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On May 03 2013 19:42 FrozenProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:33 scypio wrote:On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote:
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game. Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games. And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out. the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have) Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
The efficiency of the all-ins varies. Some builds seem to be really good (3g blink+mcs?), other are a good option for a single game in a BoX series. That is enough.
To much cheese / to strong cheeses make up for a poor ladder experience and a poor viewer experience. Oh, and I play random.
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On May 03 2013 19:42 FrozenProbe wrote:
Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? )
Yes. Zero.
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On May 03 2013 19:42 FrozenProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:33 scypio wrote:On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote:
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game. Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games. And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out. the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have) Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
Well that's my point: very few protoss players know a good 1 base collossus allin (I'm talking about highmaster-grandmaster level), and thank god for that, because it's a hell to hold it. You make bunkers in front, and BAM he comes to your main with a prism. No bunkers in range. How do you think this goes?
Tell me what allin in that list is crap? And a 4-5 gate can be with double gas. It hit's later, but with more sentries.
Reapers can scout untill you got a stalker and a mothershipcore out. Then it's over with the scoutfun.
A reaper opening into expand is indeed good for scouting, but after the reaper + expo you have 2 options:
- you do like flash, and you make a reactor. Now you have 1 reaper. What if he goes for a stalker mccore push?
- you start making marines. You will die against proxy oracle because you will never have enough marines out in time.
So the reaper is actually a coinflippy opening IMO. Please someone tell me I am wrong.
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On May 03 2013 19:42 FrozenProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:33 scypio wrote:On May 03 2013 19:24 FrozenProbe wrote:
reading those posts made me sad, only low plat level players are commentating theese changes? At blizzard does not give a fuck if a bronze player will lose every single game by one oracle, in competitive play, the oracle is never used because is a really bad choice, expensive as hell and hard countered by a bunch of minerals. Yes, it is used in some allinish play, but I don't think that blizzard wants a unit that's good only in an allin, they're trying to encourage the use of an oracle in the entire game, and now is not possible because the first viking or the first muta will kill the oracle.
Pretty sad that this community is always like "my race is up and the other two are op as fuck", and a lot of people are really heavy on that, without any knowledge of the game. Read two posts up. Toss currently has 9 two-gas all-in/cheese builds. It is the variety that makes them so strong - and the lack of ability to guess what in fact is coming. There is absolute no point in buffing these cheesy strats in any way - this will only lead to more short/coinflippy games. And the toss seem to be doing really well in the last couple of weeks (although they did have a rough start in HotS). In fact, I have a feeling that the game has never been balanced that well. I say: don't fix something that is not broken., Let it play out. the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have) Polt versus grubby? Someone that scouts a proxy oracle twice and lose without a single turret is just overconfident, it was something like "yeah, I'm the korean badass here and this poor european won't win against me, even with proxy oracles".. on twitter he said that he played really bad. Get real plz, stop whining on toss allins, especially if you're terran.
Well the point is that Protoss early all-in options do NOT need a buff.
You can't tell anything by pylons, they can just be hidden and still going for a different play. The only thing you can see is 1 or 2 gas, and there are 7 very strong all-ins off 2 gas (proxy stargate, proxy robo, DT, DT warp prism, 3gate stargate, immortal drop, blink). All of them require a precise response or you are dead, and if you prepare for all of them you are dead as well.
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They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
User was temp banned for this post.
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the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have)
In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T:
1) proxy oracle
2) DT
3) DT drop
4) voidray allin
5) Blinkstalker allin
6) 4-5gate frontal
7) 4gate prism
8) 3 gate immortal allin
And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
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On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote:
They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Then I request a banshee at 100 speed, since it only takes 1 turret, 1 spore and 1 cannon to be immune.
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On May 03 2013 19:53 Scoobers wrote:Show nested quote +the poster of that is really biased and don't know that half of those allins are crap (1 colossus prism lol), and you've the reaper, you can scout every single allin, it's pretty easy. No second pylon? It's a fast proxy oracle, no third pylon? It's a standard proxy something or a 4 gate, but a 4 gate is on one gas at most, and you've the repaer you can scout the entire main base of the protoss in a second. Do you know how many allins can throw off a terran behind a wall? (yo I cannot even know how many gaysers you have) In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T: 1) proxy oracle 2) DT 3) DT drop 4) voidray allin 5) Blinkstalker allin 6) 4-5gate frontal 7) 4gate prism 8) 3 gate immortal allin And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
Wow. Those terran pros must be so good to somehow manage to beat protoss every once in a while. I've heard protoss wins lategame, plus they have 8 builds that terran has to guess at or they auto lose (so they win about 87.5% of the time at the very least). I guess that explains the 95% winrate for protoss in TvP.
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On May 03 2013 19:51 murphs wrote:
They can make the oracle move at 100 speed, it still only takes 1 missile turret to be immune. Oh and you get immunity to DTs too.
Terran players really are pathetic.
Fun fact 1: maybe getting an early EB and 2 Turrets slows down Terran's development?
Fun fact 2: Turrets have only 7 range, so they don't perfectly protect both extremities, so you can still pick some SCVs with your Oracle(s).
Fun fact 3: Turrets don't prevent one Oracle from casting Revelation on Medivacs so you can know where is the Terran's army (Rain vs Flash, Neo Planet S, Proleague).
Fun fact 4: Educating oneself before insulting other players is a very useful talent toi have.
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On May 03 2013 19:57 plogamer wrote: Hurricane all kills NSH, including  jjakji. Just sayin'
I see your hurricane, and I raise you a Sound, Byun, Ganzi, and Sc
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All Killing NSH should be excluded from any type of discussion lol.
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On May 03 2013 19:39 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better. Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL. Ok. This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine. In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now  FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill.
Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
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On May 03 2013 20:10 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:39 scypio wrote:On May 03 2013 19:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better. Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL. Ok. This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine. In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill. Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
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Those changes (cheaper borrow, oracle speed buff) could be fine for T if it goes along with a cheaper turret. I mean, terrans are nowadays in desperate needs of turrets (borrow, oracles, DTs, voids, medivac speedboost etc.). With the current cost of turret right now, it is too much of an investment for T in early game, especially facing a 1 base all-in. I'm fine with those changes, as long as the turret cost is reduce by a bit. Thoughts?
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I don't care about balance changes, what's really wrong is their testing method. These maps are badly advertised, they end up being rarely played because small balance tweaks can't attract many people, and there is no control over the skill disparity between players. Ultimately the number of meaningful games with the right composition/gameplay situation and equal (high) skill level is very very low.
They really need to do that ON LADDER. It is really that simple, mark 1-2 ladder maps as "balance testing", make it clear in the loading screen, and put an additional checkbox in the map preferences so that players can choose wheter they want to test or not.
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On May 03 2013 20:10 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:39 scypio wrote:On May 03 2013 19:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better. Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL. Ok. This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine. In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill. Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races.
34 -> 24 (fine) -> 11 -> (fine) -> 7 (more then fine) -> 2 -> 2 -> 1 -> 0
And in Ro16 two strong tosses (Hero and Puzzle) fought each other whereas Sase, Huk and Verdi fell to Code-S Koreans (Hyun, Gumiho and Jaedong). Without the unlucky mirror we could possibly 3 tosses in the ro8 which would mean a steady decline of ~50% per series.
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On May 03 2013 20:16 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 20:10 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On May 03 2013 19:39 scypio wrote:On May 03 2013 19:35 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On May 03 2013 19:12 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
So so far this expansion, the race with the best lategame deathball and AoE in WoL has gotten better units for that deathball (tempest, improved void rays), more tools to hold early aggression (Time Warp, Photon Overcharge) and more options for early aggression of their own (cheaper Dark Shrine, Oracles, Mothership Core added to early timings), with no nerfs to their AoE strengths.
It baffles me that people are focusing on Terran stuff as imba when Protoss are the only race dominating non-mirror matchups at a pro level right now. And now they're getting stuff to make their "all-in" builds like proxy oracle better. Dominating. Three Protoss in RO16 GSL. Ok. This is FIRST HotS GSL and not everything is stable yet. But if you follow more than just one single tournament you will actually find out that yes, the tosses seem to be doing fine. In the GSL sOs looked unstoppable. And in GSTL right now FXO Hurricane seems to be heading for an all-kill. Yeah, against a really not very good NSHS team. Take a look at Dreamhack as well. Protoss started off with a good sized representation, but fell off extremely quickly, more so than the other two races. To add to that, of the 5 all kills in the GSTL, four of them are terran. Of the EU WCS, terran has a ridiculously high advancement rate. Terran is not by any means struggling like this thread sounds. In fact, terran is in a very good spot right now, just like the other races. The game is for the most part balanced (the only spot to keep an eye on right now is terran, yes terran, in TvZ). So small changes to make the game more interesting, such as an incredibly small speed buff to the oracle should be perfectly fine.
The only reason TvZ stats are screwed is because of the WCS QUALIFIERS. Remove them and it is pretty much 50/50. And yes in WCS EU Terrans had a very high advancement rate. But apparently you forgot to mention that zerg had a more players invited. If they would have only invited the best terran/toss EU players and let the zergs do qualifiers they would have had a very high winrate.
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On May 03 2013 19:53 Scoobers wrote:
In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T:
1) proxy oracle
2) DT
3) DT drop
4) voidray allin
5) Blinkstalker allin
6) 4-5gate frontal
7) 4gate prism
8) 3 gate immortal allin
And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them?
1) easy to scout, no third pylon on main, just one turret to be safe
2) DT one base? Are we in the wol's beta? c'mon
3) if you're referring to the tails build, is not an allin it's a 2 base extremely greedy macro build, if not see #2
4) it's the same as #1 but I know that this may be strong
5) with free siege mode is the same as other allins, just scout it.
6) ??? and when at 6:00 he don't have an expo wtf are you thinking?
7) is on one gas
8) #6
really pathetic
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On May 03 2013 20:22 FrozenProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:53 Scoobers wrote:
In fact I do know how many all ins terran can throw off behind his wall, the answer is zero and even if you do something crazy the nexus cannon wins the game everytime. The biased poster here is you, These are the all ins that P has vs T:
1) proxy oracle
2) DT
3) DT drop
4) voidray allin
5) Blinkstalker allin
6) 4-5gate frontal
7) 4gate prism
8) 3 gate immortal allin
And all those are a pain in the butt to hold off even when scouted compared to you just putting on the nexus cannon and feeling fine and dandy. Theyre all amazingly strong, you think theyre crap because you dont have 100% win rate when you do them? 1) easy to scout, no third pylon on main, just one turret to be safe 2) DT one base? Are we in the wol's beta? c'mon 3) if you're referring to the tails build, is not an allin it's a 2 base extremely greedy macro build, if not see #2 4) it's the same as #1 but I know that this may be strong 5) with free siege mode is the same as other allins, just scout it. 6) ??? and when at 6:00 he don't have an expo wtf are you thinking? 7) is on one gas 8) #6 really pathetic
How exactly do you scout the toss once the stalker gets out? Scan? Then try to pull off your probes at ~4 minutes into the game and let 270 minerals go. Do it versus someone who is executing an early-hitting all-in, see how well does it go for you.
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EPT
