EPTCall to Action: May 2 Balance Testing - Page 16
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Utopi
Denmark176 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:12 Sapphire.lux wrote: We had that in beta and it was used mostly for attack. Besides, it's their intention of buffing early game aggression i was commenting on. There are far bigger problems they should be working on, like Protoss still being nothing but a deathball race especially in late game now with an extra layer added on in the shape of the Tempest; mech looking worse then bio in TvT let alone in the other MUs; etc To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units. But 50% of the terrans in this thread think the SC2 universe is dead if the oracle gets a very minor buff. | ||
Rachnar
France1526 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle? 1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons and ultra lategame tvp does favor terran, i'm not complaining about that (even though it just requires to a click from toss and land a few storms, but let's pass on that) | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:12 FrozenProbe wrote: Terrans that are whining on the oracle are pathetic, they play one matchup (yes, the mirror matchup) where they just drop battle hellions for the entire game and kill 50 scvs a game (at least), even with turrets or tanks on defense and now they whine about an oracle? 1. learn to scout 2. put a turrett in your mineral line 3. stop this protoss whine, whining on the worst race ever in sc2 is pretty disgusting I wish I had the link, but grubby explains it pretty well. Protoss is afterall the a-move easy-mode race once you put auto-cast on forcefields and storm. I'll try to find the link... | ||
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-IeZaeL-
Spain327 Posts
Also i dont know why they change the oracle...when medevacs,hellbats and mines are clearly op. :D | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:17 Rachnar wrote: mirror matchups can't be included in balance topics, for obvious reasons His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:18 -IeZaeL- wrote: ZvZ is now in his best moment, u need to attack/defense in 2-3 places at same time with Ling-muta-bane and have a good micro with ur units...looks like the bronzes players criying in the forums+blizzard want the roach vs roach 1A style back. Great =] /No Also i dont know why they change the oracle...when medevacs,hellbats and mines are clearly op. :D funny, talking about how people that don't like BO-win muta/ling/bling "don't want to micro" and lack multitasking and then complaing about medivacs, hellbats and mines because you need to micro and multitask against them... | ||
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Rachnar
France1526 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:19 convention wrote: His point is that in TvT, terrans practically doomdrop all game over missle turrets and workers are slaughtered in the masses. But somehow in TvP, a single oracle that is actually shutdown by missle turrets (unlike 3 medivac hellbat drops) is a huge problem, even though it is also less dps than a standard hellbat drop. thats because we have no efficient defensive units as terran to defend drops, but it's ok since both parties can drop in TvT as protoss, one HT to feedback, a couple of cannons that can also attak ground units once medivac drop, easy to repel as terran, you can't leave a single 2 supply unit that will coutner a drop, and we have no defensive structures to attak ground (don't even mention pf's, they're more then useless for this) | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:23 Rachnar wrote: thats because we have no efficient defensive units as terran to defend drops, but it's ok since both parties can drop in TvT as protoss, one HT to feedback, a couple of cannons that can also attak ground units once medivac drop, easy to repel as terran, you can't leave a single 2 supply unit that will coutner a drop, and we have no defensive structures to attak ground (don't even mention pf's, they're more then useless for this) Play protoss for a few games against terran. You'll see it's not that easy. You'll see that oracles actually don't feel that strong, and that protoss actually has some difficulty defending drops. Sure, leave an HT to feedback, better hope you have enough splash in your army otherwise it'll get rolled by stimmed bio. It's a very tight ledge to walk with leaving HT behind. If that drop gets off without killing the medivac you lose a lot with that HT. And we are talking about oracles. A 100 mineral investment is enough to deter oracles usually. Maybe 200 mineral investment at most. Compare that to the 150 gas investment from a very gas-dependent race. | ||
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Rachnar
France1526 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:29 convention wrote: Play protoss for a few games against terran. You'll see it's not that easy. You'll see that oracles actually don't feel that strong, and that protoss actually has some difficulty defending drops. Sure, leave an HT to feedback, better hope you have enough splash in your army otherwise it'll get rolled by stimmed bio. It's a very tight ledge to walk with leaving HT behind. If that drop gets off without killing the medivac you lose a lot with that HT. And we are talking about oracles. A 100 mineral investment is enough to deter oracles usually. Maybe 200 mineral investment at most. Compare that to the 150 gas investment from a very gas-dependent race. it OBVIUSLY has to cost less to defend something then to be the agressive player, otherwise, there would be no point at all in defending same can be said for cloak banshees, why the hell do you think we don't make any anymore? why not buff THEM?? and i do offrace protoss, my mmr is as high as my main terran account (with an 80% winrate pvt... biggest problem is pvp i've never understood that matchup) | ||
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kubiks
France1328 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:31 Rachnar wrote: and i do offrace protoss, my mmr is as high as my main terran account (with an 80% winrate pvt... biggest problem is pvp i've never understood that matchup) It's like ZvZ, but you replace mutas with phoenix, and infestors with archons  | ||
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Rachnar
France1526 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:34 kubiks wrote: It's like ZvZ, but you replace mutas with phoenix, and infestors with archons I've never understood ZvZ either :p i used to play random but stopped because i sucked at those 2 matchups^^ | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:15 convention wrote: To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units. This is an interesting topic actually. It looks like this is what Blizzards logic was also, create some harass based units==fewer deathballs. That's not what happens though is it? If those harassment based units are good enough, you just build them, and end up with a slightly smaller deathball. Terran can get away with this because they harass with the same units they fight, so in essence they end up splitting their army==no deathball. Similar for Zerg with Mutas and Ling runbys. I guess my point is the Oracle is not a very good/ thought out unit to begin with. | ||
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GodGranas
Germany5 Posts
Spore Craweler Buff... it does more dmg but not even the anti air tower of Terran can hold mass muta harassment. 1 LP/s reg is too much to be afraid of tower. (other races are not involved) Burrow research cost decreased: The best I imagine about it is a burrowed ling under my third.(every race). And that most all-ins are hold now thanks to burrowed roaches. But do you guys even thought for a moment that all zerg will now start roach all-ins in PvZ ? So how to gateway expand? Toss got 3 ways to detect. First is an Tower(FFE which we have to go now every game). Observers, and Oracles which both came way to late or make toss way to vulnerable to attacks. Oracle speed buff: You say a anti air tower or units would make it better? You DO know that you can shift-klick worker so the oracle give a fuck about defence? Worst match up will be now PvP. Thanks. | ||
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syno
Switzerland150 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:41 Sapphire.lux wrote: This is an interesting topic actually. It looks like this is what Blizzards logic was also, create some harass based units==fewer deathballs. That's not what happens though is it? If those harassment based units are good enough, you just build them, and end up with a slightly smaller deathball. Terran can get away with this because they harass with the same units they fight, so in essence they end up splitting their army==no deathball. Similar for Zerg with Mutas and Ling runbys. I guess my point is the Oracle is not a very good/ thought out unit to begin with. Yeah exactly. The problem is, it's just now worth to drop gateway units to harass, they're not costefficient enough imho. As a protoss player, i really dislike the deathball, i wanna be move agressive. But there's almost nothing you can do, phoenix & oracles are quickly shut down with a turret/spore, drops can do some damage ofc, but its nothing compared to a marine/hellbat/widow mine drop. Anyway, i'm not whining, i have big hopes that sOs will show us all how to play protoss properly  | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:15 convention wrote: To make a race less "death-bally" you need to buff their harassment units. To make a race less deathbally, harrassment units are nice. That's not really the core issue with protoss though. The core issue is that stalkers are a pretty bad combat unit and aoe is way to strong. It's not a balance issue, the game is decently balanced around it, but warpgate and the sentry brought us to this point where the stalker(dragoon) couldn't keep up with terran's bio and zerg units(pathing and larvae inject) from BW to SC2. With a stronger gateway army and weaker aoe, units such as the stargate ones would be less allin and served more purpose throughout the game. People often complain about how expensive the oracle is and while that is certainly true, going cloakshee is more expensive and is fine. Reason is starport is awesome, stargate is a dead-end tech due to protoss aoe requirement. There are many reasons why the oracle is a questionable unit, its speed was never a problem. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:22 Big J wrote: funny, talking about how people that don't like BO-win muta/ling/bling "don't want to micro" and lack multitasking and then complaing about medivacs, hellbats and mines because you need to micro and multitask against them... It's not an issue that we have to micro against widow mine, it's a good thing for sure, but the fact the amount of micro to deal against is way more to use it, it's like infestor time again but the other way around. I like the addition of widow mine, it add a lot to the ZvT match up but it looks like an invisible, autocast fungal growth from a zerg perspective. ^_^ | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 03 2013 18:56 syno wrote: Yeah exactly. The problem is, it's just now worth to drop gateway units to harass, they're not costefficient enough imho. As a protoss player, i really dislike the deathball, i wanna be move agressive. But there's almost nothing you can do, phoenix & oracles are quickly shut down with a turret/spore, drops can do some damage ofc, but its nothing compared to a marine/hellbat/widow mine drop. Anyway, i'm not whining, i have big hopes that sOs will show us all how to play protoss properly Have you seen Madbull v Byun in the GSTL? Madbull was aggressive the whole game with constant harassment, plus it was a really good game (it was the first match, so the replay is free to watch). | ||
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