The comparison of streamers to "camwhores" was frighteningly apt.
--
I mostly agree with Richard Lewis. Everyone who donated to Root, donated to an organization who tried to create a teamhouse before and failed. They donated to an organization which is a revolving door for players; they stop by so they're not "teamless," then leave when any other team offers them *anything.* They donated to an organization which closed up shop so that Catz and Drewbie could play on Col.
Essentially, they donated in the hopes of growing ESPORTS and ROOT when there is every indication that Catz will fail. For Pete's sake! Their new sponsor makes gamer business cards! The owners of Gunnar glasses are probably saying "damn that's useless..."
So I agree with RL. But some part of me is still hoping Catz can pull it off. A year or so ago Desrow went to Korea. There was talk of him becoming a top foreigner, making it to the GSL, you know, crazy pipe dreams. I knew who wouldn't make it. He wasn't a hard worker who ground 50 games a day. He didn't have any hand speed. Just didn't have any of the tools. But I wished him GLHF and truly hoped he'd make it. Same for Root.
Not really a fan of authors who assume that fans that are donating money aren't aware of what they are doing or that it is a risk involved. But I guess calling a group of people naive is a good way to get a lot of page views and attention.
On May 02 2013 05:00 Zeevo wrote: Richard Lewis is absolutely correct. This new "donation" - eSports business is godawful and makes it hard to take eSports seriously sometimes. Anyone that donated got swindled into investing into a house and a team that produces next to no income. Catz should be ashamed of himself.
Random question - do you feel this way when "donating" the $5 more for a hot dog while at a sporting event? How about Packers fans buying "stock" in that venerable franchise? How about this twitter campaign by Manchester United fans? (For that matter, anyone supporting the Cubs in anyway.)
Fans want to support teams they want to support. This is NOT an "eSports" thing. This is a fan thing. Stop trying to sound the "hurting eSports" bell.
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
So, to summarize your post - there is no such thing as professional video game players. Because it's not a "real job". Can you elaborate on that? Because I sure as hell would think destroying your eyesight by spending 12 hours staring at a screen while coordinating actions strenuously enough to cause wrist strain could be considered a "real job". (Well, except that I am required by law to have multiple breaks, not work more than 40 hours a week before being compensated at a higher rate and with a cap on how many hours I can work in total. And what I do is not even as strenuous as professional level gaming.)
not at all what I said.
I said people who depend on donations, are obviously not actually making a career of "being a pro-gamer" as much as a homeless guy makes a career out of holding a sign on the side of the road.
this is the equivalent of hanging out at a major league baseball park in a uniform, begging for money and then saying "im a pro baseball player" because he also plays baseball on his free time.
There are people who are making actual careers, (and some pretty damn good ones) being pro gamers. But there are a LOT more people, who just spend all day every day playing video games but claim the title "Im a progamer" to avoid the reality that is "im a lazy piece of shit who doesn't want to join the workforce"
Screw Richard lewis. He thinks himself so important that if he ever perceives that you slighted him, he takes the woe is me approach of how dare you slight me and then writes an insulting article about you to get back at you. His day9 piece was one the most pathetic pieces of trash ever written.
Catz is well within his right to ask for donations because no one is forced to donate. I only have one issue with the root house. Catz is planning to put it in SF, which is one of the most expensive cities to live in, so I don't think that's the wisest use of donation money as it won't last that long staying in sf compared to other places in cali.
On May 02 2013 05:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Whatever. ROOT is the Green Bay Packers, owned and funded by the public. Suck on that, Richard Lewis.
Owned by Catz :o
Is Catz not of the people?
Tax payer dollars often fund new stadiums or stadium renovations for major teams.
In the case of the packers...
"Another stock sale occurred late in 1997 and early in 1998. It added 105,989 new shareholders and raised over $24 million, money used for the Lambeau Field redevelopment project. Priced at $200 per share, fans bought 120,010 shares during the 17-week sale, which ended March 16, 1998. "
These fucking beggars of a NFL team, fucking asking for money to do some renovations. How dare they.
On May 02 2013 05:30 Canucklehead wrote: Screw Richard lewis. He thinks himself so important that if he ever perceives that you slighted him, he takes the woe is me approach of how dare you slight me and then writes an insulting article about you to get back at you. His day9 piece was one the most pathetic pieces of trash ever written.
Catz is well within his right to ask for donations because no one is forced to donate. I only have one issue with the root house. Catz is planning to put it in SF, which is one of the most expensive cities to live in, so I don't think that's the wisest use of donation money as it won't last that long staying in sf compared to other places in cali.
agreed with this.
they could literally cut their costs in HALF, and they could buy a damn Van with part of their savings, if they would plan a bit smarter, and think "cost efficiency". For instance, moving outside of SF, to a more modest/urban neighborhood. Ya living in the burbs may not be as "fun and edgy" as living in SF, but its also 1/2 the price.
this is one of the falls of being handed money in donations tho... you are not as...creative when it comes to spending.
35,000 which they have already reached... could easily cover a year+ for a team house, if they were smart with their money.
I don't know how 75,000 was reached, but I guess if everyone wants their own room/top $$ computer/all expenses paid -food, travel, bills, literally every dollar each of them makes should be pure profit for at LEAST.. a year.
I see the truth in what he writes and I'm not too fond of ROOT's campaign in the first place, but bringing up Destiny reeks of attention-whoring, borderline trolling :D
On May 02 2013 05:00 Zeevo wrote: Richard Lewis is absolutely correct. This new "donation" - eSports business is godawful and makes it hard to take eSports seriously sometimes. Anyone that donated got swindled into investing into a house and a team that produces next to no income. Catz should be ashamed of himself.
Random question - do you feel this way when "donating" the $5 more for a hot dog while at a sporting event? How about Packers fans buying "stock" in that venerable franchise? How about this twitter campaign by Manchester United fans? (For that matter, anyone supporting the Cubs in anyway.)
Fans want to support teams they want to support. This is NOT an "eSports" thing. This is a fan thing. Stop trying to sound the "hurting eSports" bell.
On May 02 2013 05:03 MaestroSC wrote:
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
So, to summarize your post - there is no such thing as professional video game players. Because it's not a "real job". Can you elaborate on that? Because I sure as hell would think destroying your eyesight by spending 12 hours staring at a screen while coordinating actions strenuously enough to cause wrist strain could be considered a "real job". (Well, except that I am required by law to have multiple breaks, not work more than 40 hours a week before being compensated at a higher rate and with a cap on how many hours I can work in total. And what I do is not even as strenuous as professional level gaming.)
not at all what I said.
I said people who depend on donations, are obviously not actually making a career of "being a pro-gamer" as much as a homeless guy makes a career out of holding a sign on the side of the road.
this is the equivalent of hanging out at a major league baseball park in a uniform, begging for money and then saying "im a pro baseball player" because he also plays baseball on his free time.
There are people who are making actual careers, (and some pretty damn good ones) being pro gamers. But there are a LOT more people, who just spend all day every day playing video games but claim the title "Im a progamer" to avoid the reality that is "im a lazy piece of shit who doesn't want to join the workforce"
Oh come on that's a little harsh. The job "professional gamer" is not developed at all yet. It's still growing (and pretty quickly too!). If everyone had your mindset, nothing new would ever emerge or grow. They are not "lazy [pieces] of shit", they are trying to make it in a job that is very competitive and not fully established yet. They are pioneers.
I kind of think of it like a more intimate version of Shark Tank without a direct monetary return on the investment. Investors (fans of progaming) help a company that does not have the capital to succeed (pro gamers) so that in the future they can return their investment several times over (pro gaming can become an established career, others can enter the profession more easily, you can be entertained more, or, simply, you get good feels from donating to your favorite team).
On May 02 2013 05:19 aike wrote: Professional sports teams go to the public all the time for help in expanding or building new stadiums. How is this any different?
I think the distinction that is to be made is that for mainstream professional clubs the fans get something in exchange. For example, the Edmonton Oilers, a professional NHL team, was in danger of going under a few decades ago, and there was a big community effort to keep the team afloat. This was done by the community buying up season tickets and other merchandise. In short, the people who "donated" got something tangible in return. I think the main problem people have with the Root house is that it seems more like a "charity" kind of donation. I think if you donated a certain amount you got some special benefits like the chance to join the official Root chat channels, jerseys, etc, but that doesn't really compare to something like a season ticket. And yes, I know that as an eSports team something like a season ticket really has no equivalent, and I know Root can't offer something similar to it. But the point is it makes Root seem more like a charity case and less of a "legitimate" club.
Edit: also, the jerseys I believe were only available to the top donors, unlike a season ticket which was available to anyone who "donated" for one.
On May 02 2013 05:19 aike wrote: Professional sports teams go to the public all the time for help in expanding or building new stadiums. How is this any different?
I think the distinction that is to be made is that for mainstream professional clubs the fans get something in exchange. For example, the Edmonton Oilers, a professional NHL team, was in danger of going under a few decades ago, and there was a big community effort to keep the team afloat. This was done by the community buying up season tickets and other merchandise. In short, the people who "donated" got something tangible in return. I think the main problem people have with the Root house is that it seems more like a "charity" kind of donation. I think if you donated a certain amount you got some special benefits like the chance to join the official Root chat channels, jerseys, etc, but that doesn't really compare to something like a season ticket. And yes, I know that as an eSports team something like a season ticket really has no equivalent, and I know Root can't offer something similar to it. But the point is it makes Root seem more like a charity case and less of a "legitimate" club.
Edit: also, the jerseys I believe were only available to the top donors, unlike a season ticket which was available to anyone who "donated" for one.
When it comes to building a new stadium, the teams ask the public for help in one way or the other, either by directly asking for money or through having the people vote on a tax increase to build the stadium. In the case of like the packers, they will sell some shares for a certain price to raise money. This isn't like a normal share in a company, as the share itself doesn't really hold value. So basically you donate $250 per share and all you get is a certificate saying you are a shareholder
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
"a real job"
Mind stepping down off your pedestal so we can talk for a minute?
No one is forcing you to give away anything. Not comfortable with it? Cool, don't.
I'm just curious how you expect a majority of the players to survive, without community support.
Would you like them all to be living in a basement while asking mommy and daddy for allowance every month so they can buy ramen noodles every night.
Do you think 95% of the players can "make it" on their own?
If people didn't want to donate, they wouldn't have. If they enjoy the stream, and want to make sure it stays around, they donate 5 or 10 dollars, or sub, or buy a lesson or whatever. They spend their time watching the stream, or like the player or whatever, and want to support them.
As far as the article goes I can see the point he is making, but it's pretty clear he has quite a bit of hatred. He hasn't liked root for a long time now. He posts stuff like this trying to make them go viral so he can get over 20 views.
On May 02 2013 05:19 aike wrote: Professional sports teams go to the public all the time for help in expanding or building new stadiums. How is this any different?
I think the distinction that is to be made is that for mainstream professional clubs the fans get something in exchange. For example, the Edmonton Oilers, a professional NHL team, was in danger of going under a few decades ago, and there was a big community effort to keep the team afloat. This was done by the community buying up season tickets and other merchandise. In short, the people who "donated" got something tangible in return. I think the main problem people have with the Root house is that it seems more like a "charity" kind of donation. I think if you donated a certain amount you got some special benefits like the chance to join the official Root chat channels, jerseys, etc, but that doesn't really compare to something like a season ticket. And yes, I know that as an eSports team something like a season ticket really has no equivalent, and I know Root can't offer something similar to it. But the point is it makes Root seem more like a charity case and less of a "legitimate" club.
Edit: also, the jerseys I believe were only available to the top donors, unlike a season ticket which was available to anyone who "donated" for one.
When it comes to building a new stadium, the teams ask the public for help in one way or the other, either by directly asking for money or through having the people vote on a tax increase to build the stadium. In the case of like the packers, they will sell some shares for a certain price to raise money. This isn't like a normal share in a company, as the share itself doesn't really hold value. So basically you donate $250 per share and all you get is a certificate saying you are a shareholder
I've never liked the no strings attached money. Instead of "donations" this should've been more investment driven so people who believed in Root buy shares of Root. If they never bother cashing in their shares because they wanted it to be a true donation then that is their prerogative. Then there is a little more incentive in doing the right thing with the money since you actually have to grow it. People that get free money tend to blow it on unnecessary things since, "hey! it's just free money anyways". Which plenty of people have pointed out, moving to SF isn't exactly the best way to make cost effective use of the money.
I'm not even going to get into the fact that Root has sponsors who should be providing something like this if it's in the best interest of the team/company to grow it. The fact that they didn't step up and they had to start asking fans for money doesn't really give me confidence. We'll see how it works out.
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
"a real job"
Mind stepping down off your pedestal so we can talk for a minute?
No one is forcing you to give away anything. Not comfortable with it? Cool, don't.
I'm just curious how you expect a majority of the players to survive, without community support.
Would you like them all to be living in a basement while asking mommy and daddy for allowance every month so they can buy ramen noodles every night.
Do you think 95% of the players can "make it" on their own?
If people didn't want to donate, they wouldn't have. If they enjoy the stream, and want to make sure it stays around, they donate 5 or 10 dollars, or sub, or buy a lesson or whatever. They spend their time watching the stream, or like the player or whatever, and want to support them.
As far as the article goes I can see the point he is making, but it's pretty clear he has quite a bit of hatred. He hasn't liked root for a long time now. He posts stuff like this trying to make them go viral so he can get over 20 views.
again,
not saying nobody should donate. Just said I wasn't comfortable with giving away my money for this.
And esports is just like every other sport, those who deserve to make it, will make it.
Nobody is handing washed up baseball players who never made it out of the minor leagues money so they can still call themselves "professional baseball players"
my friend (really an acquaintance) has been chasing his dream for the past 7 years, he just got cut from his minor league team this year. He was a professional baseball player up til this point.
But now, society and his competition have deemed him unnecessary and unworthy of being paid to play baseball professionally for any longer.
While not every single person who calls himself a "pro gamer" is actually worthy of being one, and that's why they are not "making it" as one. They are "living off their parents, in the basement" just like you put it.
This is how competitive job markets work, some people will make it, others wont. I want to be a professional gamer, but I am shit in comparison to professional SC2 players (im master level.../cheer for me I know... *sarcasm*) But because its such a competitive scene, I CANNOT scrape a living and make enough money, being a "professional SC2 gamer" so I accept that I am not a pro-gamer and I move on.
Right now there are countless amount of people who consider themselves "pro-gamers" who simply aren't. And they are the same ones begging for donations on stream.
Im just a believer in natural selection, both in nature, and in the workforce I guess.
The scene will support the players who deserve it (most often). If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't currently be ANY financially successful pro-gamers, but there ARE successful (successful enough that they can eat/sleep/play/support themselves) gamers, which proves that it IS plausible and possible.
Not saying any of this is the case for Root. I think Root is simply "jumpstarting" with their donations, and getting to a goal they would reach eventually if they wanted it badly enough.
Again, if people want to donate to Root, go for it. I wont say that YOU shouldn't. Im just saying, its not how I choose to support. I bought a Root gaming t-shirt, because I like it and it benefitted both of us, and was much more logical way to support the team, for me personally.
I have a brother who washed out of Motocross, after a major crash which game him a condition that does not allow him to ride motorcycles competitively anymore, he doesn't beg for money so he can call himself a "pro motocross rider"
IDK
its just my opinion that the scene will always naturally support the ones who deserve it (most often, there are definitely Flukes *cough*(desrow)/circumstances which can stop potential players)
again, not saying that playing video games cant be a real career, just saying maybe a lot more people should realize its not a career for any/every one.
And I have actually been considering opening my own house to potential pro-gamers who are simply lacking "support" As my day job allows me to own my own 3 bedroom house in Southern california, and I am the only one living in it currently. potential project/idea for the future, is just a LOT of possibilities/hiccups id need to work out.
Ultimately this comes back to the issue of eSports not being developed enough yet to provide stable income for many of the people involved in the industry.
Do I think Root should have just gone out and gotten a low interest 30 year fixed mortgage loan for the house (easily doable with interest rates the way they are these days)? Absolutely! They probably could have covered the monthly mortgage cost by combining income from the live-in's. Of course, that may have requried a re-negotiation of contracts but hey! That's life.
From the sheer perspective that they were able to generate enough publicity and community donations and helps to achieve their goal without setting themselves up with long term debt as a result? That is truly efficient and the rewards were within reason, I do not understand how someone could be mad about that. If anything, it was a stroke of genius that secured their residence and place of employment for a year. Did I donate? Heck no, I'm too busy worrying about my own monthly payments. But I digress, now all they have to worry about are utilities, normal expenses, insurance, and the like. So even that little bit of extra money not having to deal with rent/mortgage for a month means 1 more Root player gets a chance to show up at tournaments and potentially make a good prize payout, increasing the reputation and solidifying the business model that much more. Potentially it is a move to guarantee additional monies from sponsors as a result.
EPT
