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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:33 kubiks wrote: Is it true ? Maybe, but I didn't saw any burrow all-in in pro game for a long time (maybe I don't watch enough pro games :p) Every all-in is pretty strong against a gateway expand  | ||
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Rachnar
France1526 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:42 tomatriedes wrote: What the hell are you talking about? http://i.imgur.com/2VGA4RP.png protoss is ahead of terrans in both its matchup, overall terran winrate is higher though because of tvz, not tvp | ||
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RaelSan
Belgium223 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:35 Rachnar wrote: a scan unless you are lucky will not reveal what you want to see, best case scenario it only reveals partially what your opponents has and yeah the reaper is faster but will be caught after some time, the guy wont stop at just 1 stalker and he also has mothership core i agree the reaper is terrans only way to scout early, but it can get shut down so easily by a decent protoss player that knows how to positions his units, that meh, useless i feel like tvp on hots only dependss on pure luck, either you counter blindly what the guy does and you're fine or you don't and you're dead protoss opens double gaz behind he can anything like hide blink highground with mothership, hide dt, proxy robo prism 4g, proxy robo immortal bust, proxy stargate, proxy robo warprism and dt, etc... too much builds you have to be able to react to, what does toss have to react to early vs terran that would kill them if they dont scout it? except mine and hellbats drops, nothing, and even then a photon in each mineral line and they're fine Best case scenario, the scan sees everything, and it happens often ! Some pro players still get scouted by the reaper, so I don't think it never works on ladder. I agree you don't always want to make reapers or waste a scan early, but you can also pressure a bit or hide an scv and check if he has a natural at some point. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
What annoys me is their fascination with early game aggression. To have some is good, to have tons of options for all 3 races just makes the game a gamble cluster fuck. I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack. I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it. I don't see how. The only thing for protoss that would deter aggression is if they did a 6 gate all in and the zerg got burrow. For terran this will never be an issue because of scan and if the terran realizes zerg has burrow they save scans as normal. This won't hurt any early aggression. Any 4 gate play for toss, burrow won't even be starting to research unless zerg is doing some 1 base thing. Same with any sort of terran pressure reaper/fast hellion/2 rax. None of these will ever be affected by burrow it. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
And the main problem, he doesn't need to actually have burrow, just the threat that he may have it is already a problem. Right now there is also a chance he has it, but since it is so unpopular to get early it is not something you have to worry too much about it. | ||
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IMplying
Germany58 Posts
On May 03 2013 08:14 lim1017 wrote: 50/50 burrow is gonna have burrow rushes into blocking naturtals.. No, it isn't. First of all, it it's hardly possible time-wise and more importantly, which Zerg likes to play 1 base vs. 1 base while the own economy is severely crippled? | ||
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gamerdude12345
Korea (South)378 Posts
No to oracle. It's fine as it is. Yes to spore crawler buff. I want to see more units when I watch ZvZ. Zerg got a hydra buff, Swarmhost added, viper added and even an ultra buff but all we see is ling/muta vs ling/muta. This isn't 1998, let's advance the match-up Yes to burrow change. It's a little change and I'm interested to see what can come out of it. | ||
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Rachnar
France1526 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:50 blade55555 wrote: I don't see how. The only thing for protoss that would deter aggression is if they did a 6 gate all in and the zerg got burrow. For terran this will never be an issue because of scan and if the terran realizes zerg has burrow they save scans as normal. This won't hurt any early aggression. Any 4 gate play for toss, burrow won't even be starting to research unless zerg is doing some 1 base thing. Same with any sort of terran pressure reaper/fast hellion/2 rax. None of these will ever be affected by burrow it. totally not true, if you do want to all in and they guy gets burrow tvz, you only have 1 orbital, which you do need for MULES to be abel to somehow comeback if you do soem damage but can't finish the guy, and even if you do save scans, you'll have 1? 2 max? if the guy attaks you on the middle of the map to slow you down and utilizes burrow, you scan and have nothing left the same way it worked when people went blink against a 1-1-1 with raven, you forced the engagement middle, you wasted pdd and protoss b, excat same scenario | ||
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Ace1123
Philippines1187 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:43 Rachnar wrote: protoss is ahead of terrans in both its matchup, overall terran winrate is higher though because of tvz, not tvp 50.7 to 49.3 is about as balanced as you can get. Claiming that protoss is ahead in any meaningful sense is total obfuscation. | ||
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lawlohwhat
United States32 Posts
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
Early burrow is much more a defensive tool than everything else. Waisting a scan so early in the game to pick up few drones or units with reapers/ hellions will never worth the 280 minerals of the mule. This will be a runby/drop killer at early stage of the game and will cripple 1 base terran aggresion a lot. Allins will be still fine but what is fun about Hots is the new ability to be aggressive without being allin in the early game. I wish zerg wouldn't have burrow for such a low cost but an improved nydus network or something designed purely for aggression and not for defense also as zerg have amazing defense tools already. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
"We want people to get burrow...cuz...BURROW...so we buffed it!" I just don't get it. | ||
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kubiks
France1328 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:55 Rachnar wrote: totally not true, if you do want to all in and they guy gets burrow tvz, you only have 1 orbital, which you do need for MULES to be abel to somehow comeback if you do soem damage but can't finish the guy, and even if you do save scans, you'll have 1? 2 max? if the guy attaks you on the middle of the map to slow you down and utilizes burrow, you scan and have nothing left the same way it worked when people went blink against a 1-1-1 with raven, you forced the engagement middle, you wasted pdd and protoss b, excat same scenario Not sure how the zerg is supposed to make that work. if he's in the middle of the map with an army, it's gonna be smaller than the terran one and probably everything will die while burrowing/unburroing. It's not like he's not wasting troops while doing this. And terran has the right to take an other path than the straight line (that works agaisnt banelings landmines too. I would even say that if a zerg manage to make this works I would be impressed by his skill more than by the OPness of burrow. And btw I don't see many current one base all-in from terran (8/8/8 and proxy 2 rax) agaisnt zerg that comes after the burrow... | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7997 Posts
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
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TechSc2
Netherlands554 Posts
On May 03 2013 09:37 Blargh wrote: I think Blizzard and their balance crew might actually be retarded for thinking medivacs needed a speed buff. They are a horribly designed unit which does very little for the game. If they want skill to have an impact on medivacs, then they should make it a micro-heavy air unit like Banshees. Banshees = good, speedmedivacs = bad. They kill workers/light units instantly, which is just stupid. They are already fast enough that they can get in there, kill 2-3 workers and run out even with a turret attacking, and they will only lose shield. I don't even mind medivacs that much in all-ins, it's just the harass that's bad. See what i did there? Screw everyone who is complaining about the oracle. Only matchup it was used alot in the early stages was PvT and it requires you to completely delay your normal tech paths and be vulnerable to high marine count pushes that hit around the 7 minute mark. The oracle as it is now is a horribly bad unit for a protoss. a properly prepared terran can fend off an oracle with ease and then the protoss is very behind tech wise. you do know that 5 marines kill an oracle right? that's 250 minerals against a 150/150 unit, that requires another 150/150 to be even produced out of a dead tech path. Easiest way for a terran to deal with oracles is go to for a reactor barracks expand. Mine 50 gas for the reactor only and you will be safe against any oracle harass and only delays your CC by 30 seconds. Since all protoss open up two gasses already nowadays you will not put yourself in a bad position at all by going for a gas opener yourself | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 03 2013 17:46 Sissors wrote: If a scan sees everything when the opponent does oracle play he either had horrible building placement or the terran has a maphack. I am way more concerned about the opposite: Their lack of fascination with early agression. While all-ins might be a bit boosted here (oracle), burrow change does way more to deter early agression than allow it. We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on. There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc | ||
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FrozenProbe
Italy276 Posts
1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting | ||
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