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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote: They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too. Terran players really are pathetic. Proxy oracle can come in your base as early as 5:20. I don't think anyone is worried about later oracles. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:20 Sissors wrote: The only reason TvZ stats are screwed is because of the WCS QUALIFIERS. Remove them and it is pretty much 50/50. And yes in WCS EU Terrans had a very high advancement rate. But apparently you forgot to mention that zerg had a more players invited. If they would have only invited the best terran/toss EU players and let the zergs do qualifiers they would have had a very high winrate. The point is that terran isn't struggling. I think we can both agree on that. This whole string is in response to someone saying protoss is the only race dominating its mirror matchups. I think most sensible people would say the game is within error of being balanced. That said, the oracle is a really cool unit and I think its use will make the game more enjoyable to watch (and play, I love using oracles lategame). In that sense, I think it's worthwhile to give it a little nudge and see if it will be used more often by pro players. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:10 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races. It is actually funny how people are talking about Hurricane all-killing NSH, while we had like 5 Terrans all-killing a lot better teams in the last 2 months. And I am not alluding that Terran is too strong right now, just that it is stupid to say stuff like that, giving one example of some race is doing fine by just looking at one player while there are a lot more examples on their side... I think that all three races are fine at the pro level. Zerg are doing a bit worse, but I still think that they didn't figure all of the stuff yet, especially the Swarm Hosts. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:25 ZenithM wrote: Proxy oracle can come in your base as early as 5:20. I don't think anyone is worried about later oracles. And with that speed buff, those proxy oracles now hit at 5:19. And we definitely don't want to be buffing those all-ins. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:28 convention wrote: And with that speed buff, those proxy oracles now hit at 5:19. And we definitely don't want to be buffing those all-ins. Lol. I just meant to say that you don't have turrets in place at 5:20, smartass :D. Edit: In fact, there is few builds that I do that don't straight up die to the earliest proxy oracle. That shit really comes fast. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:29 ZenithM wrote: Lol. I just meant to say that you don't have turrets in place at 5:20, smartass :D. Haha, I know. But it was so hard to resist  . | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:22 FrozenProbe wrote: 1) easy to scout, no third pylon on main, just one turret to be safe 2) DT one base? Are we in the wol's beta? c'mon 3) if you're referring to the tails build, is not an allin it's a 2 base extremely greedy macro build, if not see #2 4) it's the same as #1 but I know that this may be strong 5) with free siege mode is the same as other allins, just scout it. 6) ??? and when at 6:00 he don't have an expo wtf are you thinking? 7) is on one gas 8) #6 really pathetic 1. Yes, because toss can't make a pylon outside their base for any other reason. I agree with how popular it is it generally is a proxy oracle, but in principle they can do any built with a pylon outside their base. 2. Where did he say 1 base? Getting also nexus doesn't take much more time and with planetary nexus it also isn't exactly risky. 3. Or he just means DTs dropped in your base. 4. Wait, a proxy pylon was always an oracle, and now it is suddenly a voidray all-in. 5. On most maps siege mode really isn't going to help you much against blink stalkers. Too large range to cover, so if you use tanks they just get picked of one at a time without doing damage. (Really unless all entry points for blink stalkers are covered by a single siege tank I think you are better of with tanks unsieged). 6. Mainly if you notice that at 6:00 you are a bit late... 7. So? How does that matter? 8. #6 | ||
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FrozenProbe
Italy276 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:25 scypio wrote: How exactly do you scout the toss once the stalker gets out? Scan? Then try to pull off your probes at ~4 minutes into the game and let 270 minerals go. Do it versus someone who is executing an early-hitting all-in, see how well does it go for you. A reaper? If you make stalker and msc, half of those allins will be utterly delayed, I know that cannot be safe and doing an expand based on 2 marines for defense can be scary, but you now, maybe you should take a gayser at 12 every game and don't die by stupid old and not competitive allins? | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:31 FrozenProbe wrote: A reaper? If you make stalker and msc, half of those allins will be utterly delayed, I know that cannot be safe and doing an expand based on 2 marines for defense can be scary, but you now, maybe you should take a gayser at 12 every game and don't die by stupid old and not competitive allins? Here is what Snowbear wrote about the reaper and you ignored him: Snowbear wrote: A reaper opening into expand is indeed good for scouting, but after the reaper + expo you have 2 options: - you do like flash, and you make a reactor. Now you have 1 reaper. What if he goes for a stalker mccore push? - you start making marines. You will die against proxy oracle because you will never have enough marines out in time. So the reaper is actually a coinflippy opening IMO. Please someone tell me I am wrong. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:25 scypio wrote: How exactly do you scout the toss once the stalker gets out? Scan? Then try to pull off your probes at ~4 minutes into the game and let 270 minerals go. Do it versus someone who is executing an early-hitting all-in, see how well does it go for you. Get better at reading gas timings, the amount of chrono left and pylon counts. Stay active on the map with your reaper and an scv and you can roughly eliminate most of what a toss can do to you. We do it in PvP facing a similar array of all-ins all the time and it's much harder without a reaper to poke with and or scans. | ||
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FrozenProbe
Italy276 Posts
Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:27 convention wrote: The point is that terran isn't struggling. I think we can both agree on that. I agree that terran isn't struggling, and I don't think any race is, which is why I am at least happy blizzard isn't doing radical balance changes (I think here burrow change has by far the most chance to have a large impact). However that every race has a good chance to win doesn't mean yet that everything is fine. For example the ZvZ matchup, in principle it is balanced race wise (since mirror matchup), but the muta wars aren't really ideal. Similary I am not a big fan of the nexus cannon, I wouldn't mind seeing that nerfed. I do realise that you then need adjustments for the other races to compensate. For example as purely random ideas: Nerf mutas some way (nothing too significant, possibly their move speed). Now nerf planetary nexus a bit for ZvP balance, and to balance the whole thing nerf medivac boost a bit. | ||
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FrozenProbe
Italy276 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:38 Sissors wrote: I agree that terran isn't struggling, and I don't think any race is, which is why I am at least happy blizzard isn't doing radical balance changes (I think here burrow change has by far the most chance to have a large impact). However that every race has a good chance to win doesn't mean yet that everything is fine. For example the ZvZ matchup, in principle it is balanced race wise (since mirror matchup), but the muta wars aren't really ideal. Similary I am not a big fan of the nexus cannon, I wouldn't mind seeing that nerfed. I do realise that you then need adjustments for the other races to compensate. For example as purely random ideas: Nerf mutas some way (nothing too significant, possibly their move speed). Now nerf planetary nexus a bit for ZvP balance, and to balance the whole thing nerf medivac boost a bit. and we will return to WoL, then buff infestors so that will be perfect! | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:40 FrozenProbe wrote: and we will return to WoL, then buff infestors so that will be perfect! Ooh I got an idea, double roach HP and range. Then it will definately be another game than WoL. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:37 FrozenProbe wrote: it's not coinflippy, if you use a reaper and don't understand the proxy oracle you should just quit the game because is not for you, and with the early gas you can just do the standard mine drops that's pretty good. Everyone is using the reaper in TvP, just update your build orders to hots. Yeah, they use the reaper and die to mcs/stalker(+blink) attacks. I do enjoy the game and I will continue to play, thank you. I have no idea why are you so vile, perhaps you should take a walk or something. | ||
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syno
Switzerland150 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:47 scypio wrote: Yeah, they use the reaper and die to mcs/stalker(+blink) attacks. I do enjoy the game and I will continue to play, thank you. I have no idea why are you so vile, perhaps you should take a walk or something. So you're saying if i see that T has a Reaper, all i have to do is a msc + blink stalker attack to win? You should post that in the strategy section. | ||
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Holo82
Austria107 Posts
I actually prefer longterm macro games against toss (with ghosts, vikings, ravens, 20 + rax vs 20 + gates and so on), but it happens so rarely on ladder. "twighlight council scouted, 3 gates, two gas, i prepar for blink allin" . what happens? siegetank is out, highground bunkers are there. getting owned by proxy darkshrine. (or he does goes for blink, and owns me even after having bunkers + tanks out on good positions...) "proxy stargate scouted", 1 stalker comes and saves the stargates pylon from getting killed. T prepares : turret, widowmine, marines at back. what happens? getting 4 gated at the front, not a single oracle was built. "robo was scouted, robo bay working was scouted" What happens? warp prism with speed + no range colossus drop in mineral line + awsome trollish drop micro with colossus + speed prism. All those things are not being holdable without exactly knowing that exactly this allin is coming. and thats the big problem. The problem with the oracle is, that it kills workers even if there are turrets (oracle out range the turret , just put on hold position over the geyser), and it kills them extremely fast. In fact so fast, that it can take 3 shots from the turret,kill 3-4 workers , and retreat, coming back when shield + energy has replenished. I would be fine with oracle dmg, if it wouldnt have detection. He wipes out my workers with oracles, ok i wipe out his with widowmines.... oht it doesnt work, he wipes out my workers, and then detects my widowmines. So its a guaranteed dmg device, that also saves him against all scary things that might happen to him in counter (like wm drop, banshee, dt). | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:50 syno wrote: So you're saying if i see that T has a Reaper, all i have to do is a msc + blink stalker attack to win? You should post that in the strategy section. No. I'm saying that this push is good and has the potential to do damage to a player who chose to go reaper. It is not an auto-win. | ||
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syno
Switzerland150 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:51 Holo82 wrote: i "twighlight council scouted, 3 gates, two gas, i prepar for blink allin" . what happens? siegetank is out, highground bunkers are there. getting owned by proxy darkshrine. (or he does goes for blink, and owns me even after having bunkers + tanks out on good positions...) If he still crushes you with blink stalkers, your tanks were in horrible positions or you failed to control your units. If you know its coming, its not that hard to defend. On May 03 2013 20:51 Holo82 wrote: "proxy stargate scouted", 1 stalker comes and saves the stargates pylon from getting killed. T prepares : turret, widowmine, marines at back. what happens? getting 4 gated at the front, not a single oracle was built. A turret is actually enough. That's a little bit of an overkill right there, don't you think? On May 03 2013 20:51 Holo82 wrote: "robo was scouted, robo bay working was scouted" What happens? warp prism with speed + no range colossus drop in mineral line + awsome trollish drop micro with colossus + speed prism. I assume you built vikings after you scouted the robo bay, which would have easily shut this down. Btw. that sounds pretty awesome :D | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
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FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill. 
