EPTCall to Action: May 2 Balance Testing - Page 9
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GoodSirTets
Canada200 Posts
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woopr
United States110 Posts
On May 03 2013 11:56 convention wrote: The problem with mech in TvP is not losing max v max battles (mech actually are very strong in those battles), it's getting there that is almost impossible. getting there is doable on certain maps but certainly not on all maps. akilon wastes, for example, is really defensive and allows for a relatively easy 3rd and 4th. it's just too weak for what it's supposed to be, especially if they switch between air and ground units. lowering tank supply only really affects the maxed composition when going mech vs P which doesn't trade well enough once attained for its immobility, especially with the new void rays forcing some more thors and/or vikings. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
Just be happy your medivacs and Hellbats never die right now | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:11 GoodSirTets wrote: It's not that the oracle change in the problem, it's just a poorly designed gimmicky unit in the first place.... What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On May 03 2013 08:23 partydude89 wrote: Because it doesn't. it's mostly luck based. it seems like whoever starts mutas/gets the first volley off first wins. there is very little micro you can actually do. I agree. Currently ZvZ Muta Wars is really bad in SC2 compared to BW. For ZvZ Muta Wars to be as good as BW, they need to: 1. Return mechanics of how Mutalisk (and potentially other units too) were controlled in BW. This page and this Mutalisk vs Scourge page details on how Mutalisk were controlled in BW. It was very practical and easy to do. An important thing about most of BW's mechanics is that they were all "very practical to do (and easy to learn) but they had almost unlimited potential for good players" (I'd say "easy to learn but hard to master" but that phrased is used for everything by like nearly every game developer for everything, and it's like a cliche now >.>). 2. Add scourge back (maybe only against ZvZ if they're too strong in other matchups, like someone said this on Inside the Game thread but something like 50 damage against non-bio units while +60 against bio units, total of 110 against bio). _______________ Anyway as for the Oracle change. Well, we'll have to see. I like the concept but I guess we'll have to see in game. Kind of disappointed in Protoss in HotS (minus the Mothership Core which is neat, Tempest are also okay too). They need to bring back the Reaver. The reaver (IMO) is one of the best designed RTS unit of all time. It's simple but yet it was fun to mirco with and micro against. The Scarabs were slow enough that the opponent could try to split (which is I know is typical for an AoE unit) or try to run behind structures or something to block the Scarab's path (the more the Scarab is blocked, the more likely it will be a "dud" and will miss and do no damage) (and the scarab following ground pathing and being blockable is one of the things that makes it unique as an AoE ranged unit). As a user of Reaver, trying to aim for a target to deal the most damage (kind of like Widow Mines except they were 100x more practical to do and you were likely doing it while doing shuttle micro) was one fun aspect of using Reavers too. Reavers are one of those rare units that it involved and invoked (fun) micro on both sides. (Most of the time, it's either one player a-moves and the other player tries to micro against it. It's rarely like the Reaver where the unit invoked micro on both sides.) | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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_Search_
Canada180 Posts
Small groups of mutas are already deterred by ONE spore crawler, large groups of mutas ignore them utterly. This might change the definition of a small group vs. a large group, but the strength in muta comps in ZvZ is the map control, and that's something that spore crawlers don't affect. | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:17 convention wrote: What makes the oracle a gimmick? Is the raven also a gimmick? I don't see the difference of those two units. You don't rely in raven to do damage and its utility gets better as the game progresses. Oracle relies on early harass and pretty useless as a support unit That's why u dun have people getting raven early or Oracle in mid late game | ||
digmouse
China6326 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:31 tomatriedes wrote: Dunno why there's so much crying about oracles when one viking or one turret in mineral line still shuts them down just as hard. The whole unit needs a redesign so it can be more useful outside of early game. Oracle is quite effective past early game, revelation is a great tool for map vision and scouting. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
Spores were already sick good ZvZ. I don't see how this change is going to allow for more ground based play as opposed to previously just making an additional spore. Meh, I don't think any amount of spore buffs is going to promote ground play over muta play in hots. You'd have to bugg them into oblivion it would be stupid. Burrow was already relatively cheap before, I don't think a 50/50 decrease is going to promote anything other than cheesy roach burrow allins, not the kind of burrow play they're looking for. We’re already seeing proxy Stargate openers, and we’ll see these tactics more frequently with this change. In general, we’re not seeing proxy Oracles ending games, nor giving huge advantages to Protoss players. We feel that proxy strategies or hidden tech strategies are fun to watch, and we don’t think this change will have a negative impact on the game—even if players have to scout for proxy Stargates a bit more carefully. Uhhh yeah.... I'm pretty sure I've seen a fair amount of games end immediately or at least give P a huge advantage already. In terms of which is best and worst, spore change is best (of the 3), oracle change is the worst, and burrow change is just kind of stupid but not a big balance issue. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:33 ETisME wrote: You don't rely in raven to do damage and its utility gets better as the game progresses. Oracle relies on early harass and pretty useless as a support unit That's why u dun have people getting raven early or Oracle in mid late game I can't stress enough how powerful revelation is in the lategame. It's basically a scan that follows the enemy units for an entire minute. The oracle is an incredibly powerful lategame support unit. TvP, terran has ~10 scans per minute to track all of the high templars and enemy movements, and protoss needs to use revelation to follow the ghosts and medivacs. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:40 convention wrote: I can't stress enough how powerful revelation is in the lategame. It's basically a scan that follows the enemy units for an entire minute. The oracle is an incredibly powerful lategame support unit. TvP, terran has ~10 scans per minute to track all of the high templars and enemy movements, and protoss needs to use revelation to follow the ghosts and medivacs. I wish more people would realize this. Oracle speed buff is much more for later game utility, and will only minorly affect early game usage. Oracles are currently to slow to really be used as a later game scouting tool like I think they are intended to be. | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:52 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I wish more people would realize this. Oracle speed buff is much more for later game utility, and will only minorly affect early game usage. Oracles are currently to slow to really be used as a later game scouting tool like I think they are intended to be. Oracles were intended as a harassment gimmick, and the "scouting" tools were thrown in to meet the 3 spell quota of all SC2 caster units. The phoenix can kill workers, the voidray can kill buildings, and the observer can scout, so why does the Oracle even need to exist? also the speed buff is useless for lategame purposes because: 1.) Terrans won't go late-game, because they will pull all their SCV's some time before the 15 minute mark if you haven't already allined or died to drops 2.) If your opponent is hopelessly optimistic and you get Tempests instead of killing him with a 3/3 timing, your oracles are going to die horribly after casting Revelation, regardless of the buff, since Vikings have absurd range and should have attack upgrades. but yeah, revelation + tempest is pretty crazy....it's the ultimate spoonbreaker | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:40 convention wrote: I can't stress enough how powerful revelation is in the lategame. It's basically a scan that follows the enemy units for an entire minute. The oracle is an incredibly powerful lategame support unit. TvP, terran has ~10 scans per minute to track all of the high templars and enemy movements, and protoss needs to use revelation to follow the ghosts and medivacs. except protoss are acheiving pretty much the same with obs around their base and controlling the terran army movement by doing zealot run by. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
They should combine revelation and envision and give it a 3rd spell that gives it more synergy with phoenix and voidrays. Perhaps something that temporarily shuts down static D like disruption web. Make it cost 50-75 energy. That way, a person could open oracle and transition into phoenix to harass, allowing them to do damage to mineral lines with spores/turrets in them more effectively. It's so painful seeing protoss harass getting shut down by just one spore and I dont think speed will help much. Acceleration will help but honestly, I think this unit as a lot of potential even though it currently is lacking. Spore: The spore change seems kinda bizarre. I wonder what would happen if they gave hydra a separate air attack that was exactly the same as it is now, except +x vs bio. Changes nothing except its ability vs zerg. Maybe overlords or something would be too vulnerable but its worth a shot at least. Or a free speed upgrade. I think the hydra should be the solution not more static D. | ||
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Holdenintherye
Canada1441 Posts
PvT: nothing changes, widow mines still one shot oracles PvP: nothing changes, phoenixes are still faster than orcles PvZ: oracles kill more workers than usual until mutas come out | ||
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Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
On May 03 2013 12:31 tomatriedes wrote: Dunno why there's so much crying about oracles when one viking or one turret in mineral line still shuts them down just as hard. The whole unit needs a redesign so it can be more useful outside of early game. That's pretty much why it's a dumb change for both sides of the matchup It doesn't matter how fast the oracle goes if it's still shut down by static defense and becomes completely useless outside of the ~7 time window where it can attack while cannons/turrets/spore is not up. This isn't exciting or strategic for either side. It'll take less than a day on ladder for any player with a brain to add static defense or mines to their build order to ward off proxy oracles. There is no change to counter play to the unit. It's still "maek defense". Oracles are a real expensive unit, it'd be a shame if something happened to them. Like getting blown up with one mine after it hits maybe one SCV in the mineral line. And on the other hand forcing players to shoehorn whatever requirements are needed for static defense (4minute ebay) isn't creative or strategic either. there are greedy players being punished, and then there's "there's an oracle in my main and I didn't reactor my rax/built an early engineering bay/went 2 rax before fact so I lose (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧" | ||
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FoShao
United States256 Posts
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