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On May 03 2013 13:58 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 13:31 FoShao wrote:
crybabies always point at protoss -_- seriously there is NO oracle play in tournaments, just cause you lost to oracles on ladder doesn't make it broken... Burrow change is now back at Tier 1 50/50. People forget but this Burrow change Tier1 50/50 was already in WOL beta and it was broken. Burrow change won't make it in. It will be too good. Those 5:50:6.00 min roach/ling burrow timing attack will be brutal. Blizzard...........................* facepalm*
It WAS broken.
Protoss gained a flying unit that can attack ground and transform a nexus into a powerfull cannon, and terran gained reaper and mines, that allow you to scout and defend this kind of thing more easily. And maps have gotten way bigger.
Some terran build are gonna disapear because they can't hold that, but maybe not much more.
Things changed, and they want to see if it is doable, so they make a testing map. If indeed it's way to powerfull, they'll change. But Hots is not the same unit balance as WoL beta, so why it should have the same results ?
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On May 03 2013 13:58 FakeDeath wrote:
Burrow change is now back at Tier 1 50/50.
People forget but this Burrow change Tier1 50/50 was already in WOL beta and it was broken.
Burrow change won't make it in.
It will be too good.
Those 5:50:6.00 min roach/ling burrow timing attack will be brutal.
Blizzard...........................* facepalm*
It wasn't actually burrow that was broken back then. It was roaches being 1 supply, having 2 base armor and regenerating 10 hp per second while burrowed.
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On May 03 2013 14:51 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 13:58 FakeDeath wrote:
Burrow change is now back at Tier 1 50/50.
People forget but this Burrow change Tier1 50/50 was already in WOL beta and it was broken.
Burrow change won't make it in.
It will be too good.
Those 5:50:6.00 min roach/ling burrow timing attack will be brutal.
Blizzard...........................* facepalm* It wasn't actually burrow that was broken back then. It was roaches being 1 supply, having 2 base armor and regenerating 10 hp per second while burrowed.
Good good time :D
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So assuming it goes pretty much the same as the HotS beta: Blizzard has some random ideas, some are liked, some aren't. Blizzard proceeds to do a CTA thingie with exactly the same ideas. Again some are liked, some are considered pretty bad. Blizzard proceeds to ignore all feedback and does it anyway. Now my problem isn't really that Blizzard ignores the community, but isn't it just easier to ignore all those in-between steps where they act just like they are interested in the opinion of the community?
Spore crawler change is imo still an ugly 'solution'. Well I guess maybe zergs can make their base completely muta proof so they can go hydra and move out, but I wouldn't bet too much on it. I don't see oracle changes do too much besides making them stronger in all-in situations. I thought the issue was that they had little roles in the mid/late game, and higher speed won't do much about that. Oracles are just so deadly your base always needs to be 100% oracle proof when they are out.
Main changes I expect with oracle changes is that in PvP oracle vs phoenix openings survive a tad longer. In PvT we might see phoenix + oracle for detection a bit more often, and the most significant change: hallucinated phoenixes will be more often replaced by hallucinated oracles.
Burrow change is more interesting, and especially harder to guess what will happen. I could see burrowed banelings becoming very popular in ZvT (ZvZ possibly too), making early agression very risky. Similar to planetary nexus of toss, but I don't know how happy that makes me, it also forces terrans to go more on hellbat drops if the ground route is suicidal until more detection is available.
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Russian Federation604 Posts
Roach burrow with 50/50 cost is AWESOME! Thnx!
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To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
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Strange that they dont nerf widow mines...
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Would have been nice for a supported change to toss to spice things up, but at least we get the spore crawler change to discourage massive muta clouds just mashing into each other >< still wish toss could be less death-bally
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On May 03 2013 15:13 exog wrote:
Strange that they dont nerf widow mines...
Strange they don't nerf a unit that no pros complain about or consider a problem?
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sad attempt to get people to use burrow more, 50/50 is wayyy too low for such a utility.
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On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote:
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout.
That's not my problem with the solution, or well it actually is. This change does pretty much nothing to make it harder to stop, it only makes it more damaging if it wasn't stopped. Considering how damaging it already is when not anticipated I don't think that needs to be worse, I think they should have more of a role if they are anticipated. (Although to be honest the banshee has a slightly similar problem, where they are fairly useless besides early game when they go unscouted).
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On May 03 2013 08:42 Madera wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote:
Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable? Because speed isn't the problem with the oracle. When used in PvT it's pretty much an all or nothing unit. Generally it either catches you off-guard and does game ending damage or you scout it and prepare and it does nothing. The problem with the oracle is that it doesn't have a solid mid-game transition to justify spending money on a stargate unless you're continuing down that tech path or using it with your all-in. exactly this. if you could use them later (ie a different spell than envision, the unit would be much better. now they seem like either you do a ton of damage or none.
also, I don't think the spore buff is going to do what they think it will do. I think it's going to lead to more +1/+1 ling play which is probably more volatile than muta play.
I suspect, on the burrow change, that blizzard has this crazy idea that zergs will use burrow like protoss uses blink and that it will be exciting. I don't think it's going to happen. I think we're going to see a lot more dumb burrow blocks and maybe some more burrowed banelings in zvz
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Give my Photon canons + 50 vs. bio pls. Sick of pathetic muta play
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spore buff is still stupid, i was fine with the first damage buff...but now another?
the thing is, MUTA vs MUTA WILL HAPPEN...it just will, making spore's annihilate Muta's is just silly.
burrow cost buff is great, its way underused except for infestors and roach regens
oracle change is INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUSLY NAIVE. why would you give a unit that absolutely demolishes workers EVEN MORE SPEED?
these changes make me sad 
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On May 03 2013 15:25 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 15:10 OGxZyL wrote:
To all those who oppose the speed for oracles, please think about how easy they can be thwarted.
Just like Mutas in tvp, a lot of damaged can be dealt if they are not scouted. There is nothing different about oracles. Throw down a scan and scout it.
As a zerg player, throwing down static defense is a must to counter all kinds of drops and oracles. What about that craziness? Oh yea, I just scout. That's not my problem with the solution, or well it actually is. This change does pretty much nothing to make it harder to stop, it only makes it more damaging if it wasn't stopped. Considering how damaging it already is when not anticipated I don't think that needs to be worse, I think they should have more of a role if they are anticipated. (Although to be honest the banshee has a slightly similar problem, where they are fairly useless besides early game when they go unscouted).
Exactly ...
Right now people are only building ONE Oracle, but what happens when you wait for 2-3 or until the one has more energy and you send some hallucinated ones as well?
There is a great quote from Babylon 5 and it goes roughly like this: "When you are trying to make a point, you should make it in a way which no one misses" ... i.e. send your ENTIRE fleet of ships on a mission to overwhelm the enemy. Sending just one Oracle seems to be rather weak to "make a point" and getting more than one would seem like a good idea. It doesnt really cost that much and you can play defensive easily by relying more on cannons (which are useful against harrassment anyways) to free up your gas for the Oracles.
Just get 1 Gateway (or whatever minimum amount for a wall-in) and then straight to Stargate and several Oracles while using the minerals from the Gateways you didnt build for additional cannons (you really need them anyways as drop-defense/deter mechanism). With several Oracles you might even be able to fight a bunch of Marines effectively (maybe with some hallucinated Oracles as support since Terrans are unlikely to have the energy for (many) scans early in the game OR you can attack several places at the same time to pull the enemy forces apart.
The bottom line is that the Oracle doesnt really need a buff to its speed.
On May 03 2013 15:48 leova wrote:spore buff is still stupid, i was fine with the first damage buff...but now another? the thing is, MUTA vs MUTA WILL HAPPEN...it just will, making spore's annihilate Muta's is just silly. burrow cost buff is great, its way underused except for infestors and roach regens oracle change is INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUSLY NAIVE. why would you give a unit that absolutely demolishes workers EVEN MORE SPEED? these changes make me sad
Muta vs Muta happens out on the map and the Spore Crawler will defend the bases. The only point is to allow a "loser" to catch his breath and gather more Mutas while hiding in his base, but since he is already losing it wont "improve" the game. A decently large clump of Mutalisks will still kill Spore Crawlers with one or two hits, but a small one will be decimated ... so the end result will be people waiting for CRITICAL NUMBERs of Mutalisks before attacking a base ... which is boring.
People should USE burrow and then they "deserve" a cost reduction maybe, but not like this. SC2 is far too fast to use burrow for micro and if people cant be bothered to spend 100/100 on one research then they dont deserve to get a discount.
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Acceleration buff for the Oracle is a good move!! Thanks blizz, cant wait to test this out! =)
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I still think Blizz is throwing this out as a red herring just to distract people while they let the meta develop for HotS. All in all, the patch won't change much.
The reason why people, and especially T players, are worried about buffing the oracle isn't because it's too strong when microed. It's more that it's disliked already because it's seen as a gimmick unit. Everyone has had games where you guess that particular 2 gas opener wrong and an oracle flies into your mineral line and begins a slow death animation. This isn't even a problem with the oracle, it's more an issue about Protoss being a guess-my-build race, at the moment.
As we saw with Polt at Dreamhack, you can scout the proxy oracle but do it too late to save the game. With the speed boost you can arrive at the same time as now also if you just hide the stargate somewhere on the map. This makes it more difficult to scout this particular all-in, which is what people already have issues with.
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people hating on the burrow buff, dont you think if you put something like this in a beta (its a beta guys come on) they will use it more? if they decide to put it back, they will still have the exposure of the base ability and can judge the value. For me this happened a few times in the beta map tests and since using the ideas they didnt put through i havent gone back
oracle change you know could need the buff as the queen and a spore in zvz is enough. For some reason i dont worry at all if i see an oracle
spore damage. it will stop only small muta balls but still most people only really attack when their ball instas a spore anyway so that 1 shot its going to get off . . . hmmm, it just stops you from attacking sooner so the death ball incoming with just flying around the middle of the map. I suppose it would give time to add tech into other units, hmm dont really know with this but its a buff so im happy
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Spore buff is great fucking hate muta vs muta play,the burrow cost buff is great to...but the oracle change man :/ are u kidding me? :/
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EPT
