|
I don't understand, why Blizzard keeps making unnecessary changes, which might completely break the balance of the game.
In WoL the Queen range buff/overlord speed buff came out of nowhere, and after 1 week of ''testing'' it was just added to the game. I approve of the idea, to make spore crawlers better, to maybe change ZvZ, but buffing completely fine, if not even very strong units like the oracle for no apparent reason, is a very bad thing imo.
Burrow is already a very good tool for zergs, burrow 1 ling at an expansion and the cost for the scan makes the research costs for borrow already worthwile, not to speak of baneling landmines, which are very cost efficient vs terran even if they dont hit, again because of the scan needed to reveal them.
Really hope that the only thing they might keep from this balance testing, will be the spore crawler change.
|
There is a difference: workers outrun hellbats. Hellbet drops, scv run away. The threat comes from the ability to pick them up and redrop them into to clumped , drawn away worker bunch. This threat only exists if there is no turret in the line, because the medivac wont be able to do the pickup redrop action.
if u dont sleep, u dont loose workers to hellbat drops, and if u build a turret + have some units around, the hellbat drop will never be cost efficient.
If u build a turret in your mineral line, and an oracle comes in. it will kill workers, staying outside of the turret, no matter what. Pulling workers away doesnt help because it is FASTER. if u build like 2 or 3 turrets, toss can go camp your production with it, or kill a reactor or snipe your stim.
I rarely loose workers to hellbats or mines, but to oracle im guaranteed to loose either 8-9 workers in like 3 seconds, or otherwise marines / techlabs /reactors. Oracle with this beam is like having the firepower 3 banshees at once. Watch gstl right now, watch awsomeness of oracle. Buffing it is the wrongest idea ever.
|
On May 03 2013 19:03 Holo82 wrote:
There is a difference: workers outrun hellbats. Hellbet drops, scv run away. The threat comes from the ability to pick them up and redrop them into to clumped , drawn away worker bunch. This threat only exists if there is no turret in the line, because the medivac wont be able to do the pickup redrop action.
if u dont sleep, u dont loose workers to hellbat drops, and if u build a turret + have some units around, the hellbat drop will never be cost efficient.
If u build a turret in your mineral line, and an oracle comes in. it will kill workers, staying outside of the turret, no matter what. Pulling workers away doesnt help because it is FASTER. if u build like 2 or 3 turrets, toss can go camp your production with it, or kill a reactor or snipe your stim.
I rarely loose workers to hellbats or mines, but to oracle im guaranteed to loose either 8-9 workers in like 3 seconds, or otherwise marines / techlabs /reactors. Oracle with this beam is like having the firepower 3 banshees at once. Watch gstl right now, watch awsomeness of oracle. Buffing it is the wrongest idea ever.
DPS of a banshee: 19.2
Gas cost: 100
Range: 6
DPS of an oracle: 29
Gas cost: 150
Range: 4
So no, it is not at all like 3 banshees at once. Oracles are also on a clock when harassing unlike banshees. And if an oracle is camping your production, then you did something seriously wrong, such as not having enough production to begin with. Again, the oracle is on a clock with how its attack works.
Also, it takes the oracle 2 seconds to kill a worker, so I'll just assume the 8-9 workers in 3 seconds means your opponent has 6 oracles. I hope his zealot army at home is good enough to kill your stimmed bio with medivacs, because you should just go and kill him.
|
The biggest problem in nowadays TvP is that DTs come much cheaper now and oracles win the game if you dont have a turret ready because they just evaporate mineral lines. Those 2 things are not advantage gaining most of the time - theyre game winning. Thats exactly why terrans always get 2 turrents in both mineral lines and thats why we so rarely see protosses going for oracles. Players always prepare for those 2 rushes because if they do come you just lose the game. Demuslim talked about it on his stream - he always gets those turrets because against protoss its always better to be safe than sorry and even though out of 10 TvPs lets say youre gonna be 9 times left with earlier ebay and 2 turrets for nothing its that one game that you won just out right lose makeing it worth it.
To be honest I dont know why the see an issue in 1 turret denying the oracles, something that is scouted or taken a precursion of just to be safe should be rewarding. If I went for a cloaked banshee and Protoss has 2 stalkers with obs in each mineral line or a cannon nobody would care about my banshee being useless - they would tell me "You got scouted and denied, deal with it" so why this doesnt apply to protoss? I wouldnt mind a buff to the oracle if the werent frying marines faster than a fricken collosus and blue flame helion together but I think to be fair banshee should also be given a look at.
Balance wise I dont really see why would somebody want to buff protoss now since from what we see they have the better end of all match ups in terms of winrates.
On the other side of things I belive protoss has too many all ins and is the only race that isnt susceptible to any thanks to the siege nexus. Its an uncool feeling when you rightfully lose to a protoss all in that you havent scouted but they just make a nexus cannon and show you the middle finger no matter how surprised by your strategy they are.
Also, it takes the oracle 2 seconds to kill a worker, so I'll just assume the 8-9 workers in 3 seconds means your opponent has 6 oracles. I hope his zealot army at home is good enough to kill your stimmed bio with medivacs, because you should just go and kill him.
You dont even have a factory started when oracles come in and his zealot army and nexus canoon is enought to hold much more than you have as a terran at that point in the game.
|
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
|
Even if the game is a wreck I like that they are rather buffing everything then nerfing shit into the ground. Wish we'd get some old nerfs reverted tho.
|
On May 03 2013 19:12 Scoobers wrote:
To be honest I dont know why the see an issue in 1 turret denying the oracles, something that is scouted or taken a precursion of just to be safe should be rewarding. If I went for a cloaked banshee and Protoss has 2 stalkers with obs in each mineral line or a cannon nobody would care about my banshee being useless - they would tell me "You got scouted and denied, deal with it" so why this doesnt apply to protoss? I wouldnt mind a buff to the oracle if the werent frying marines faster than a fricken collosus and blue flame helion together but I think to be fair banshee should also be given a look at.
Balance wise I dont really see why would somebody want to buff protoss now since from what we see they have the better end of all match ups in terms of winrates.
On the other side of things I belive protoss has too many all ins and is the only race that isnt susceptible to any thanks to the siege nexus. Its an uncool feeling when you rightfully lose to a protoss all in that you havent scouted but they just make a nexus cannon and show you the middle finger no matter how surprised by your strategy they are.
This guy hits the nail on the head:
- If I go cloacked banshee, and the opponent has a turret / obs + stalker / queen + spore ready, then my harass is denied, no problem here.
- I got the feeling that blizzard wants the oracle to do damage, w/e the opponent does.
- At the moment these are the options when protoss opens double gass:
1) proxy oracle
2) DT
3) DT drop
4) voidray allin
5) Blinkstalker allin
6) 4-5gate frontal
7) 4gate prism
8) 3 gate immortal allin
9) 1 base collossus prism allin (I know this sounds ridicilous, but thank god only very few protoss players know a good one)
It's really hard to guess what's coming imo.
|
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Protoss as a race is wrecked, tho, I hate playing it. It's half warcraftesque with heroes and gimmicks, and half coinflippy all-in w/ deathballs.
|
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
|
On May 03 2013 19:21 PVJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better. Protoss as a race is wrecked, tho, I hate playing it. It's half warcraftesque with heroes and gimmicks, and half coinflippy all-in w/ deathballs.
Maybe, but the problem is the gimmicks (forcefields, storm, time warp, warp-ins) are all super strong, so players who abuse them best (Parting, Squirtle, Nani, etc.) do incredibly well with them. Protoss just feel incredibly badly designed compared to Terran (standard production mechanic) and Zerg (larvae at least require you to keep up on injects and maintain a decent bank/proper larva usage). Warp-in anywhere you can get a 100 mineral building up or a Warp Prism and completely negate defenders advantage in drawn out fights?
|
All of these changes make no sense at the highest level of play, I guess long term the oracle may make sense given that top level terrans will get better and better at defending them. But the spore/burrow change is the most unnecessary change I have seen since they randomly removed siege mode upgrade. Zerg pressure/cheese is strong enough without almost free burrow but the spore change is so fucking retarded. They say they only care about the highest level of play, which is great thats how it should be, but at that very level zvz is starting to be fine and people are starting to be able to transition, yet they make this stupid change. I hope none of these go through, hots would be in a better state without this patch.
|
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote:
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Meanwhile the people who don't know what they are talking about can comment? Grubby vs polt @ dreamhack? Or hello, Naniwa vs jaedong? Or do you want more examples?
Tell me the difference between a banshee and an oracle? Oh wait, yes, the banshee kills workers slower. If the enemy has a phoenix or a muta, then the banshee will DIE. And yes, it can be cloacked, but that requires an expensive upgrade. Meanwhile the banshee is as useful as the oracle in battles.
What do you want the oracle to be? A 100% damage doing harass unit that becomes a strong collossus-like unit in battle???
|
On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote:
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game.
Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games.
And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out.
|
On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better.
Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL.
Ok.
|
why still no hellbat change
|
France1526 Posts
On May 03 2013 19:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better. Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL. Ok.
sure taking 1 example out of i do'nt know how many sure prooves your point
in that case we terrans says look at dreamhack!
and sayign that i'm not complaining, what happened there with almost no terran advancing was normal with the competition there was
you can't take a SINGLE tournament as an example
edit : and no hellbat change ask blizz, they are the ones focusing on minor balance when there are bigger issues
|
On May 03 2013 19:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better. Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL. Ok.
This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine.
In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now  FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
|
On May 03 2013 19:38 Syn Harvest wrote:
why still no hellbat change
Changing the hellbat is very risky for mech. Mech is already not so great.. People will counter these hellbat drops better and better, give it some time.
|
On May 03 2013 19:33 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote:
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game. Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games. And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out.
the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
|
Buff all the things!
Considering my expectations to deliver fun and balanced game are on an time low, these changes are great.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
