called a beta test for a reason. To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through I'd even say 99.9% =) Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament. creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver)
Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
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On May 03 2013 16:44 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:37 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:32 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:27 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote:
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout. Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically. It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive. The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible. The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag.
I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown.
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On May 03 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:38 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2013 16:29 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change It's called a beta test for a reason. To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through I'd even say 99.9% =) Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament. creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver) Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback.
maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
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On May 03 2013 16:54 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:44 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:37 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:32 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:27 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote:
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout. Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically. It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive. The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible. The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag. I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown.
Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff.
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Cannon should receive same buff what spore clawlers, toss has same sitution with mass muta, no counter unless you make ton of phoenixes then you're in "bad spot " cause zerg will remax on ultras : )
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On May 03 2013 17:01 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:54 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:44 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:37 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:32 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:27 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote:
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout. Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically. It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive. The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible. The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag. I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown. Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff.
yeah, though he is right technically. Acceleration =/= Decceleration in the editor. You can change the one without changing the other. But I think blizzard just keeps those values the same and doesn't even mention the decceleration changes when they change acceleration.
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I think people are overreacting about the oracle changes. .125 movespeed is pretty small and 1 acceleration isn't much either. i don't see this breaking the game or any matchups
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On May 03 2013 16:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On May 03 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:38 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2013 16:29 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change It's called a beta test for a reason. To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through I'd even say 99.9% =) Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament. creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver) Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback. maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work.
Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
@Lee, the problem isn't it breaking matchups, it is that it won't fix the problem.
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On May 03 2013 17:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 17:01 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:54 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:44 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:37 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:32 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:27 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote:
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout. Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically. It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive. The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible. The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag. I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown. Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff. yeah, though he is right technically. Acceleration =/= Decceleration in the editor. You can change the one without changing the other. But I think blizzard just keeps those values the same and doesn't even mention the decceleration changes when they change acceleration.
Does it affect Stop Command/Hold Position? ie. Do those happen instantly and is the same for all units
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On May 03 2013 17:07 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:57 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On May 03 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:38 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2013 16:29 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change It's called a beta test for a reason. To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through I'd even say 99.9% =) Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament. creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver) Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback. maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work. Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
Maybe they ignored most of it for a similar reason they should be ignoring most of this thread. The standard complaints are about how ebays now need to be 30 seconds earlier for proxy oracles. The speed buff (just like blizzard said and very few people on these forums are listening to) does not help proxy stargates. If I'm all-in, I could care less if I saved my two oracles if I didn't kill the terran. I mean, what are two oracles going to do for me when I'm down a base and 20 workers? What the speed buff (and you HAVE to buff acceleration if you buff speed or the unit is unresponsive) actually does, is it allows for oracles to be kept alive a little better. That only helps if I want to harass over a long period of time, which currently no one is using oracles for. And one reason for not using them: they are hard to keep alive.
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On May 03 2013 17:11 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 17:04 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 17:01 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:54 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:44 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:37 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 16:32 convention wrote:On May 03 2013 16:27 Thrillz wrote:On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote:
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout. Those are completely different. Mutas come way later in the game while Oracles don't. Since Oracles are early game units, Protoss or Terran would have to invest in early ebay/forge and build time before they can get static defense. Zergs get spores automatically. It's not like the oracles got a build time buff, or a cost reduction, or a damage increase. They got a small speed buff. It hardly even changes the matchup except pros might be 10-15% more likely to grab a few oracles in the midgame/lategame because they will be slightly easier to keep alive. The speed buff isn't particular scary. The speed buff combined with the +1 acceleration buff at the same time is something I'd be very cautious to implement. Also I hope to god they don't do anything until this GSL is over, because that would be just annoying and terrible. The +1 acceleration buff means that they will stop at the same place they would have previously, afterall the oracle is going faster. If you don't buff the acceleration with the speed, you will see a turret and not be able to stop in time. The unit would feel clunky, it would be as if playing with lag. I'm not sure, and someone technical might need to be summoned, but does acceleration actually affect stop command? If it doesn't then it's more that Oracles wouldn't be able to escape from static defenses faster after entering the range. Again, speed and acceleration are completely different, you don't need to nerf/ buff both at the same time. Mutas got a speed buff but not acceleration I believe. If they going for the micro route, they should do acceleration, though the correct number is unknown. Ever use the original mamship? The one with almost 0 acceleration and super low movement speed? It took 3 seconds for it to cast vortex because it had to stop first. They then buffed the acceleration and the cast time was significantly reduced. There was a post on how good players would have the mamaship on a patrol command so that it didn't need to start from zero, but the huge issue was it was impossible to cast a vortex before the huge acceleration buff. yeah, though he is right technically. Acceleration =/= Decceleration in the editor. You can change the one without changing the other. But I think blizzard just keeps those values the same and doesn't even mention the decceleration changes when they change acceleration. Does it affect Stop Command/Hold Position? ie. Do those happen instantly and is the same for all units
If you hit stop or hold position, the unit decelerates to zero. It doesn't set the speed to zero, the unit has to slow down first. Which is why mutas can pseudo-move and shoot.
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Acceleration for the Oracle is really great news, speed i care less about, but that is a very slight speed increase... i thought the acceleration was pretty shitty before, i'm glad they recognized that and changed it...
i cant believe all you idiots talking shit saying david kim ruined the game when you havent even given it a chance... i think it sounds like some very logical changes and i like all of them (couldnt care less about spore cos i'm P)
GOOD CHANGES BLIZZ !!! +1
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On May 03 2013 17:07 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 16:57 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On May 03 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:38 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2013 16:29 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change It's called a beta test for a reason. To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through I'd even say 99.9% =) Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament. creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver) Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback. maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work. Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely.
Maybe the feedback they want to see is : "that is utterly broken, this rush is unstoppable" kind of thing, that they didn't thought about, and not really vage comments on how it will change the metagame.
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50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
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On May 03 2013 17:20 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
50/50 for burrow... I don't like that it is now no longer a choice to get it. It's such a useful upgrade, so stupid that it's nearly free now. And the oracle speed increase means that oracles will own marines every day of the week. I guess fast engineering bay will be the norm in TvP now :-x. The worst thing is they always go through with these beta changes 100%.
No, oracles high dps to light units means the oracles own marines. The speed buff just means if the oracles sees 30 marines with stim moving across the map, you don't instantly lose your 150/150 investment.
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On May 03 2013 17:11 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 17:07 Sissors wrote:On May 03 2013 16:57 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:54 Sissors wrote:On May 03 2013 16:45 Big J wrote:On May 03 2013 16:38 SolidMoose wrote:On May 03 2013 16:29 E.L.V.I.S wrote:On May 03 2013 08:15 blade55555 wrote:On May 03 2013 08:14 nGBeast wrote:On May 03 2013 08:12 GTPGlitch wrote:
Fuck they went through with the oracle change It's called a beta test for a reason. To be honest 99% of the time they do these beta test changes they go through I'd even say 99.9% =) Then the 0.1% is the raven speed because Mvp won a tournament. creep nerf didn't go through, queen +25starting energy didn't go through, psionic immunity to fungal didn't go through (those warp prisms and DTs still make me shiver) Although since HotS beta there hasn't been a single CTA where the changes didn't get patched in exactly as in the CTA, regardless of feedback. maybe because it was already a beta? I mean, they are not going to make a betatest to look whether they implement changes to a beta... They just nerf the stuff back if it doesn't work. Which would be fine for me, if they wouldn't do the CTA stuff in the first place. They propose changes, ask for feedback, and proceed to ignore it. Fine for me if they think their opinion is more accurate, but then just skip the feedback step completely. Maybe they ignored most of it for a similar reason they should be ignoring most of this thread. The standard complaints are about how ebays now need to be 30 seconds earlier for proxy oracles. The speed buff (just like blizzard said and very few people on these forums are listening to) does not help proxy stargates. If I'm all-in, I could care less if I saved my two oracles if I didn't kill the terran. I mean, what are two oracles going to do for me when I'm down a base and 20 workers? What the speed buff (and you HAVE to buff acceleration if you buff speed or the unit is unresponsive) actually does, is it allows for oracles to be kept alive a little better. That only helps if I want to harass over a long period of time, which currently no one is using oracles for. And one reason for not using them: they are hard to keep alive.
That won't be the case.
All-ins will become stronger, simply because it is easier to kill SCVs that run, it is easier to kill marines that try to scramble to defend, etc. (That it hits a few seconds faster isn't that significant). But if they are anticipated they still will be countered.
Then mid game really fun you can keep them alive longer. Only problem that they won't do anything. You can also keep them alive right now by keeping them in the back of your base. You can then even use them to counter drops/runbys. Because higher speed won't increase their use on the offensive. If my opponent has oracles every single mineral line i have will be 100% oracle proof, they're are just too dangerous to ignore. So even if you give them 10 speed, they still won't do damage in a mineral line since their has to be enough defense to kill them anyway.
@kubiks, even the most horrible change proposed by them since the beta has been patched in. Again fine for me if they don't care about feedback, but then don't ask for it.
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EPT
