Richard Lewis from cadred.org has shared his thoughts on the root gaming house campaign. Link to the article And here is a part of said article.
Whatever you think of all that, there was a new low recently that is the e-sports equivalent of the homeless beggar that sits by a cashpoint and then asks you for change. Except, you know, he actually has a good reason for doing it. It was no surprise to see Root Gaming involved either, a recent string of incredibly bad judgement calls making the one professional decision that e-sports deemed they made correctly – the parting of the ways with Steven “Destiny” Bonnell – look like some sort of fluke moment of clarity. Since then they seem to have consistently plumbed the depths in a desperate bid to look anything other than a small time organisation that was one time relevant in a game when it was in beta.
You see, they want YOU to buy them a gaming house. Many top organisations have found ways and means to pay for them – and can actually justify them through excellence in the field of e-sports – but ROOT offer so much to the e-sports landscape that it’s only fair you make a contribution to that. If that doesn’t get you reaching for your wallets and hastily logging into Paypal just check out the tawdry incentives…
After reading a few of his articles i disliked Richard Lewis quite a lot, but I still thought he was a reasonable guy with a different opinion. But after reading this i am simply amazed that this guy calls himself a journalist. Here is my reddit post answering his article
Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for a professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
On May 02 2013 04:00 Benjamin99 wrote: Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for a professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
yes there is but he covered that with so much misinformation and speculation that you cant actually see the point.
On May 02 2013 04:00 Benjamin99 wrote: Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for an professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
Yup, absolutely. People can do whatever the hell they want when it comes to their money, within the bounds of the law. If they want to give it to ROOT for a house, nobody gets to say that's "wrong". Crowd-funding is more and more commonplace these days. You can call it begging all you want, but as much as you want it to, it does not delegitimize the organization or the fundraising effort.
You're right, It reads more like a forum post from TL or reddit than it does a piece of journalism,
What I like about Root is their story. It just started with Catz and Drewbie playing 2v2. Now they have sponsors and Koreans on their roster. While they have made questionable decisions, I like to give them the benefit of the doubt. They're the underdogs.
Have never liked Richard Lewis or Cadred for that matter. But I am definately not a fan of teams asking for money. I remember vVv doing it and I thought it was out-right pathetic. At least with ROOT you have a general idea of where the money is going though.
On May 02 2013 03:55 Fabozi wrote: Richard Lewis from cadred.org has shared his thoughts on the root gaming house campaign. Link to the article And here is a part of said article.
Whatever you think of all that, there was a new low recently that is the e-sports equivalent of the homeless beggar that sits by a cashpoint and then asks you for change. Except, you know, he actually has a good reason for doing it. It was no surprise to see Root Gaming involved either, a recent string of incredibly bad judgement calls making the one professional decision that e-sports deemed they made correctly – the parting of the ways with Steven “Destiny” Bonnell – look like some sort of fluke moment of clarity. Since then they seem to have consistently plumbed the depths in a desperate bid to look anything other than a small time organisation that was one time relevant in a game when it was in beta.
You see, they want YOU to buy them a gaming house. Many top organisations have found ways and means to pay for them – and can actually justify them through excellence in the field of e-sports – but ROOT offer so much to the e-sports landscape that it’s only fair you make a contribution to that. If that doesn’t get you reaching for your wallets and hastily logging into Paypal just check out the tawdry incentives…
After reading a few of his articles i disliked Richard Lewis quite a lot, but I still thought he was a reasonable guy with a different opinion. But after reading this i am simply amazed that this guy calls himself a journalist. Here is my reddit post answering his article
If he would of even bothered to check out the actual fundraiser as it happened he would of seen they were more than willing to go further into details of their plans, what the money is going toward, and what they would do if this didn't work out...I would post these things, but I doubt he would even bother to read them because it seems he has no idea how to be an actual journalist and give something other than his own opinion (ie. facts).
On May 02 2013 04:03 grs wrote: The wording and agressiveness in his article puts me off, but he has a point, doesn't he?
There is a point in there but people gave the money away knowing they wont get the info about every dollar. And shitting on chobopeon and than proceeding to spill bullshit is just hilarious.
On May 02 2013 04:16 Torte de Lini wrote: Richard Lewis would have a point if he fucking drew more examples from both sides of the tale. You have BeyondTheSummit who wanted to do something of a studio and was raised by fans of the scene and the people part of BTS.
You have other kickstarters, ones that failed and others that are about documentaries. He could have talked about TL's approach towards a "make first, pay what you want for its worth later" and how that should be more optimal when catering to the charitable side of communities and E-Sports.
But instead, he gripped his anger at ROOT, bled his hand on a thorn so he could scrawl a veil of an actual issue to just perpetuating issues and holes with ROOT's fundraiser (which there are a few problems, but there are examples also imitating similarly before ROOT).
Could have went from general to specifics to an overlying general point of how this scene is built (from the bottom and at the top). But it feels more like setting the stage of a general issue and then making ROOT the prime suspect.
I mean for the love of God, you could have targeted some people who beg for donations purely to send themselves to travel to events. Not even players, just people and they actually get a large amount...
I've never been impressed with this guy's writing nor his idea of the "scene" and this article just further supports such beliefs. He writes with an authority that goes wholly unsubstantiated and ends up coming off like a tabloid journalist.
On May 02 2013 04:00 Benjamin99 wrote: Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for a professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
yes it is.
it's not like they're lying about where the moneys going. they are saying "give us your money to help us build a house" and people are like, "ok, heres my money"
there's nothing unethical or tricky or sneaky about it.
People shouldn't be allowed to abuse the community so much. It's the same as nowdays' Kickstarter trend to ask people for money to make a game that you have to buy afterwards. Totally wtf
On May 02 2013 04:00 Benjamin99 wrote: Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for an professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
Yup, absolutely. People can do whatever the hell they want when it comes to their money, within the bounds of the law. If they want to give it to ROOT for a house, nobody gets to say that's "wrong". Crowd-funding is more and more commonplace these days. You can call it begging all you want, but as much as you want it to, it does not delegitimize the organization or the fundraising effort.
That's exactly what I thought. Nobody's forcing people to give them money, if they have fans who want to support the players then what's the problem?
I have no opinion on the subject except that, if Root offers so much entertainment to their fans that people are willing to donate money towards a gaming house then who are we to say that is wrong or right? Call it begging, or whatever, but if people are compelled enough to go through with it then that's their prerogative.
On May 02 2013 04:12 synd wrote: He has a point but no one from community will ever try to think about it since CatZ is so much liked by the community.
People shouldn't be allowed to abuse the community so much. It's the same as nowdays' Kickstarter trend to ask people for money to make a game that you have to buy afterwards. Totally wtf
If organizations asking for money amounts to abuse, than I think there are million better places to start pointing fingers.
Wow somehow i totaly agree on this point. I dont really like the way it is presented but the point is valid and i dont think Root really thought that through
Richard Lewis would have a point if he fucking drew more examples from both sides of the tale. You have BeyondTheSummit who wanted to do something of a studio and was raised by fans of the scene and the people part of BTS.
You have other kickstarters, ones that failed and others that are about documentaries. He could have talked about TL's approach towards a "make first, pay what you want for its worth later" and how that should be more optimal when catering to the charitable side of communities and E-Sports.
But instead, he gripped his anger at ROOT, bled his hand on a thorn so he could scrawl a veil of an actual issue to just perpetuating issues and holes with ROOT's fundraiser (which there are a few problems, but there are examples also imitating similarly before ROOT).
Could have went from general to specifics to an overlying general point of how this scene is built (from the bottom and at the top). But it feels more like setting the stage of a general issue and then making ROOT the prime suspect.
Didn't Richard Lewis have a rage enema against Catz before? It was pretty clear he'd eventually write a buttfrustrated blog post about it thinly disguised as a news article.
On May 02 2013 04:16 Glurkenspurk wrote: Didn't Richard Lewis have a rage enema against Catz before? It was pretty clear he'd eventually write a buttfrustrated blog post about it thinly disguised as a news article.
^100% this, even if he isn't hurt still, he could have at least stretch this post out more.
What a douche. No, it's not unethical, it's exactly like a Kickstarter : People give money to help make something happen, not because they feel pity, but because they want that something to happen.
On May 02 2013 04:16 Torte de Lini wrote: Richard Lewis would have a point if he fucking drew more examples from both sides of the tale. You have BeyondTheSummit who wanted to do something of a studio and was raised by fans of the scene and the people part of BTS.
You have other kickstarters, ones that failed and others that are about documentaries. He could have talked about TL's approach towards a "make first, pay what you want for its worth later" and how that should be more optimal when catering to the charitable side of communities and E-Sports.
But instead, he gripped his anger at ROOT, bled his hand on a thorn so he could scrawl a veil of an actual issue to just perpetuating issues and holes with ROOT's fundraiser (which there are a few problems, but there are examples also imitating similarly before ROOT).
Could have went from general to specifics to an overlying general point of how this scene is built (from the bottom and at the top). But it feels more like setting the stage of a general issue and then making ROOT the prime suspect.
Psshhhhh, this would require actual journalism! I don't think such a thing can be tolerated.
On May 02 2013 04:12 synd wrote: He has a point but no one from community will ever try to think about it since CatZ is so much liked by the community.
People shouldn't be allowed to abuse the community so much. It's the same as nowdays' Kickstarter trend to ask people for money to make a game that you have to buy afterwards. Totally wtf
Every kickstarter I have seen if you pay a certain amount in donations you get the game included + early beta access. It's pretty much an extremely early pre-order if you pay that much. Now if you only donate 5-10$ then yeah you'll have to buy the game. But yeah no you don't donate to a kickstarter and then get nothing in return and if you donate that much money you are getting the game with it.
People who are so retarded that they donate thousands of dollars for some gaming house, rather than to charity/kids who are starving in Africa, don't deserve to have money anyway.
You should see that as a good thing. It just shows crowd funding actually works. Fans care and like Root, so they raised their 30K needed. Apparently they don't care at all about AbsoluteLegends, which is why they've barely received any pledges.
People support things they genuinely care about. It's really hard as a scam crowd funding to make people genuinely care about it, which is why most of them fail.
You should see that as a good thing. It just shows crowd funding actually works. Fans care and like Root, so they raised their 30K needed. Apparently they don't care at all about AbsoluteLegends, which is why they've barely received any pledges.
People support things they genuinely care about. It's really hard as a scam crowd funding to make people genuinely care about it, which is why most of them fail.
It works if you cater to your fans. ROOT does, despite the skepticism that they're just pandering.
I thought the article had some merit despite its incendiary tone. Why would you want to give money to what has essentially become a team of gaming "personalities" with no results to speak of in recent memory? ROOT seem like cool dudes but there are far more legitimate/competitive teams I would rather donate cash to.
That is my opinion of course. If you're interested in sponsoring me as a player or TL poster, please shoot me a message.
why create unnecessary drama? I donated to Root because I support their cause. I've always wanted to support Esports/teams in some way, I love Catz and what he's doing, and am willing to give up a month of Chipotle for that.
Its like a tip jar... or a bake sale... Lets stop acting like ROOT gaming is the LA Lakers. They just offered a medium for people who WANT to donate to do so.
On May 02 2013 04:22 KanoCoke wrote: Richard Lewis deserves all the pitchforks coming his way, judging from his "article".
I'm fairly certain that's why he did this. He knows that he will get a lot of hate and a lot of views/attention. It is pathetic that he has to stoop so low to get any attention. Shame on anyone who wants to support something they enjoy, for shame.
"Hello, I say something people will get upset about. Giev me teh viewerz!! Post on reddit, make me teh viewerz"
Did CatZ tell him to go fuck himself sometime in the past, or what's the real story behind this? Such an aggressive tone surely doesn't come out of nowhere. He seems mad.
On May 02 2013 04:24 IPA wrote: I thought the article had some merit despite its incendiary tone. Why would you want to give money to what has essentially become a team of gaming "personalities" with no results to speak of in recent memory? ROOT seem like cool dudes but there are far more legitimate/competitive teams I would rather donate cash to.
That is my opinion of course. If you're interested in sponsoring me as a player or TL poster, please shoot me a message.
It is your right as a consumer to consider results a useful standard with which to judge donations, but judging others' taste in entertainment choices is rather juvenile, which is what the article ends up sounding like. I'm not the biggest fan of Root, but a ton of people enjoy supporting a homegrown team, full of interesting personalities, that has an interest in making sure the NA scene stays active. To suggest that these people are somehow wrong or hoodwinked by an evil Peruvian mastermind is to misunderstand the nature of commercial popularity in the first place.
After reading the article, I think he has a point with whole beggar thing and how no other business in the world could do the same thing. Sure the article is written in a very controversial and even a mean way, but he does have a point.
On May 02 2013 04:30 namste wrote: After reading the article, I think he has a point with whole beggar thing and how no other business in the world could do the same thing. Sure the article is written in a very controversial and even a mean way, but he does have a point.
Yeah, no other business except every other project on Kickstarter...
On May 02 2013 04:30 namste wrote: After reading the article, I think he has a point with whole beggar thing and how no other business in the world could do the same thing. Sure the article is written in a very controversial and even a mean way, but he does have a point.
I agree with this.
Definitely more comfortable with the "Make first, Den pay what you think its worth" approach.
Don't get it. Who is Richard Lewis? Or have I been living in a bubble? Just sounds like another cry baby who wants to stir up controversy from what I read. Last time I checked the person who uses my money to give away or to purchase something is myself and not ROOT Gaming holding a gun to my head making me donate.
I'm a terrible person for donating money to something I care about? I think the Root house is a good vision and can only be seen as positive for the NA and pro-scene. While I think a charity like Doctors Without Borders is a better cause, I have nothing wrong with people asking for donations to do what they want. It's the same as people having "Subscriptions" on twitch, just to a smaller degree. Now, I would be a bit bothered if Root gaming spent all of that money on booze and hookers instead of a team house, but I highly doubt that is what will happen.
I'm afraid Richard Lewis just embarrassed himself, is all. Total Biscuit, farva, and Torte all put it nicely.
On May 02 2013 04:24 IPA wrote: I thought the article had some merit despite its incendiary tone. Why would you want to give money to what has essentially become a team of gaming "personalities" with no results to speak of in recent memory? ROOT seem like cool dudes but there are far more legitimate/competitive teams I would rather donate cash to.
That is my opinion of course. If you're interested in sponsoring me as a player or TL poster, please shoot me a message.
It is your right as a consumer to consider results a useful standard with which to judge donations, but judging others' taste in entertainment choices is rather juvenile, which is what the article ends up sounding like. I'm not the biggest fan of Root, but a ton of people enjoy supporting a homegrown team, full of interesting personalities, that has an interest in making sure the NA scene stays active. To suggest that these people are somehow wrong or hoodwinked by an evil Peruvian mastermind is to misunderstand the nature of commercial popularity in the first place.
It is also my right to judge others' entertainment choices though, juvenile or not. If you listen to Generic Pop Star #34 or love Michael Bay 'splosions, I'm going to judge you.
I harbor no ill will towards ROOT. Just giving my .02.
On May 02 2013 04:20 edlover420 wrote: People who are so retarded that they donate thousands of dollars for some gaming house, rather than to charity/kids who are starving in Africa, don't deserve to have money anyway.
unfortunately for you its their money and they can choose how/when/what to do with their hard earn cash.
This is so fucking disgusting it makes me want to vomit.
These losers have raised $35k! They are running around acting like a charity case when in reality they are just immature/irresonsible kids who want free money to live out their "dream".
Where the fuck will this money go? They didn't provide ANY breakdown of costs but the estimate is $75k. The extra $ goes to who? Catz wallet?
Oh boy, the "e-sports community" is one of the dumbest fucking communities in existence. Better teams have tried to find sustainable ways to carry on their business, but ROOT is taking a nice shortcut to success. What happens when the $75k runs out? What is their SUSTAINABLE plan? Ask idiots (I'm sorry but that's exactly what they are) for more money?
This kind of shit should not be allowed by law, as far as I see it these kids are simply committing fraud.
Maybe Catz will just buy himself a nice car? Who the fuck knows, surely the people who are giving away their money don't.
The sad part is, ROOT players are absolute shit tier. A team house will NOT help them get better, they all have been playing this game for way too long to all of a sudden get THAT much better at this game.
On May 02 2013 04:24 IPA wrote: I thought the article had some merit despite its incendiary tone. Why would you want to give money to what has essentially become a team of gaming "personalities" with no results to speak of in recent memory? ROOT seem like cool dudes but there are far more legitimate/competitive teams I would rather donate cash to.
That is my opinion of course. If you're interested in sponsoring me as a player or TL poster, please shoot me a message.
It is your right as a consumer to consider results a useful standard with which to judge donations, but judging others' taste in entertainment choices is rather juvenile, which is what the article ends up sounding like. I'm not the biggest fan of Root, but a ton of people enjoy supporting a homegrown team, full of interesting personalities, that has an interest in making sure the NA scene stays active. To suggest that these people are somehow wrong or hoodwinked by an evil Peruvian mastermind is to misunderstand the nature of commercial popularity in the first place.
It is also my right to judge others' entertainment choices though, juvenile or not. If you listen to Generic Pop Star #34 or love Michael Bay 'splosions, I'm going to judge you.
I harbor no ill will towards ROOT. Just giving my .02.
Absolutely, this is why any article that seeks to criticize "taste" in Sc2 donation support ought to focus on the community and the people making the decision to donate as opposed to the teams. These are not mega-media conglomerates with the resources available to shape taste and barrage markets with subversive advertising, these are poor nerds who aren't Korean who want to figure out a way to sustain themselves as they put forward Starcraft 2 content/performances.
On May 02 2013 04:30 namste wrote: After reading the article, I think he has a point with whole beggar thing and how no other business in the world could do the same thing. Sure the article is written in a very controversial and even a mean way, but he does have a point.
Yeah, no other business except every other project on Kickstarter...
Even the money for the stand of the statue of liberty is raised this way. Crowd funding is a true American value.
On May 02 2013 04:39 areyouserious wrote: This is so fucking disgusting it makes me want to vomit.
These losers have raised $35k! They are running around acting like a charity case when in reality they are just immature/irresonsible kids who want free money to live out their "dream".
Where the fuck will this money go? They didn't provide ANY breakdown of costs but the estimate is $75k. The extra $ goes to who? Catz wallet?
Oh boy, the "e-sports community" is one of the dumbest fucking communities in existence. Better teams have tried to find sustainable ways to carry on their business, but ROOT is taking a nice shortcut to success. What happens when the $75k runs out? What is their SUSTAINABLE plan? Ask idiots (I'm sorry but that's exactly what they are) for more money?
This kind of shit should not be allowed by law, as far as I see it these kids are simply committing fraud.
Maybe Catz will just buy himself a nice car? Who the fuck knows, surely the people who are giving away their money don't.
The sad part is, ROOT players are absolute shit tier. A team house will NOT help them get better, they all have been playing this game for way too long to all of a sudden get THAT much better at this game.
FUCKING PATHETIC.
No, the lottery is stupid. This? This is simply giving money to something you care about. Nothing wrong with it, and I love the crowd-sourcing idea. When there is an indie game developer who is talented and has a great vision, I'd be more than HAPPY to give money to them for them to make their vision a reality. Even if I don't get anything in return, I'm still happy to help them. I'm only upset when they don't use the money the way they said they would.
I'm posting this with the assumption you are not a troll. You likely are ^_^.
On May 02 2013 04:12 synd wrote: He has a point but no one from community will ever try to think about it since CatZ is so much liked by the community.
People shouldn't be allowed to abuse the community so much. It's the same as nowdays' Kickstarter trend to ask people for money to make a game that you have to buy afterwards. Totally wtf
Every kickstarter I have seen if you pay a certain amount in donations you get the game included + early beta access. It's pretty much an extremely early pre-order if you pay that much. Now if you only donate 5-10$ then yeah you'll have to buy the game. But yeah no you don't donate to a kickstarter and then get nothing in return and if you donate that much money you are getting the game with it.
No, it's not remotely like an extremely early pre-order. Pay attention, close attention, to the Kickstarter terms. You are giving them money. They are under zero obligation to give you anything, and several projects have already failed to deliver. The bonuses and rewards mean that if they are able to make a project, you may get something. I have yet to see anyone outright scam via a Kickstarter, partially because Kickstarter is pretty tough on anyone they think might be attempting that.
Your viewpoint is, at the very least legally, erroneous. If you are kickstarting, contributing to crowd funding, don't expect anything. I dumped over $300 into the Collegiate Starleague - because I support what they do. I got a t-shirt out of it. That was nice, but not something I expected. If I give money to a kickstarter or chip-in or indiegogo, it's because I believe that what they are making/doing deserves to be made/done and the people behind it have the wherewithal and enough business sense to get it done. Giving money (and it is giving - don't expect anything if a project fails horribly) in this way isn't even an investment.
All of that said, if people believe in Root, and want Root to have a damn house, Root will get a damn house. They aren't solely relying on crowdfunding, if Catz has the intelligence/business sense he has shown before. What's your "perk"? Better training environment for Root players, easier access to NA tournaments and events, and better games.
The fact that Lewis tears into Catz for this while neglecting, I don't know, PRIME (who did a similar fundraiser for a house even though they have sponsors and other revenue streams + Show Spoiler +
damn I want a hoodie - but shipping from KR is killer
suggests that my decision to pretty much ignore things from Cadred, except for what I see on TL, isn't a bad one. This guy can make Slasher look like a paragon of main stream journalism on par with Bob Woodward.
On May 02 2013 04:39 areyouserious wrote: This is so fucking disgusting it makes me want to vomit.
These losers have raised $35k! They are running around acting like a charity case when in reality they are just immature/irresonsible kids who want free money to live out their "dream".
Where the fuck will this money go? They didn't provide ANY breakdown of costs but the estimate is $75k. The extra $ goes to who? Catz wallet?
Oh boy, the "e-sports community" is one of the dumbest fucking communities in existence. Better teams have tried to find sustainable ways to carry on their business, but ROOT is taking a nice shortcut to success. What happens when the $75k runs out? What is their SUSTAINABLE plan? Ask idiots (I'm sorry but that's exactly what they are) for more money?
This kind of shit should not be allowed by law, as far as I see it these kids are simply committing fraud.
Maybe Catz will just buy himself a nice car? Who the fuck knows, surely the people who are giving away their money don't.
The sad part is, ROOT players are absolute shit tier. A team house will NOT help them get better, they all have been playing this game for way too long to all of a sudden get THAT much better at this game.
FUCKING PATHETIC.
No, the lottery is stupid. This? This is simply giving money to something you care about. Nothing wrong with it, and I love the crowd-sourcing idea. When there is an indie game developer who is talented and has a great vision, I'd be more than HAPPY to give money to them for them to make their vision a reality. Even if I don't get anything in return, I'm still happy to help them. I'm only upset when they don't use the money the way they said they would.
I'm posting this with the assumption you are not a troll. You likely are ^_^.
On May 02 2013 04:30 namste wrote: After reading the article, I think he has a point with whole beggar thing and how no other business in the world could do the same thing. Sure the article is written in a very controversial and even a mean way, but he does have a point.
Yeah, no other business except every other project on Kickstarter...
Even the money for the stand of the statue of liberty is raised this way. Crowd funding is a true American value.
I don't wish to go too far off topic, but source please? My understanding that the statue of liberty was a gift from France to the USA. The bit about it's stand is the first I've ever heard.
But to add to the topic, the only thing of Cadred I've followed were his interviews at events, which I thought were excellent. This article however, is a very shallow way of looking at the topic. The consumer is the one that pays for everything. Either they buy things from sponsors, or buy products or they invest. Not every team can ask for 25k for a game house and have enough community behind them to create that. If the consumer wants to give their money to something they like and support, it's their choice.
On May 02 2013 04:30 namste wrote: After reading the article, I think he has a point with whole beggar thing and how no other business in the world could do the same thing. Sure the article is written in a very controversial and even a mean way, but he does have a point.
Yeah, no other business except every other project on Kickstarter...
Even the money for the stand of the statue of liberty is raised this way. Crowd funding is a true American value.
I don't wish to go too far off topic, but source please? My understanding that the statue of liberty was a gift from France to the USA. The bit about it's stand is the first I've ever heard.
Here, BBC news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21932675 The funds didn't solely came from crowd funding, but the original funds ended up a "tad" short due to escalating costs, so they put ads on newspaper to ask for donations.
tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
On May 02 2013 04:39 areyouserious wrote: This is so fucking disgusting it makes me want to vomit.
These losers have raised $35k! They are running around acting like a charity case when in reality they are just immature/irresonsible kids who want free money to live out their "dream".
Where the fuck will this money go? They didn't provide ANY breakdown of costs but the estimate is $75k. The extra $ goes to who? Catz wallet?
Oh boy, the "e-sports community" is one of the dumbest fucking communities in existence. Better teams have tried to find sustainable ways to carry on their business, but ROOT is taking a nice shortcut to success. What happens when the $75k runs out? What is their SUSTAINABLE plan? Ask idiots (I'm sorry but that's exactly what they are) for more money?
This kind of shit should not be allowed by law, as far as I see it these kids are simply committing fraud.
Maybe Catz will just buy himself a nice car? Who the fuck knows, surely the people who are giving away their money don't.
The sad part is, ROOT players are absolute shit tier. A team house will NOT help them get better, they all have been playing this game for way too long to all of a sudden get THAT much better at this game.
FUCKING PATHETIC.
No, the lottery is stupid. This? This is simply giving money to something you care about. Nothing wrong with it, and I love the crowd-sourcing idea. When there is an indie game developer who is talented and has a great vision, I'd be more than HAPPY to give money to them for them to make their vision a reality. Even if I don't get anything in return, I'm still happy to help them. I'm only upset when they don't use the money the way they said they would.
I'm posting this with the assumption you are not a troll. You likely are ^_^.
Aw B&... What does (PBU) mean?
previous banned user
Thank you, makes sense.
Anyway, something that may have been immoral use of crowd-sourcing is this kickstarter: 9 Year Old Kickstarter RPG Dealio The mother (the person who technically made the Kickstarter) had quite a background. Anyway, google around and you'll find the drama surrounding that whole deal. Who knows the truth about that one, but assuming Catz was really wealthy, yeah I'd probably be upset they were crowd-sourcing, but I highly doubt Catz makes more than the average American salary...
On May 02 2013 04:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Different opinions are a good thing.
Yeah they are good, but this is not a good article. He may have a point, but it is filled with misinformation and hate which should not even be in there. Overall a pretty poor piece of journalism if it should even be called that.
On May 02 2013 04:52 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Different opinions are a good thing.
While I completely agree on an intellectual level, I feel that journalism isn't supposed to be about catering to the opinions of certain demographics or attempts to stir up drama. That certainly is entertainment which many enjoy, but is not journalism. Journalism should be about reporting facts and educating. To be fair I haven't personally seen him claim to be a journalist, but that seems to be the impression he is trying to create.
Meh, he's letting his own personal feuds get in the way of being an unbiased journalist.
The topic is worth writing about and discussing, but this isn't really about that, it's about bashing ROOT because he doesn't like them after his altercations with their Smite team and Catz.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
They've (Cadred) have always been an afterthought since the GotFrag et al days. He is no different.
Richard Lewis is absolutely correct. This new "donation" - eSports business is godawful and makes it hard to take eSports seriously sometimes. Anyone that donated got swindled into investing into a house and a team that produces next to no income. Catz should be ashamed of himself.
It's not the idiot who asks, it's the... You know the saying. Kids these days have it easy. In my times you paid your own flights / hotels etc when you went to compete in events. Winning a counter-strike tournament in France paid like ~2-3 times the expences, so you'd better play well. These days people just flood you with money you just simply have to ask.
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
On May 02 2013 05:00 Zeevo wrote: Richard Lewis is absolutely correct. This new "donation" - eSports business is godawful and makes it hard to take eSports seriously sometimes. Anyone that donated got swindled into investing into a house and a team that produces next to no income. Catz should be ashamed of himself.
Random question - do you feel this way when "donating" the $5 more for a hot dog while at a sporting event? How about Packers fans buying "stock" in that venerable franchise? How about this twitter campaign by Manchester United fans? (For that matter, anyone supporting the Cubs in anyway.)
Fans want to support teams they want to support. This is NOT an "eSports" thing. This is a fan thing. Stop trying to sound the "hurting eSports" bell.
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
So, to summarize your post - there is no such thing as professional video game players. Because it's not a "real job". Can you elaborate on that? Because I sure as hell would think destroying your eyesight by spending 12 hours staring at a screen while coordinating actions strenuously enough to cause wrist strain could be considered a "real job". (Well, except that I am required by law to have multiple breaks, not work more than 40 hours a week before being compensated at a higher rate and with a cap on how many hours I can work in total. And what I do is not even as strenuous as professional level gaming.)
I feel like an article that would have received a warning on TL had it been published on the forums as just another post will never be worth reading.
This guy attacking ROOT's efforts is so childish, what exactly has he done that gives him the right to belittle the efforts of others (both ROOT the organization and the fans who contributed)? Personally, as someone who contributed as much as I could reasonably afford to ROOT's fundraiser, I only have a hearty "Fuck you" to give to Dick. I agree with TB also, too much nerd baiting and controversy-mongering to even waste time on.
ROOT4ROOT.
I hope CatZ and the rest of the Root guys can just shrug this off like the immature and silly raving it is. There's still plenty of us here that believe in you guys.
On May 02 2013 05:00 Zeevo wrote: Richard Lewis is absolutely correct. This new "donation" - eSports business is godawful and makes it hard to take eSports seriously sometimes. Anyone that donated got swindled into investing into a house and a team that produces next to no income. Catz should be ashamed of himself.
Random question - do you feel this way when "donating" the $5 more for a hot dog while at a sporting event? How about Packers fans buying "stock" in that venerable franchise? How about this twitter campaign by Manchester United fans? (For that matter, anyone supporting the Cubs in anyway.)
Fans want to support teams they want to support. This is NOT an "eSports" thing. This is a fan thing. Stop trying to sound the "hurting eSports" bell.
I will echo this. There are other, more "legit", things that work on donations. I see this message on Wikipedia all the time, and let's not go into organizations such as Red Cross. I see no problems with donation. If that's what people want to do, they can go ahead. I won't since I don't care about Root (unlike say Wikipedia).
Richard Lewis is the same guy that had some pretty damn negative opinions about Day9. Frankfully, I think he's just a guy that loves to have extreme opinions, that will always border on the negative cause of the attention they generate.
It’s absolute e-sports career suicide to come out and say anything bad about him. He has become the ambassador for SC2, has become a bankable broadcaster and has made himself a tidy sum of money because he was in the right place, in the right time, doing the right thing. Now I’ve only met him once and on that occasion he put his hand in my face and told me he wouldn’t talk to me. I’m not a fan, I don’t drool over what he does, I think if he did it in any other industry other than e-sports he’d be deemed fairly average. I wasn’t trying to get an autograph. It was a hello from one member of the press to the other. This qualifies as the single rudest person I've met in e-sports... I mean, talk to the hand? What the fuck?
Now, when I go to events I’m approached just the same by all sorts of people. People who want to be unbanned, people who want my opinion about their shitty little mix team, fellow writers who want me to have a look at their stuff, gamers who have heard rumours about me, people who want to tell me to my face why I’m wrong and people who are threatening to hit me. Even with that last option I’ll talk civilly and I’d be astounded, genuinely, if you could find many people out there who could say I’ve been rude to them. Even people I have cross words with usually end up on a night out with me as way of an apology. E-sports is a small, small place. There’s no status and no celebrity. We’re just guys.
Many people approached me after that rudeness to make apologies for him. Then I asked around and found out it wasn’t an isolated incident, that at events where he’d worked he’d been behaving like a prima donna, that he’d been extremely rude to people who were paying him to work for them. No-one wants to believe it because of how he comes across in his little Youtube videos but it’s obvious based on what I’ve heard that he’s a phony, as fake as those crocodile tears he likes to sporadically burst into whenever he feels he needs to prove just what a nice caring guy he is.
I doubt he’ll lose any sleep about anyone criticising him because he’s in an unassailable position. Still, I can’t abide people who think they’re some kind of rock star because they are a big deal in e-sports. Frankly, it’s embarrassing.
I like Richard Lewis and he does good interviews with the UK players especially, but this is rather biased even accepting the generally acerbic nature of his previous articles I've seen. He's capable of better, but sadly I think he's caught on to the sad truth that being controversial and writing polemics gets more exposure, views and ultimately moolah than more measured approaches.
I agree with him on Day incidentally. Not perhaps that he's a dick or whatever, but that he's a sacred cow who can do no wrong and is insulated from criticism by and large, he's stagnated imo as a result.
That people bring up 'he's also the guy who has negative opinions about Day9' kind of reinforces my view onthat.
I don't understand how this is even an issue. All sorts of organizations do donation drives like this. PBS, schools, churches, small local sports teams, etc. Seems like he's calling them out simply because they can use their mediums of choice to get the point across to more people, so it's more effective, and obviously if it's more effective it's hurting the scene, or something?
Those of you saying anything about the root level of skill not only seem to be forgetting about their koreans, but also don't seem to recognize the talent CatZ and those who have worked closely with him have fostered. He's the Tommy Mattola of the NA SC2 scene. Players like Vibe, Leiya, Kane, etc. all have huge potential and will go far given the chance. They wouldn't have been picked up by the EG's or Liquids of the community (I guess it's possible, but unlikely) and now they have outspoken management ready and willing to back them up with passion and desire to see them get where they need to be.
I'm all for differing opinions but this left a pretty foul taste in my mouth.
On May 02 2013 05:12 Wombat_NI wrote: I agree with him on Day incidentally. Not perhaps that he's a dick or whatever, but that he's a sacred cow who can do no wrong and is insulated from criticism by and large, he's stagnated imo as a result.
That people bring up 'he's also the guy who has negative opinions about Day9' kind of reinforces my view onthat.
I do agree on this point, as well. I don't have some huge grudge against him like he (evidently) does. Hell, I've probably watched about 50 live Day9 Dailies.
But his comments on the ROOT gaming house donation deal is a bit absurd. If I am a wealth individual who was blessed with great fortune at an early age, is it wrong to give money to something I care about? What if I gave it do a global health related charity? Am I being "swindled" there?? Hell, like someone else mentioned... Churches have been doing this shit for CENTURIES. He should be writing articles about Churches, not some ROOT gaming house. They spend the money in far more immoral ways. Promise.
The comparison of streamers to "camwhores" was frighteningly apt.
--
I mostly agree with Richard Lewis. Everyone who donated to Root, donated to an organization who tried to create a teamhouse before and failed. They donated to an organization which is a revolving door for players; they stop by so they're not "teamless," then leave when any other team offers them *anything.* They donated to an organization which closed up shop so that Catz and Drewbie could play on Col.
Essentially, they donated in the hopes of growing ESPORTS and ROOT when there is every indication that Catz will fail. For Pete's sake! Their new sponsor makes gamer business cards! The owners of Gunnar glasses are probably saying "damn that's useless..."
So I agree with RL. But some part of me is still hoping Catz can pull it off. A year or so ago Desrow went to Korea. There was talk of him becoming a top foreigner, making it to the GSL, you know, crazy pipe dreams. I knew who wouldn't make it. He wasn't a hard worker who ground 50 games a day. He didn't have any hand speed. Just didn't have any of the tools. But I wished him GLHF and truly hoped he'd make it. Same for Root.
Not really a fan of authors who assume that fans that are donating money aren't aware of what they are doing or that it is a risk involved. But I guess calling a group of people naive is a good way to get a lot of page views and attention.
On May 02 2013 05:00 Zeevo wrote: Richard Lewis is absolutely correct. This new "donation" - eSports business is godawful and makes it hard to take eSports seriously sometimes. Anyone that donated got swindled into investing into a house and a team that produces next to no income. Catz should be ashamed of himself.
Random question - do you feel this way when "donating" the $5 more for a hot dog while at a sporting event? How about Packers fans buying "stock" in that venerable franchise? How about this twitter campaign by Manchester United fans? (For that matter, anyone supporting the Cubs in anyway.)
Fans want to support teams they want to support. This is NOT an "eSports" thing. This is a fan thing. Stop trying to sound the "hurting eSports" bell.
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
So, to summarize your post - there is no such thing as professional video game players. Because it's not a "real job". Can you elaborate on that? Because I sure as hell would think destroying your eyesight by spending 12 hours staring at a screen while coordinating actions strenuously enough to cause wrist strain could be considered a "real job". (Well, except that I am required by law to have multiple breaks, not work more than 40 hours a week before being compensated at a higher rate and with a cap on how many hours I can work in total. And what I do is not even as strenuous as professional level gaming.)
not at all what I said.
I said people who depend on donations, are obviously not actually making a career of "being a pro-gamer" as much as a homeless guy makes a career out of holding a sign on the side of the road.
this is the equivalent of hanging out at a major league baseball park in a uniform, begging for money and then saying "im a pro baseball player" because he also plays baseball on his free time.
There are people who are making actual careers, (and some pretty damn good ones) being pro gamers. But there are a LOT more people, who just spend all day every day playing video games but claim the title "Im a progamer" to avoid the reality that is "im a lazy piece of shit who doesn't want to join the workforce"
Screw Richard lewis. He thinks himself so important that if he ever perceives that you slighted him, he takes the woe is me approach of how dare you slight me and then writes an insulting article about you to get back at you. His day9 piece was one the most pathetic pieces of trash ever written.
Catz is well within his right to ask for donations because no one is forced to donate. I only have one issue with the root house. Catz is planning to put it in SF, which is one of the most expensive cities to live in, so I don't think that's the wisest use of donation money as it won't last that long staying in sf compared to other places in cali.
On May 02 2013 05:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Whatever. ROOT is the Green Bay Packers, owned and funded by the public. Suck on that, Richard Lewis.
Owned by Catz :o
Is Catz not of the people?
Tax payer dollars often fund new stadiums or stadium renovations for major teams.
In the case of the packers...
"Another stock sale occurred late in 1997 and early in 1998. It added 105,989 new shareholders and raised over $24 million, money used for the Lambeau Field redevelopment project. Priced at $200 per share, fans bought 120,010 shares during the 17-week sale, which ended March 16, 1998. "
These fucking beggars of a NFL team, fucking asking for money to do some renovations. How dare they.
On May 02 2013 05:30 Canucklehead wrote: Screw Richard lewis. He thinks himself so important that if he ever perceives that you slighted him, he takes the woe is me approach of how dare you slight me and then writes an insulting article about you to get back at you. His day9 piece was one the most pathetic pieces of trash ever written.
Catz is well within his right to ask for donations because no one is forced to donate. I only have one issue with the root house. Catz is planning to put it in SF, which is one of the most expensive cities to live in, so I don't think that's the wisest use of donation money as it won't last that long staying in sf compared to other places in cali.
agreed with this.
they could literally cut their costs in HALF, and they could buy a damn Van with part of their savings, if they would plan a bit smarter, and think "cost efficiency". For instance, moving outside of SF, to a more modest/urban neighborhood. Ya living in the burbs may not be as "fun and edgy" as living in SF, but its also 1/2 the price.
this is one of the falls of being handed money in donations tho... you are not as...creative when it comes to spending.
35,000 which they have already reached... could easily cover a year+ for a team house, if they were smart with their money.
I don't know how 75,000 was reached, but I guess if everyone wants their own room/top $$ computer/all expenses paid -food, travel, bills, literally every dollar each of them makes should be pure profit for at LEAST.. a year.
I see the truth in what he writes and I'm not too fond of ROOT's campaign in the first place, but bringing up Destiny reeks of attention-whoring, borderline trolling :D
On May 02 2013 05:00 Zeevo wrote: Richard Lewis is absolutely correct. This new "donation" - eSports business is godawful and makes it hard to take eSports seriously sometimes. Anyone that donated got swindled into investing into a house and a team that produces next to no income. Catz should be ashamed of himself.
Random question - do you feel this way when "donating" the $5 more for a hot dog while at a sporting event? How about Packers fans buying "stock" in that venerable franchise? How about this twitter campaign by Manchester United fans? (For that matter, anyone supporting the Cubs in anyway.)
Fans want to support teams they want to support. This is NOT an "eSports" thing. This is a fan thing. Stop trying to sound the "hurting eSports" bell.
On May 02 2013 05:03 MaestroSC wrote:
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
So, to summarize your post - there is no such thing as professional video game players. Because it's not a "real job". Can you elaborate on that? Because I sure as hell would think destroying your eyesight by spending 12 hours staring at a screen while coordinating actions strenuously enough to cause wrist strain could be considered a "real job". (Well, except that I am required by law to have multiple breaks, not work more than 40 hours a week before being compensated at a higher rate and with a cap on how many hours I can work in total. And what I do is not even as strenuous as professional level gaming.)
not at all what I said.
I said people who depend on donations, are obviously not actually making a career of "being a pro-gamer" as much as a homeless guy makes a career out of holding a sign on the side of the road.
this is the equivalent of hanging out at a major league baseball park in a uniform, begging for money and then saying "im a pro baseball player" because he also plays baseball on his free time.
There are people who are making actual careers, (and some pretty damn good ones) being pro gamers. But there are a LOT more people, who just spend all day every day playing video games but claim the title "Im a progamer" to avoid the reality that is "im a lazy piece of shit who doesn't want to join the workforce"
Oh come on that's a little harsh. The job "professional gamer" is not developed at all yet. It's still growing (and pretty quickly too!). If everyone had your mindset, nothing new would ever emerge or grow. They are not "lazy [pieces] of shit", they are trying to make it in a job that is very competitive and not fully established yet. They are pioneers.
I kind of think of it like a more intimate version of Shark Tank without a direct monetary return on the investment. Investors (fans of progaming) help a company that does not have the capital to succeed (pro gamers) so that in the future they can return their investment several times over (pro gaming can become an established career, others can enter the profession more easily, you can be entertained more, or, simply, you get good feels from donating to your favorite team).
On May 02 2013 05:19 aike wrote: Professional sports teams go to the public all the time for help in expanding or building new stadiums. How is this any different?
I think the distinction that is to be made is that for mainstream professional clubs the fans get something in exchange. For example, the Edmonton Oilers, a professional NHL team, was in danger of going under a few decades ago, and there was a big community effort to keep the team afloat. This was done by the community buying up season tickets and other merchandise. In short, the people who "donated" got something tangible in return. I think the main problem people have with the Root house is that it seems more like a "charity" kind of donation. I think if you donated a certain amount you got some special benefits like the chance to join the official Root chat channels, jerseys, etc, but that doesn't really compare to something like a season ticket. And yes, I know that as an eSports team something like a season ticket really has no equivalent, and I know Root can't offer something similar to it. But the point is it makes Root seem more like a charity case and less of a "legitimate" club.
Edit: also, the jerseys I believe were only available to the top donors, unlike a season ticket which was available to anyone who "donated" for one.
On May 02 2013 05:19 aike wrote: Professional sports teams go to the public all the time for help in expanding or building new stadiums. How is this any different?
I think the distinction that is to be made is that for mainstream professional clubs the fans get something in exchange. For example, the Edmonton Oilers, a professional NHL team, was in danger of going under a few decades ago, and there was a big community effort to keep the team afloat. This was done by the community buying up season tickets and other merchandise. In short, the people who "donated" got something tangible in return. I think the main problem people have with the Root house is that it seems more like a "charity" kind of donation. I think if you donated a certain amount you got some special benefits like the chance to join the official Root chat channels, jerseys, etc, but that doesn't really compare to something like a season ticket. And yes, I know that as an eSports team something like a season ticket really has no equivalent, and I know Root can't offer something similar to it. But the point is it makes Root seem more like a charity case and less of a "legitimate" club.
Edit: also, the jerseys I believe were only available to the top donors, unlike a season ticket which was available to anyone who "donated" for one.
When it comes to building a new stadium, the teams ask the public for help in one way or the other, either by directly asking for money or through having the people vote on a tax increase to build the stadium. In the case of like the packers, they will sell some shares for a certain price to raise money. This isn't like a normal share in a company, as the share itself doesn't really hold value. So basically you donate $250 per share and all you get is a certificate saying you are a shareholder
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
"a real job"
Mind stepping down off your pedestal so we can talk for a minute?
No one is forcing you to give away anything. Not comfortable with it? Cool, don't.
I'm just curious how you expect a majority of the players to survive, without community support.
Would you like them all to be living in a basement while asking mommy and daddy for allowance every month so they can buy ramen noodles every night.
Do you think 95% of the players can "make it" on their own?
If people didn't want to donate, they wouldn't have. If they enjoy the stream, and want to make sure it stays around, they donate 5 or 10 dollars, or sub, or buy a lesson or whatever. They spend their time watching the stream, or like the player or whatever, and want to support them.
As far as the article goes I can see the point he is making, but it's pretty clear he has quite a bit of hatred. He hasn't liked root for a long time now. He posts stuff like this trying to make them go viral so he can get over 20 views.
On May 02 2013 05:19 aike wrote: Professional sports teams go to the public all the time for help in expanding or building new stadiums. How is this any different?
I think the distinction that is to be made is that for mainstream professional clubs the fans get something in exchange. For example, the Edmonton Oilers, a professional NHL team, was in danger of going under a few decades ago, and there was a big community effort to keep the team afloat. This was done by the community buying up season tickets and other merchandise. In short, the people who "donated" got something tangible in return. I think the main problem people have with the Root house is that it seems more like a "charity" kind of donation. I think if you donated a certain amount you got some special benefits like the chance to join the official Root chat channels, jerseys, etc, but that doesn't really compare to something like a season ticket. And yes, I know that as an eSports team something like a season ticket really has no equivalent, and I know Root can't offer something similar to it. But the point is it makes Root seem more like a charity case and less of a "legitimate" club.
Edit: also, the jerseys I believe were only available to the top donors, unlike a season ticket which was available to anyone who "donated" for one.
When it comes to building a new stadium, the teams ask the public for help in one way or the other, either by directly asking for money or through having the people vote on a tax increase to build the stadium. In the case of like the packers, they will sell some shares for a certain price to raise money. This isn't like a normal share in a company, as the share itself doesn't really hold value. So basically you donate $250 per share and all you get is a certificate saying you are a shareholder
I've never liked the no strings attached money. Instead of "donations" this should've been more investment driven so people who believed in Root buy shares of Root. If they never bother cashing in their shares because they wanted it to be a true donation then that is their prerogative. Then there is a little more incentive in doing the right thing with the money since you actually have to grow it. People that get free money tend to blow it on unnecessary things since, "hey! it's just free money anyways". Which plenty of people have pointed out, moving to SF isn't exactly the best way to make cost effective use of the money.
I'm not even going to get into the fact that Root has sponsors who should be providing something like this if it's in the best interest of the team/company to grow it. The fact that they didn't step up and they had to start asking fans for money doesn't really give me confidence. We'll see how it works out.
On May 02 2013 04:50 baldgye wrote: tbh I didn't really like the concept of it, which is why I didn't donate. But to call it out is a little much, if people want to help support Root (or any thing else) with there own money, why is that a problem?
this,
I bought a shirt. But I got my shirt in return for my money which is a very fair trade, and I can still support a team I like.
I am just not comfortable with giving away my hard earned money...that I get from working my 40+ hour a week desk job, so people who play video games all day every day, can get a new house and continue playing video games all day/every day.
I thought the author of the article came off as a huge cunt, because he wants to be "edgy" and "go viral" but he did make a solid point, that Root was begging for money, which is exactly what "asking for donations" is.
I cringe every time a player asks for donations, or links their Paypal, or begs for money.
If you aren't making it, maybe its time you went and got a real job like the rest of us.
Who among every single person on TL/Reddit WOULDNT want to make a living hanging out playing video games...
at least MOST of the pro's are decent enough to disguise their donations as "lessons"
"a real job"
Mind stepping down off your pedestal so we can talk for a minute?
No one is forcing you to give away anything. Not comfortable with it? Cool, don't.
I'm just curious how you expect a majority of the players to survive, without community support.
Would you like them all to be living in a basement while asking mommy and daddy for allowance every month so they can buy ramen noodles every night.
Do you think 95% of the players can "make it" on their own?
If people didn't want to donate, they wouldn't have. If they enjoy the stream, and want to make sure it stays around, they donate 5 or 10 dollars, or sub, or buy a lesson or whatever. They spend their time watching the stream, or like the player or whatever, and want to support them.
As far as the article goes I can see the point he is making, but it's pretty clear he has quite a bit of hatred. He hasn't liked root for a long time now. He posts stuff like this trying to make them go viral so he can get over 20 views.
again,
not saying nobody should donate. Just said I wasn't comfortable with giving away my money for this.
And esports is just like every other sport, those who deserve to make it, will make it.
Nobody is handing washed up baseball players who never made it out of the minor leagues money so they can still call themselves "professional baseball players"
my friend (really an acquaintance) has been chasing his dream for the past 7 years, he just got cut from his minor league team this year. He was a professional baseball player up til this point.
But now, society and his competition have deemed him unnecessary and unworthy of being paid to play baseball professionally for any longer.
While not every single person who calls himself a "pro gamer" is actually worthy of being one, and that's why they are not "making it" as one. They are "living off their parents, in the basement" just like you put it.
This is how competitive job markets work, some people will make it, others wont. I want to be a professional gamer, but I am shit in comparison to professional SC2 players (im master level.../cheer for me I know... *sarcasm*) But because its such a competitive scene, I CANNOT scrape a living and make enough money, being a "professional SC2 gamer" so I accept that I am not a pro-gamer and I move on.
Right now there are countless amount of people who consider themselves "pro-gamers" who simply aren't. And they are the same ones begging for donations on stream.
Im just a believer in natural selection, both in nature, and in the workforce I guess.
The scene will support the players who deserve it (most often). If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't currently be ANY financially successful pro-gamers, but there ARE successful (successful enough that they can eat/sleep/play/support themselves) gamers, which proves that it IS plausible and possible.
Not saying any of this is the case for Root. I think Root is simply "jumpstarting" with their donations, and getting to a goal they would reach eventually if they wanted it badly enough.
Again, if people want to donate to Root, go for it. I wont say that YOU shouldn't. Im just saying, its not how I choose to support. I bought a Root gaming t-shirt, because I like it and it benefitted both of us, and was much more logical way to support the team, for me personally.
I have a brother who washed out of Motocross, after a major crash which game him a condition that does not allow him to ride motorcycles competitively anymore, he doesn't beg for money so he can call himself a "pro motocross rider"
IDK
its just my opinion that the scene will always naturally support the ones who deserve it (most often, there are definitely Flukes *cough*(desrow)/circumstances which can stop potential players)
again, not saying that playing video games cant be a real career, just saying maybe a lot more people should realize its not a career for any/every one.
And I have actually been considering opening my own house to potential pro-gamers who are simply lacking "support" As my day job allows me to own my own 3 bedroom house in Southern california, and I am the only one living in it currently. potential project/idea for the future, is just a LOT of possibilities/hiccups id need to work out.
Ultimately this comes back to the issue of eSports not being developed enough yet to provide stable income for many of the people involved in the industry.
Do I think Root should have just gone out and gotten a low interest 30 year fixed mortgage loan for the house (easily doable with interest rates the way they are these days)? Absolutely! They probably could have covered the monthly mortgage cost by combining income from the live-in's. Of course, that may have requried a re-negotiation of contracts but hey! That's life.
From the sheer perspective that they were able to generate enough publicity and community donations and helps to achieve their goal without setting themselves up with long term debt as a result? That is truly efficient and the rewards were within reason, I do not understand how someone could be mad about that. If anything, it was a stroke of genius that secured their residence and place of employment for a year. Did I donate? Heck no, I'm too busy worrying about my own monthly payments. But I digress, now all they have to worry about are utilities, normal expenses, insurance, and the like. So even that little bit of extra money not having to deal with rent/mortgage for a month means 1 more Root player gets a chance to show up at tournaments and potentially make a good prize payout, increasing the reputation and solidifying the business model that much more. Potentially it is a move to guarantee additional monies from sponsors as a result.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
What people choose to do with their money is their decision. To be perfectly honest, the guys at ROOT have always worn their hearts on their sleeves and have never struck me as the kinds of people that just wanted to make a quick buck and exploit the community. I understand Richard Lewis doesn't like the practice, but his tone and approach are unprofessional and disrespectful. As TB said, he's doing this to get attention, not to expose legitimate harm being done. At least ROOT is honest about what it is they're trying to do.
Actually properly reading the article there are a lot more things in there that I agree on than I thought I would.
While it's unfair imo in the way it tears into Root specifically, he does make a load of pretty decent point. I agree with his 'lowest common denominator' barb about certain streamers, and that is the niche that is being ploughed. Ironically (point proven?) his own articles that are decent or his good interviews get a fraction of the views that his rants or what have you do.
Imo We need to get over this obsession with both established personalities and ESPECIALLY fucking 'drama' as a community and start supporting more of the following:
Journalists and writers who write good, informative and neutral stuff Supporting more players who are good and unheralded, rather than sticking to community favourites Give new casting talent more of an outlet
On May 02 2013 05:34 Demicore wrote: Never liked Lewis' articles but this is a new low.
Cause? People should do what ever they want with their money but Richard Lewis has a pretty good point here. I thought the fundraiser was pretty big joke, i mean a fundraiser to buy beds and house furniture etc? Now, thats a new low, just get a few hundred bucks and go to a freaking thrift store. They are all pro gamers, they should have a couple hundred dollars to buy that, otherwise please for the love of god, go do something else. Or do they need some fancy cow leather chairs or something? What im saying is, basically your gonna have to justify every purchase with a fundraiser like this.
Dont get me wrong, i like Catz and many of the ROOT players but if they cant sustain and improve their life with playing games then why should i as a consumer help? Their not even selling a product or offer anything.... All they did with the fundraiser was asking to people to help them and then, well lets hope we can do this cause otherwise we will gonna need another fundraiser. I couldn't find any information about how sustainable the plan would be, which i understand cause they probably dont know.
it's a good point but ROOT has done nothing to deserve being attacked specifically. look at any popular stream on twitch for any game, unless the streamer gets a salary from a big team like EG, they'll have a donation button.
why? because people like giving away money and begging for donations is easier than working part-time to pay rent.
Actually now that I think about it at least ROOT is saying what they'll do with the money, everyone else is just saying "support me."
Well, article contains some valid points that are worth talking about. Too bad he had to coat it in so much sensational crap that everybody quickly browsing over it will just toss it aside.
On May 02 2013 05:38 MaestroSC wrote:agreed with this.
they could literally cut their costs in HALF, and they could buy a damn Van with part of their savings, if they would plan a bit smarter, and think "cost efficiency". For instance, moving outside of SF, to a more modest/urban neighborhood. Ya living in the burbs may not be as "fun and edgy" as living in SF, but its also 1/2 the price.
this is one of the falls of being handed money in donations tho... you are not as...creative when it comes to spending.
35,000 which they have already reached... could easily cover a year+ for a team house, if they were smart with their money.
I don't know how 75,000 was reached, but I guess if everyone wants their own room/top $$ computer/all expenses paid -food, travel, bills, literally every dollar each of them makes should be pure profit for at LEAST.. a year.
We said "the Bay Area" or "somewhere near San Francisco but a lot cheaper" when asked where the house would be. We raised 30k, and it will be as transparent as I can make it once I have something official to announce. I think that also covers your other concerns with our "creative" spending.
There could have been a legitimate discussion until he attempted to further his "journalism career" by blasting ROOT like sAviOr was just caught throwing games and he was personally leading the pitchfork rally. This is a blast piece pure and simple. If you agree with him, don't donate. If you don't agree with him, donate. Whatever. This piece of "journalism" is the last thing e-sports needs, even more so than teams asking for community assistance.
Dont get me wrong, i like Catz and many of the ROOT players but if they cant sustain and improve their life with playing games then why should i as a consumer help?
This bugs me to no end. Heres the kicker, and I'm sure youll be shocked... YOU DIDN'T HELP AS A CONSUMER! Thats your choice! Disagree if you'd like, thats fine, but the amount of self-importance going on in this thread is ridiculous. This has zero effect on you or Richard Lewis or ANYONE for that matter.
On May 02 2013 05:38 MaestroSC wrote:agreed with this.
they could literally cut their costs in HALF, and they could buy a damn Van with part of their savings, if they would plan a bit smarter, and think "cost efficiency". For instance, moving outside of SF, to a more modest/urban neighborhood. Ya living in the burbs may not be as "fun and edgy" as living in SF, but its also 1/2 the price.
this is one of the falls of being handed money in donations tho... you are not as...creative when it comes to spending.
35,000 which they have already reached... could easily cover a year+ for a team house, if they were smart with their money.
I don't know how 75,000 was reached, but I guess if everyone wants their own room/top $$ computer/all expenses paid -food, travel, bills, literally every dollar each of them makes should be pure profit for at LEAST.. a year.
You know, you'd think we at ROOT would have thought of some of these things, but I guess not
Except that we said "the Bay Area" or "somewhere near San Francisco but a lot cheaper" when asked where the house would be. You seem to have this idea that we're buying a mansion in downtown San Francisco because we raised 35k (are you donating the extra 5k you made up by the way?) and that we're just going to throw money at everything.
Thanks at least for giving us a chance to be "creative when it comes to spending" before you pulled these facts out of nowhere.
But...he's from the internet! He must know everything!
Speaking of donations, wasn't there a player at Dreamhack who wore a shirt with the names of everyone who contributed to him being able to go? I recall the commentators praising the guy for making it and the generosity of his viewers. He wasn't alone.
On May 02 2013 05:38 MaestroSC wrote:agreed with this.
they could literally cut their costs in HALF, and they could buy a damn Van with part of their savings, if they would plan a bit smarter, and think "cost efficiency". For instance, moving outside of SF, to a more modest/urban neighborhood. Ya living in the burbs may not be as "fun and edgy" as living in SF, but its also 1/2 the price.
this is one of the falls of being handed money in donations tho... you are not as...creative when it comes to spending.
35,000 which they have already reached... could easily cover a year+ for a team house, if they were smart with their money.
I don't know how 75,000 was reached, but I guess if everyone wants their own room/top $$ computer/all expenses paid -food, travel, bills, literally every dollar each of them makes should be pure profit for at LEAST.. a year.
You know, you'd think we at ROOT would have thought of some of these things, but I guess not
Except that we said "the Bay Area" or "somewhere near San Francisco but a lot cheaper" when asked where the house would be. You seem to have this idea that we're buying a mansion in downtown San Francisco because we raised 35k (are you donating the extra 5k you made up by the way?) and that we're just going to throw money at everything.
Thanks at least for giving us a chance to be "creative when it comes to spending" before you pulled these facts out of nowhere.
But...he's from the internet! He must know everything!
or just simply saying "We have thought about it, and we are actually moving outside of SF" was such an incredibly hard response, that couldn't have been enough to point out the problem with what I wrote
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
i find myself in a position that agrees and disagrees.
I agree that its basically a charity case, I disagree though that anything is wrong with that. If people want to support a Root gaming house, great
Where i now turn to an idiot some would say because im going to be too harsh is that, Im not going to pretend like this Teamhouse is a good idea by what catz is trying to do, which is to support a team house off charity. What happens if the charity river runs dry and bills have to be paid?
We have no idea who/whom are going to be living in the team house, and what the team house is actually going to do for said players.. So far i have heard drewbie and Catz as confirmed people in the house. Im a bit skeptical as to what level they actually think they will train themselfs to because the opportunity was there for both of them when they were on complexity, Example drewbie went to korea to "so call train". Yet nothing came out of it and they even left complexity which had them in a position to get the best training possible.
Seems like a bunch of scapegoating and excuses, If they didnt go All out then, they wont go all out now. Sadly i just see this Root house as a knee jerk reaction to WCS and a want to be like EG. I dont see any real structure to this move.
On May 02 2013 07:24 Waxangel wrote: Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
It would be hypocrisy if Totalbiscuit knowingly partakes in polemic nerd-baiting while pointing the finger at Richard Lewis, whereas irony is more appropriate if TB is unaware of his own inflammatory posting nature as he indicts RL. Given the oftentimes knee-jerkish nature of TB's posting, I think it likely that he unknowingly stirs up a great deal of controversy, so I'm afraid irony is likely the most appropriate word here. Perhaps hypocritical irony?
soooo BTS running a campaign for their studio on Indiegogo is different somehow? Its called crowdsourcing. Its a new way of funding projects, or isn't he aware?
So a video games studio (A CORPORATE ENTITY) asks you to fund their projects cause no one else will. Yea you get a much more tangible benefit that you will one day receive said game. But its still them asking you for money.
BeyondTheSummit's new studio doesn't give us anymore than a root-gaming house will. It allows these organizations to produce more and hopefully better content in the realm of e-sports.
This guy is just a drama queen who needs to think a little bit before he speaks.
On May 02 2013 04:00 Benjamin99 wrote: Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for an professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
Yup, absolutely. People can do whatever the hell they want when it comes to their money, within the bounds of the law. If they want to give it to ROOT for a house, nobody gets to say that's "wrong". Crowd-funding is more and more commonplace these days. You can call it begging all you want, but as much as you want it to, it does not delegitimize the organization or the fundraising effort.
Yeah, I agree.
If Kickstarters work, and if people crowd fund game development with money, it's not different really.
This happens all the time (even outside of eSports) and for basically everything.
I feel like this is better than the usual <we need money for this indie game that has never before been seen by the gaming world !!!1111> stuff that has been happening a lot recently (disclaimer - I know some are acceptable, especially in the case of "lack of supply but a lot of demand" like demand for hack-n-slash ARPG but this has been increasingly more common recently). Edit - I'm sort of neutral and don't really play that many different games (I played like a total of only 7 different games over the course the last decade >.>).
Also, Catz is a very likeable guy IMO and reasonable too.
On May 02 2013 06:44 jalstar wrote: it's a good point but ROOT has done nothing to deserve being attacked specifically. look at any popular stream on twitch for any game, unless the streamer gets a salary from a big team like EG, they'll have a donation button.
why? because people like giving away money and begging for donations is easier than working part-time to pay rent.
Actually now that I think about it at least ROOT is saying what they'll do with the money, everyone else is just saying "support me."
I know the words "donation" and "support me" are used by a lot of streamers, but I think "tip jar" and "pay-what-you-want" are much better. Receiving money for streaming is the opposite of fundraising. The streamer is putting the content out there for free and people can decide for themselves what it's worth. The streamer is taking a risk putting time and effort and expense into creating content that might flop. Fundraising is for when there's no product until money is given. The donators are taking a risk giving money for something that may not be worth it. There's an absolutely essential difference there and I'd hate for these two opposite ways of paying for things to get conflated.
On May 02 2013 04:12 synd wrote: He has a point but no one from community will ever try to think about it since CatZ is so much liked by the community.
People shouldn't be allowed to abuse the community so much. It's the same as nowdays' Kickstarter trend to ask people for money to make a game that you have to buy afterwards. Totally wtf
nooo..... unless you are supporting some terrible company. By supporting the game. You GET the game when it is released. You are purchasing the game upon support.
Project eternity, the new PLanescape Torment, STar Citizen, Wasteland. If you supported the game. You get it upon release.
You need to do some research. Crowdsourcing is a legit way of funding projects. Not all the projects are good or worthwhile and some abuse it. but that is up to the consumer. In this case, Root was open, and SO was BeyondtheSummit, which many people aren't realizing also funded their new studio through crowdsourcing.
This also isn't abuse of the community. If it was, than the community would actually be angry, but no one was raging that BTS or ROOT were doing this, until this drama queen (who is still riding destiny's dick) is just trying to maintain his relevance by drooling bullshit onto his keyboard.
As an aside, I recall Catz discussing moving to the Bay Area to be nearer the likes of Blizzard, EG (iirc) and the likes.
I do think foreign teams need a bit more of a proper training house regimen, but there's not really the talent to justify doing it alone in most cases. Rosters simply aren't deep enough in the most case. You don't magically get good by playing in a Korean house, or going to Korea, it's because you're playing with a lot of high calibre players in a structured environment.
EG and TL have already shown (despite their occasional travails) that pooling resources and talent between teams shows better results than going it alone. While the Korean contingent may not be tearing Pro League up, they're showing really good form in individual leagues, and they have the requisite talent to do a lot of training in-house, hide builds etc.
Even then their rosters are not as deep as the Kespa teams, and that's the two top foreign-owned teams Korean rosters combined, so why would Root get a massive increase in results?
I don't mean to bash Root, and I assume they'll open it to select players outside of their team, but I just wish we saw a bit more cooperation of that level. Perhaps it's not viable for other reasons ofc.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
I feel like this situation should only turn dramatic if Catz made all these promises about what he was going to do with the money and then 3 months later it turns out he blew it on a bunch of Peruvian prostitutes and cocaine.
On May 02 2013 08:13 DamnCats wrote: I feel like this situation should only turn dramatic if Catz made all these promises about what he was going to do with the money and then 3 months later it turns out he blew it on a bunch of Peruvian prostitutes and cocaine.
On May 02 2013 04:00 Benjamin99 wrote: Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for an professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
Yup, absolutely. People can do whatever the hell they want when it comes to their money, within the bounds of the law. If they want to give it to ROOT for a house, nobody gets to say that's "wrong". Crowd-funding is more and more commonplace these days. You can call it begging all you want, but as much as you want it to, it does not delegitimize the organization or the fundraising effort.
TB is on point. Also, anyone else think of Richard Lewis from Curb Your Enthusiasm?
On May 02 2013 08:13 DamnCats wrote: I feel like this situation should only turn dramatic if Catz made all these promises about what he was going to do with the money and then 3 months later it turns out he blew it on a bunch of Peruvian prostitutes and cocaine.
CatZ if you're reading this:
Please don't do this.
Yeah, seriously, you need to go to Columbia for the best coke 'n hoes.
On May 02 2013 04:12 synd wrote: He has a point but no one from community will ever try to think about it since CatZ is so much liked by the community.
People shouldn't be allowed to abuse the community so much. It's the same as nowdays' Kickstarter trend to ask people for money to make a game that you have to buy afterwards. Totally wtf
If organizations asking for money amounts to abuse, than I think there are million better places to start pointing fingers.
I agree that it's a fair point to raise. More and more organizations or teams are relying on soliciting donations and hand-outs rather than actually developing a sustainable business model. Mooching off the goodwill of your fans is not a long-term solution. I mean, there used to be a time when entrepreneurship required the entrepreneur to actually figure out a way to generate revenue, raise serious capital, and assume some personal financial risk.
I think Root should look in the mirror, and ask themselves how seriously they're taking themselves and their business. If you couldn't get a $25,000 bank loan (which is peanuts) to take your business to the next level, it's probably a sign that you don't have a real plan for the future. A lot of start-ups trade services for revenue while they are raising capital. Instead of giving away a pack of old replays, why not offer coaching services for large or ongoing donations? Or unlimited access to replays or other learning tools?
But yeah, it's not fair to single out Root. People would take this Richard Lewis guy more seriously if he did some more research, broadened the scope of this topic and but some more thought into his article. He should really be criticizing or analyzing the business of esport team management as a whole.
On May 02 2013 08:47 RebelSlayer wrote: I thought it was about the basketball player Richard Lewis who used to be on the sonics.
I think you're thinking of Rashard Lewis, who was traded to the Magic and then the Wizards. Not to be confused with Richard Lewis, the Jewish comedian. Not to be confused with this Richard Lewis, whoever the hell he is.
Won't get into the ins and outs of discussing the points in the article. It's all fairly self-explanatory. You either agree or disagree. There's arguments on both sides.
People criticising the style of the article... The "Gonzorreah" column is the longest running column in e-sports. It's about six years old has been coming out weekly / bi-weekly in all that time. It has a specific tone that I know many in the SC2 community won't be used to but that tone is about being aggressive in its language and going after perceived wrongs within e-sports. It's been that way from the very first time it was published and I won't be changing it.
Is it representative of all my work? Absolutely not. People latch on to these types of pieces for a reason and the amount of people here who feel compelled to condemn it, seemingly without reading it, because it's "bad mannered" or "a vendetta against ROOT"... I can't manufacture them running a fund raiser to rent a gaming house, something a lot of people in the industry find distasteful. I imagine people would all be lauding the article if it was EG that had set up such a scheme.
Regardless, I believe good journalism is that which provokes debate and opinions. If people are having a discussion like this thread, I'll take the pitchforks that come with it because that#s what these articles are designed to do. It's not about page views, or hits. I tweet it out to people who follow me and encourage them to spread it if they think it has a point. The discussion is far more important within an e-sports context - I get paid the same if tens of thousands see it or dozens do.
Those saying I could have explored further are absolutely right. There are numerous other examples. I could have added another 1000 words on to it and then endured TL:DR posts because that would have pushed it over 3000 words but in the end the opinion that is central to the piece is ultimately more important than the specific examples.
Thanks to everyone for reading and as I said my column is a specific type of writing. I've done plenty of other factual pieces of writing that have required investigating, research and all the other stuff you're saying is lacking from this piece. That type of writing isn't really what a column is about and I hope people can understand that distinction.
On May 02 2013 05:24 -_- wrote: The comparison of streamers to "camwhores" was frighteningly apt.
--
I mostly agree with Richard Lewis. Everyone who donated to Root, donated to an organization who tried to create a teamhouse before and failed. They donated to an organization which is a revolving door for players; they stop by so they're not "teamless," then leave when any other team offers them *anything.* They donated to an organization which closed up shop so that Catz and Drewbie could play on Col.
Essentially, they donated in the hopes of growing ESPORTS and ROOT when there is every indication that Catz will fail. For Pete's sake! Their new sponsor makes gamer business cards! The owners of Gunnar glasses are probably saying "damn that's useless..."
So I agree with RL. But some part of me is still hoping Catz can pull it off. A year or so ago Desrow went to Korea. There was talk of him becoming a top foreigner, making it to the GSL, you know, crazy pipe dreams. I knew who wouldn't make it. He wasn't a hard worker who ground 50 games a day. He didn't have any hand speed. Just didn't have any of the tools. But I wished him GLHF and truly hoped he'd make it. Same for Root.
GlHf
you don't even know half the story. I wasn't good enough to accomplish anything in Korea in the first place but I did get better and I grew a lot as a person.
On May 02 2013 05:34 Demicore wrote: Never liked Lewis' articles but this is a new low.
Cause? People should do what ever they want with their money but Richard Lewis has a pretty good point here. I thought the fundraiser was pretty big joke, i mean a fundraiser to buy beds and house furniture etc? Now, thats a new low, just get a few hundred bucks and go to a freaking thrift store. They are all pro gamers, they should have a couple hundred dollars to buy that, otherwise please for the love of god, go do something else. Or do they need some fancy cow leather chairs or something? What im saying is, basically your gonna have to justify every purchase with a fundraiser like this.
Dont get me wrong, i like Catz and many of the ROOT players but if they cant sustain and improve their life with playing games then why should i as a consumer help? Their not even selling a product or offer anything.... All they did with the fundraiser was asking to people to help them and then, well lets hope we can do this cause otherwise we will gonna need another fundraiser. I couldn't find any information about how sustainable the plan would be, which i understand cause they probably dont know.
I didn't agree with the fundraiser either but it didn't deserve such a harsh article in response. I see it as pure vitriol aimed at attracting controversy; that's not what I expect from someone calling himself a journalist.
There is no ethical problem with Root asking for money. They could have held a "get Catz a car" charity and if the community deems it fit, then so be it. This is a non-story.
Those saying I could have explored further are absolutely right. There are numerous other examples. I could have added another 1000 words on to it and then endured TL:DR posts because that would have pushed it over 3000 words but in the end the opinion that is central to the piece is ultimately more important than the specific examples.
Thanks to everyone for reading and as I said my column is a specific type of writing. I've done plenty of other factual pieces of writing that have required investigating, research and all the other stuff you're saying is lacking from this piece. That type of writing isn't really what a column is about and I hope people can understand that distinction.
The topic is worth investigating and getting in-depth about. You should do a more serious feature article. Demoting it to a blog that you admit is designed to be more inflammatory/provocative than meaningful is kind of a waste.
On May 02 2013 08:51 Richard_Lewis wrote: Only just saw this here,
Won't get into the ins and outs of discussing the points in the article. It's all fairly self-explanatory. You either agree or disagree. There's arguments on both sides.
People criticising the style of the article... The "Gonzorreah" column is the longest running column in e-sports. It's about six years old has been coming out weekly / bi-weekly in all that time. It has a specific tone that I know many in the SC2 community won't be used to but that tone is about being aggressive in its language and going after perceived wrongs within e-sports. It's been that way from the very first time it was published and I won't be changing it.
Is it representative of all my work? Absolutely not. People latch on to these types of pieces for a reason and the amount of people here who feel compelled to condemn it, seemingly without reading it, because it's "bad mannered" or "a vendetta against ROOT"... I can't manufacture them running a fund raiser to rent a gaming house, something a lot of people in the industry find distasteful. I imagine people would all be lauding the article if it was EG that had set up such a scheme.
Regardless, I believe good journalism is that which provokes debate and opinions. If people are having a discussion like this thread, I'll take the pitchforks that come with it because that#s what these articles are designed to do. It's not about page views, or hits. I tweet it out to people who follow me and encourage them to spread it if they think it has a point. The discussion is far more important within an e-sports context - I get paid the same if tens of thousands see it or dozens do.
Those saying I could have explored further are absolutely right. There are numerous other examples. I could have added another 1000 words on to it and then endured TL:DR posts because that would have pushed it over 3000 words but in the end the opinion that is central to the piece is ultimately more important than the specific examples.
Thanks to everyone for reading and as I said my column is a specific type of writing. I've done plenty of other factual pieces of writing that have required investigating, research and all the other stuff you're saying is lacking from this piece. That type of writing isn't really what a column is about and I hope people can understand that distinction.
saying "I come off as an asshole, because I always come off as an asshole, when I write these columns" wont make anyone who is unhappy about the tone it was written in go "Oh so he is always an asshole, and its on purpose.... nvm then I love it"
but I understand that you want to clarify, that these columns are always written from the perspective of an asshole, but the rest of your work usually is not from that same perspective.
TLDR: I'm allowed to write articles/pieces in this column, from the perspective of an asshole, because its the longest running column in esports. Its been going on for 6 years now. But please do not let this lead you to the fact, that all of my pieces are written in this perspective.
How people think that what Catz and the rest of ROOT did should be even vaguely controversial makes my head hurt. Part of this community's permanent identity is its fundamentally grassroots nature. Rule number one of good business is that your business model must reflect the culture of its market in order to be successful. If the two are mismatched, it might take a while, but eventually it will always fail. Root uses what most would call an "alternative" business model, one that relies on outreach and community support in order to help build infrastructure that is good not only for its team but also for the health and development of the industry as a whole. They have clearly chosen correctly because not only does their business model obviously match up with the logic of their context but it has been, by anyone's standards, quite successful. They have made a very conscious (and apparently well thought out) decision to market themselves as a community based organization. Given the reasons why we're all ostensibly here, that seems something worthy of people's support and admiration. There are few people in this industry who truly understand both what good business is and the nature of the community and the guys at Root seem to have their heads on straight. Unfortunately, it seems as though the same cannot be said for Richard Lewis.
Also, Richard seems to have a penchant for mixing up questions of fact with questions of opinion as if there isn't actually a right or wrong answer. This case is NOT a question of opinion. Regardless of what your "opinion" is, either Root was correct, incorrect, or somewhere in between when they chose their business model and brand logic. We can (and should) argue about where they fall on that spectrum but we are then arguing about the truth not about people's 'preferences'.
Those saying I could have explored further are absolutely right. There are numerous other examples. I could have added another 1000 words on to it and then endured TL:DR posts because that would have pushed it over 3000 words but in the end the opinion that is central to the piece is ultimately more important than the specific examples.
Thanks to everyone for reading and as I said my column is a specific type of writing. I've done plenty of other factual pieces of writing that have required investigating, research and all the other stuff you're saying is lacking from this piece. That type of writing isn't really what a column is about and I hope people can understand that distinction.
The topic is worth investigating and getting in-depth about. You should do a more serious feature article. Demoting it to a blog that you admit is designed to be more inflammatory/provocative than meaningful is kind of a waste.
I produce a regular column, this was the topic I wanted to write about in that column. There's more than enough in there to spark the debate.
I'll happily go away and look individually at examples and, if there's a piece there, I'll write it in the fashion it deserves. This however is not designed to be that piece.
On May 02 2013 08:51 Richard_Lewis wrote: Only just saw this here,
Won't get into the ins and outs of discussing the points in the article. It's all fairly self-explanatory. You either agree or disagree. There's arguments on both sides.
People criticising the style of the article... The "Gonzorreah" column is the longest running column in e-sports. It's about six years old has been coming out weekly / bi-weekly in all that time. It has a specific tone that I know many in the SC2 community won't be used to but that tone is about being aggressive in its language and going after perceived wrongs within e-sports. It's been that way from the very first time it was published and I won't be changing it.
Is it representative of all my work? Absolutely not. People latch on to these types of pieces for a reason and the amount of people here who feel compelled to condemn it, seemingly without reading it, because it's "bad mannered" or "a vendetta against ROOT"... I can't manufacture them running a fund raiser to rent a gaming house, something a lot of people in the industry find distasteful. I imagine people would all be lauding the article if it was EG that had set up such a scheme.
Regardless, I believe good journalism is that which provokes debate and opinions. If people are having a discussion like this thread, I'll take the pitchforks that come with it because that#s what these articles are designed to do. It's not about page views, or hits. I tweet it out to people who follow me and encourage them to spread it if they think it has a point. The discussion is far more important within an e-sports context - I get paid the same if tens of thousands see it or dozens do.
Those saying I could have explored further are absolutely right. There are numerous other examples. I could have added another 1000 words on to it and then endured TL:DR posts because that would have pushed it over 3000 words but in the end the opinion that is central to the piece is ultimately more important than the specific examples.
Thanks to everyone for reading and as I said my column is a specific type of writing. I've done plenty of other factual pieces of writing that have required investigating, research and all the other stuff you're saying is lacking from this piece. That type of writing isn't really what a column is about and I hope people can understand that distinction.
saying "I come off as an asshole, because I always come off as an asshole, when I write these columns" wont make anyone who is unhappy about the tone it was written in go "Oh so he is always an asshole, and its on purpose.... nvm then I love it"
but I understand that you want to clarify, that these columns are always written from the perspective of an asshole, but the rest of your work usually is not from that same perspective.
TLDR: I'm allowed to write articles/pieces in this column, from the perspective of an asshole, because its the longest running column in esports. Its been going on for 6 years now. But please do not let this lead you to the fact, that all of my pieces are written in this perspective.
I guess I should be thankful at least I'm clarifying the tone of a column and not actually what a column is as I often have to do within the Counter-Strike community.
On May 02 2013 08:51 Richard_Lewis wrote: Only just saw this here,
Won't get into the ins and outs of discussing the points in the article. It's all fairly self-explanatory. You either agree or disagree. There's arguments on both sides.
People criticising the style of the article... The "Gonzorreah" column is the longest running column in e-sports. It's about six years old has been coming out weekly / bi-weekly in all that time. It has a specific tone that I know many in the SC2 community won't be used to but that tone is about being aggressive in its language and going after perceived wrongs within e-sports. It's been that way from the very first time it was published and I won't be changing it.
Is it representative of all my work? Absolutely not. People latch on to these types of pieces for a reason and the amount of people here who feel compelled to condemn it, seemingly without reading it, because it's "bad mannered" or "a vendetta against ROOT"... I can't manufacture them running a fund raiser to rent a gaming house, something a lot of people in the industry find distasteful. I imagine people would all be lauding the article if it was EG that had set up such a scheme.
Regardless, I believe good journalism is that which provokes debate and opinions. If people are having a discussion like this thread, I'll take the pitchforks that come with it because that#s what these articles are designed to do. It's not about page views, or hits. I tweet it out to people who follow me and encourage them to spread it if they think it has a point. The discussion is far more important within an e-sports context - I get paid the same if tens of thousands see it or dozens do.
Those saying I could have explored further are absolutely right. There are numerous other examples. I could have added another 1000 words on to it and then endured TL:DR posts because that would have pushed it over 3000 words but in the end the opinion that is central to the piece is ultimately more important than the specific examples.
Thanks to everyone for reading and as I said my column is a specific type of writing. I've done plenty of other factual pieces of writing that have required investigating, research and all the other stuff you're saying is lacking from this piece. That type of writing isn't really what a column is about and I hope people can understand that distinction.
saying "I come off as an asshole, because I always come off as an asshole, when I write these columns" wont make anyone who is unhappy about the tone it was written in go "Oh so he is always an asshole, and its on purpose.... nvm then I love it"
but I understand that you want to clarify, that these columns are always written from the perspective of an asshole, but the rest of your work usually is not from that same perspective.
TLDR: I'm allowed to write articles/pieces in this column, from the perspective of an asshole, because its the longest running column in esports. Its been going on for 6 years now. But please do not let this lead you to the fact, that all of my pieces are written in this perspective.
I guess I should be thankful at least I'm clarifying the tone of a column and not actually what a column is as I often have to do within the Counter-Strike community.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy.
I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
Kickstarter is based on the concept of crowd funding; fans bringing into existence the things that they want to support that are not (at least initially) supported by the market. If we want to see the Root house up and running then we have every right to support them. Asking people to invest in your idea is a great way to raise the money to bring it into existence. And our return on that investment is the enjoyment we will receive from watching their success in the future. It's the same reason I paid $100 for a season ticket to the GSL. I wanted to support the work of Artosis and Taseteless. I see no difference between that and supporting Root. Go for it Catz. Make it happen. Make us proud.
On May 02 2013 08:51 Richard_Lewis wrote: Only just saw this here,
Won't get into the ins and outs of discussing the points in the article. It's all fairly self-explanatory. You either agree or disagree. There's arguments on both sides.
People criticising the style of the article... The "Gonzorreah" column is the longest running column in e-sports. It's about six years old has been coming out weekly / bi-weekly in all that time. It has a specific tone that I know many in the SC2 community won't be used to but that tone is about being aggressive in its language and going after perceived wrongs within e-sports. It's been that way from the very first time it was published and I won't be changing it.
Is it representative of all my work? Absolutely not. People latch on to these types of pieces for a reason and the amount of people here who feel compelled to condemn it, seemingly without reading it, because it's "bad mannered" or "a vendetta against ROOT"... I can't manufacture them running a fund raiser to rent a gaming house, something a lot of people in the industry find distasteful. I imagine people would all be lauding the article if it was EG that had set up such a scheme.
Regardless, I believe good journalism is that which provokes debate and opinions. If people are having a discussion like this thread, I'll take the pitchforks that come with it because that#s what these articles are designed to do. It's not about page views, or hits. I tweet it out to people who follow me and encourage them to spread it if they think it has a point. The discussion is far more important within an e-sports context - I get paid the same if tens of thousands see it or dozens do.
Those saying I could have explored further are absolutely right. There are numerous other examples. I could have added another 1000 words on to it and then endured TL:DR posts because that would have pushed it over 3000 words but in the end the opinion that is central to the piece is ultimately more important than the specific examples.
Thanks to everyone for reading and as I said my column is a specific type of writing. I've done plenty of other factual pieces of writing that have required investigating, research and all the other stuff you're saying is lacking from this piece. That type of writing isn't really what a column is about and I hope people can understand that distinction.
saying "I come off as an asshole, because I always come off as an asshole, when I write these columns" wont make anyone who is unhappy about the tone it was written in go "Oh so he is always an asshole, and its on purpose.... nvm then I love it"
but I understand that you want to clarify, that these columns are always written from the perspective of an asshole, but the rest of your work usually is not from that same perspective.
TLDR: I'm allowed to write articles/pieces in this column, from the perspective of an asshole, because its the longest running column in esports. Its been going on for 6 years now. But please do not let this lead you to the fact, that all of my pieces are written in this perspective.
I guess I should be thankful at least I'm clarifying the tone of a column and not actually what a column is as I often have to do within the Counter-Strike community.
Wow, after reading this my first impression is something like "Richard Lewis seems like a terrible person". It's not my job to look up more works of him to judge if he is actually a good journalist, so why should I ever read something of him again after this. Makes me wonder if the drama is worth writing such a negative article. Anyways, some "facts" in the text are flatout wrong (e.g. Root doesn't buy the house, they rent it) and you really only get to read one side of the whole story. Just bad imo.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy.
I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
I think he is defending the English language more than TB. Though, TB is British, the people who created the English language...and does seem to us it correctly more often than not.
Hold on folks, we might be on to something here. However, it may not be the bias we were all expecting.
People criticize Slasher a lot but when you compare it to this you realize that e-sports journalism is a far from what it should be and that there are only a few good journalists in the scene.
Richard Lewis writes a smear job, gets a topic opened about him, gets his character and his writing smeared, feels the need to show up on the forum and defend his own smear job while saying the smear job on him is not accurate.
Richard Lewis writes a smear job, gets a topic opened about him, gets his character and his writing smeared, feels the need to show up on the forum and defend his own smear job while saying the smear job on him is not accurate.
If you're going to write like an asshole, be prepared for people to think you're kind of an asshole.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy.
I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
I think its an issue when people are donating to something that is a sink hole. Root has already failed before, and there is no way for them to generate income. They are not an EG or Liquid team that probably has the assets to support something like this on their own (which is why they are crowd sourcing it.) My issue isn't that they are doing this, or that Catz could run off with the money (because if he did, he would never have a place in SC2 after the shit storm that would follow that), my issue is that is not sustainable and that if they fail now, its not going to work in the future for someone who could make it work. Also, this comes off to me as Root trying to get something they haven't earned. Maybe I am wrong, they obviously have the fan base to raise the money, but to me its just looks like they haven't done it on their own so they are asking for the community to make the house happen for them.
The article is right in that there is ambiguity in the money. Flights, beds, computers, furniture, rent, deposit, computers, monitors is all that is listed. We don't even have a city yet. I don't want them to try to set up shop in some place that they will obviously fail at, like San Francisco, because it is a waste of money. This information isn't specific at all is what I am trying to get at. Are they buying king size pillow top mattresses each? There is ambiguity in the expenses (which is either Root really not having a plan, or Catz just feeling the need not to put the details on the fundraiser site.) Also, they say this on the page "a proper practice environment for our players - a very rare (if not nonexistent) thing on this side of the world" and how they will help develop the scene. That to me is just platitudes to make the house sound more important than it really is. I don't doubt that they will improve, but to act like they will be improving the ESports scene by having a house in California is not true.
All that being said, the responsibility, like everything for autonomous people, resides with the individual. If people want to donate, go for it (though 3k is fucking absurd imo.) I won't be because I see their fundraiser as evidence of their laziness and Root in the past has been an unsustainable business model.
Oh yeah, I have no problem with the style of writing. Who gives a damn how he brings the issue up. The information is public and a pointed article like this gets people talking, which I think is its entire point.
We have to protect people from donating their money now when all the information about what they will get back and what the money will do is told to them upfront?
This is the same logic that has people riled up over Zach Braff's project.
actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by abusing their passion.
I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker
My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want.
Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach.
I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me.
On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote: actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion.
I'm in full agreement with you here.
Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
On May 02 2013 04:20 edlover420 wrote: People who are so retarded that they donate thousands of dollars for some gaming house, rather than to charity/kids who are starving in Africa, don't deserve to have money anyway.
People who say this are, in my experience, the biggest hypocrites of all.
I didn't like the tone of the article or the hyperbolic attempts at humor, but I think there's something to the fact that Root asked for something above and beyond what any other organization would ask to buy in donations.
At its root, Root is asking people to pay rent and buy furnishings for four or five people, with a goal of $75k for a single year. They offer essentially nothing in return - not ownership in the team, not a say in evaluating management performance, nothing that allows them to keep the organization accountable. Root doesn't owe anything to the public in terms of transparency and accountability, but surely the guy who donated $3000 deserves to know that his money has been well spent, right?
Nobody is calling it "wrong", but it's fair to criticize the model and say budding e-sports teams need to find other ways of interacting with the community and garnering support.
Unfortunately, I will point out that Lewis contradicted his own article in the third paragraph by criticizing streamers. Streaming is different because viewers DO get something for their donations. Streamers can only get and maintain large viewer numbers by entertaining them, usually by playing the game well. A streamer could let viewers watch him browse the internet for six hours, but people would stop watching and stop donating. That's accountability and transparency.
On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote: actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion.
I'm in full agreement with you here.
Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager."
I think the journalist forgot to mention that if the ROOT gaming house fails it'll be the donators money that is going down the sink, the money of people who chose to give that money and had the information needed to do so. Why sohuld anyone care if its a good or a bad deal for them?
On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote: actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion.
I'm in full agreement with you here.
Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager."
Is this the wrong thread to ask how they would pay for a "full-time business development manager"?
I just think the core problem here is not that people are willing to donate, nor that Root have chosen to crowd source - rather that they seem to lack the means / expertise to fund it themselves. Would a gamer house massively increase revenue? How long would they rely on donations?
On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote: actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion.
I'm in full agreement with you here.
Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager."
Is this the wrong thread to ask how they would pay for a "full-time business development manager"?
I just think the core problem here is not that people are willing to donate, nor that Root have chosen to crowd source - rather that they seem to lack the means / expertise to fund it themselves. Would a gamer house massively increase revenue? How long would they rely on donations?
I doubt that they will be able to make the gaming house viable for more than a year. That's why I didn't donate but I have no problem if ROOT fans want to give them a chance at making a team house to see how it goes. Complaining about how people are willing to give ROOT a shot through a fundraiser is silly. It comes across as if Richard Lewis has an ulterior motive (more page views/personal vendetta against ROOT/Catz). The best thing for Catz to do would be to completely ignore the article.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy.
I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
The Root house fundraiser was basically like any other Kickstarter project. People donate to things they want to help succeed. This Richard Lewis guy doesn't seem too bright.
On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote: I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker
My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want.
Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach.
I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me.
Plz monetize me!
You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right?
Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy.
I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote: actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion.
I'm in full agreement with you here.
Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager."
Is this the wrong thread to ask how they would pay for a "full-time business development manager"?
I just think the core problem here is not that people are willing to donate, nor that Root have chosen to crowd source - rather that they seem to lack the means / expertise to fund it themselves. Would a gamer house massively increase revenue? How long would they rely on donations?
I doubt that they will be able to make the gaming house viable for more than a year. That's why I didn't donate but I have no problem if ROOT fans want to give them a chance at making a team house to see how it goes. Complaining about how people are willing to give ROOT a shot through a fundraiser is silly. It comes across as if Richard Lewis has an ulterior motive (more page views/personal vendetta against ROOT/Catz). The best thing for Catz to do would be to completely ignore the article.
Exactly. Had the tone of the article been "should we be concerned that Root are having to go down the donations route rather than organically growing their business" it would have had a lot more value. It's a trifle harsh to condemn them before they've even signed a lease!
My concern would be that they were unable to sell the idea to sponsors that a gaming house would provide any return on investment - which would suggest that there isn't a viable business plan in place. That being said, if people want to simply donate the money fully aware that it is a short term project ( as in, until the donations dry up), then it's people's money to do as they choose as far as I am concerned.
Out of interest, genuinely curious. How many of you actually read the article in its entirety?
Anyway, I like the idea of crowdsourced funding, and I believe wholeheartedly that Catz is genuine in his desire to make the NA scene more competitive. I still don't think a Root house is the optimal way to go about this, why not pool resources with other NA organisations and get a sick teamhouse where people from various NA teams can stay full-time, with space for others to come in and ramp up the level?
On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote: actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion.
I'm in full agreement with you here.
Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager."
Is this the wrong thread to ask how they would pay for a "full-time business development manager"?
I just think the core problem here is not that people are willing to donate, nor that Root have chosen to crowd source - rather that they seem to lack the means / expertise to fund it themselves. Would a gamer house massively increase revenue? How long would they rely on donations?
The problem with Root has always been that it has been comprised almost entirely of loose cohort of essentially independent players that what to do whatever they want, whenever they want.
Honestly, they need someone to sacrifice their own career as a player, step up and handle business development full time.
On May 02 2013 11:13 Wombat_NI wrote: Out of interest, genuinely curious. How many of you actually read the article in its entirety?
Anyway, I like the idea of crowdsourced funding, and I believe wholeheartedly that Catz is genuine in his desire to make the NA scene more competitive. I still don't think a Root house is the optimal way to go about this, why not pool resources with other NA organisations and get a sick teamhouse where people from various NA teams can stay full-time, with space for others to come in and ramp up the level?
I think Catz actually did say that they were looking into sharing a house with another team, although not necessarily sc2. not 100% sure on that.
sort of like he said that the fundraiser was for set up costs, and that they have enough income to sustain the house.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy.
I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
On May 02 2013 04:20 edlover420 wrote: People who are so retarded that they donate thousands of dollars for some gaming house, rather than to charity/kids who are starving in Africa, don't deserve to have money anyway.
People have the right to do with their money what they dam well please and you have absolutely no right to tell them otherwise.
Personally I find the rise of Kickstarter Culture laughably ridiculous and I do agree that this is harmful in the long term. A year from now when Root is in the same position they are in today (or worse?), are people going to be pissed off about the $25k pissed down the drain?
The campaign is "buy catz a year worth of groceries" with a masked name.
On May 02 2013 11:47 Gescom wrote: Personally I find the rise of Kickstarter Culture laughably ridiculous and I do agree that this is harmful in the long term. A year from now when Root is in the same position they are in today (or worse?), are people going to be pissed off about the $25k pissed down the drain?
Well kickstarter (originally) was to get back stuff people were willing to pay for that are gone. Tell me, how many rpg's like those in the infinity engine (Baldur's gate/Icewind dale/Planescape) have you seen in the last 10 years? When project Eternity was put on i jumped on it because i want more of those kind of games.
I'm not saying Kickstarter is useless by any means, I used the term Kickstarter Culture very specifically. People seem to be willing to spend money on the stupidest shit possible.
200k for Penny Arcade to disable ads...? 3k for MKP to go to an MLG...?
Meh, I'm not going to donate, but who cares if fans of Catz and the team want to fund a house? As long as Catz shows that the money goes to the right place and that their team is taking things seriously with the help of the community getting them a team house, I don't really see the problem.
The funniest thing is Absolute Legends trying the same thing and asking for $35,000 and only having $400 so far.
Kickstarters are awesome for certain things, the kind of niche things that people enjoy but perhaps won't exist without some kind of initial funding. Especially in the case of indie games and indie music they seem a pretty sensible way to go, provided there is some kind of initial material to base the fundraising off of.
I love the rise of this culture personally, well, they're sure as hell my only chance to ever get funding to record progressive jazz-fusion metal anytime shortly
They aren't a charity gig all the time, often it's simply to raise a cashflow to create something that you can't get off the ground otherwise. In the case of music for example, it's difficult to obtain 100% creative control if you're signed to a label, but equally it is tough to get a really good, polished product with all the expenses that entails. If you raise the funds yourself, you can go to a studio, hire the engineers you want or whatever, and create a product free of any interference that comes with a label funding it.
If any team was to do this, Root is that team anyway, given how it was started in the beginning essentially as a clan that became a pro team, with a lot of personalities that the NA scene in particular really took a shine to.
As Fionn says others attempts to fundraise haven't done so well. Personally as long as Catz lays out a clear framework for what the money is for etc, I have no issue with it. I just don't want to see another Project Dark Horse. As much as I love Puzzle and enjoyed seeing him at Dreamhack, the impression that was made was that the funding was to go for unheralded/unknown players.
Every time something that is potentially good gets misused, it makes future attempts more problematic, so I hope this goes smoothly for Root, and for the scene as a whole.
On May 02 2013 12:02 Fionn wrote: As long as Catz shows that the money goes to the right place and that their team is taking things seriously with the help of the community getting them a team house, I don't really see the problem.
Do you expect this to happen? I guess you can't call someone guilty in advance, but the esports community is like 2/200 on these sorts of initiatives.
Seems like he has it out for ROOT for what ever reason. I never read cadred bar the odd article here and there linked from reddit but I won't ever given the quality of journalism shown right here.
On May 02 2013 12:02 Fionn wrote: As long as Catz shows that the money goes to the right place and that their team is taking things seriously with the help of the community getting them a team house, I don't really see the problem.
Do you expect this to happen? I guess you can't call someone guilty in advance, but the esports community is like 2/200 on these sorts of initiatives.
I do. CatZ has generally proven himself to be a trustworthy person in the scene. I've also never seen him more serious about anything.
The problem with asking for donations is that you can only go into the well so many times. A team can only ask for your support, your tweets, your emails, your money, your eyeballs, etc so many times before it becomes tiresome and spammy. Only certain teams can even get away with doing this once, and ROOT is one of them. If they do this every year I assume the results will be diminished each time. Obviously this is something they considered and I doubt they'll be doing this very often. So while there really is nothing inherently wrong or immoral with a team asking for donations from fans, it may not be the best long term strategy. ROOT might be better off trying to find more sustainable ways to make money while not exhausting their fan support so quickly, as straight up asking for money directly tends to do. There is a cost to this and it's ROOT's goodwill with their fans, which isn't an infinite resource.
On May 02 2013 12:02 Fionn wrote: As long as Catz shows that the money goes to the right place and that their team is taking things seriously with the help of the community getting them a team house, I don't really see the problem.
Do you expect this to happen? I guess you can't call someone guilty in advance, but the esports community is like 2/200 on these sorts of initiatives.
I do. CatZ has generally proven himself to be a trustworthy person in the scene. I've also never seen him more serious about anything.
And that is all fair enough and likely 100% true. But even with the best will in the world, does Catz have any previous project management experience? Or experience providing transparency for the spending of such a large some of money on behalf of an organisation? Should he be held accountable if something goes wrong or worse, some of the money goes missing ?
Catz is a great community figure, certainly. But what this project clearly needs is a full time business or project manager, salaried and accountable, and how is this going to be paid for? Certainly not out of the $75k.
A worrying line is that they are hoping to get some sponsors in the future to cover certain expenses. It's a "jam tomorrow" approach that really isn't a viable way to proceed.
also people really didn't read the kickstarter.... They wanted to fund their set-up costs. Their goal was $25,000 to allow them to pay the large upfront costs of setting up a house, deposits, etc.
I believe Catz has stated they have the revenue to be able to sustain it after that. People saying that "ROOT IS GONNA FUCK THIS UP CAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY AIN"T GOT NO MONEY!" is an exaggeration.
Read the fundraiser before making these statements that kickstarting is suddenly their main source of revenue.......
On May 02 2013 12:55 Ravensong170 wrote: also people really didn't read the kickstarter.... They wanted to fund their set-up costs. Their goal was $25,000 to allow them to pay the large upfront costs of setting up a house, deposits, etc.
I believe Catz has stated they have the revenue to be able to sustain it after that. People saying that "ROOT IS GONNA FUCK THIS UP CAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY AIN"T GOT NO MONEY!" is an exaggeration.
Read the fundraiser before making these statements that kickstarting is suddenly their main source of revenue.......
With all due respect many of us have read both the Kickstarter and the article. It has simply been suggested that if they couldn't raise the finance for initial deposits, it ostensibly doesn't bode well for them being financially self sufficient in the future.
Further to your suggestion that " Catz has stated they have the revenue to be able to sustain it after that", it rather raises the question that if they are in rude financial health and could, possibly, raise the $25k themselves, is it sound business ethics to ask for donations?
Future revenue, if it is consistent and evidenced, can be borrowed against to raise lump sum finance. In british football clubs regularly borrow against future season ticket revenue, tv money, etc. Has this option been explored? If so, why was it ruled out?
I don't think the name calling is really necessary, I think its a good point, even if made obnoxiously. I seriously imagine next year McDonalds starts a kickstarter... or Kobe Bryant. I remember when people asked for donations to help hurricane victims, not create companies. If ROOT becomes a multi-million business I hope they give back their money at least.
On May 02 2013 13:38 DeathProfessor wrote: I don't think the name calling is really necessary, I think its a good point, even if made obnoxiously. I seriously imagine next year McDonalds starts a kickstarter... or Kobe Bryant. I remember when people asked for donations to help hurricane victims, not create companies. If ROOT becomes a multi-million business I hope they give back their money at least.
On May 02 2013 13:58 robopork wrote: I think these criticism come down to a lack of or a very muddled perspective. Either this house should or shouldn't happen, and it either can or can't happen without donations. I think it should happen and I think getting it done without supplementary funds is a pipe dream. Virtually all esports organizations spend everything they make. A lot of them spend more than they make. I'm not sure where Root falls, but I'd go out on a limb and say you won't find stacks of linen under Catz' mattress. This is really easy to criticize from an armchair because it's really difficult to actually empathize with unless you've been in or know someone in this type of a situation.
On May 02 2013 13:14 Heartscry wrote: Future revenue, if it is consistent and evidenced, can be borrowed against to raise lump sum finance. In british football clubs regularly borrow against future season ticket revenue, tv money, etc. Has this option been explored? If so, why was it ruled out?
British Football clubs vs Root Gaming? What bank in the US loans $25,000 to an esports organization unless they're crooked and looking to fuck you on interest? We're just not there yet.
EDIT: Decided not to fall for flame bait.
It was more used as an example of how revenue can be used in creative ways,rather than going down the donations route. Esports, I would argue, must find sustainable business models and surely ROOT has to be among the flagship teams to lead the way? Not to stretch an image too far but donations are like building a house on sand.
You talk quite rightly of supplementary funds. But usually, funds would come from a source where there would, usually, be an expected return on investment. Not only would this encourage sound business practices in an industry not exactly known for them, but it also creates accountability. You cannot hope to encourage future investment in Esports if money simply evaporates, with only the fulfilled dreams of a few chaps to show for it. As an isolated episode there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking donations from willing fans, of course. But there has to be a movement towards better organic growth or the backside will fall out of the industry.
Lets put it another way. Investors would be more keen to put money into the team if they could prove they had solid business plans and had sourced finance from reputable sources. Donations, in the long term, are extremely volatile and hardly encourage consumer confidence.
This is really bad "journalism", but at least it is pretty obvious that it is a lot of OPINIONS (which is what most "journalism" is nowadays ... albeit veiled a lot better).
Asking fans for money looks like a bad thing, because the fans are the weakest and last link in the line. So the whole effort has the look of a beggar. There is nothing wrong with asking though, because people can think for themselves and decide what to do with their money. Root has always been on the verge of being successful, but I really hope they manage it anyways ...
Treating your readers like dithering fools is a really good way to keep something legitimate #sarcasm. I can almost guarantee you that anyone who donated any significant amounts of money did so keeping in mind...
A) What they get value wise out of their money...IE: if I am some random dude who watches root players 2 or 3 hours a day, that's a shit ton of entertainment I'm getting and say a 100 dollar investment in them possibly being able to do more for me seems worth while.
B) Catz was very upfront about what their approximate running costs will be per year, and why they were doing the fundraiser, and where approximately the money will go. I'm fairly certain if enough people wanted a much more detailed accounting of what they did with the money Root would offer it up.
C) Did you know donating money to something like this can be used as a tax write off? food for thought there...if you don't believe me consult a tax expert.
I could go on but there is a billion reasons why I see no problem with attempting to crowd source anything assuming you think you can. So long as the money goes to what it was suppose to go towards there is no reason to resort to such slanderous writing.
Richard Lewis needs to check himself, it's this kind of bullshit 'journalism' that gives legitimate journalists a bad rep. He 'could' have had a legitimate opinion and made good points, but instead he resorted to acting like a playground bully who was mad because someone took his pudding cup.
If anyone takes his personal unfiltered take on a situation akin to a blog as journalism your an idiot.
Hell read this
Richard Lewis shares his derailed train of thought with the wider world in his regular column feature, Gonzorreah. This column is the sole opinion of the author and does not represent the opinion of Heaven Media Ltd or the opinion of any affiliates.
He never even try's to assert this as nothing more then his personal opinion.
Richard Lewis shares his derailed train of thought with the wider world in his regular column feature, Gonzorreah. This column is the sole opinion of the author and does not represent the opinion of Heaven Media Ltd or the opinion of any affiliates.
He never even try's to assert this as nothing more then his personal opinion.
stop creating strawmen
But if you read his comments at the bottom of the page, he clearly asserts that he is simply exercising a journalistic style, rather than merely a comments blog.
Always be careful when writing "your an idiot", for future reference.
Richard Lewis shares his derailed train of thought with the wider world in his regular column feature, Gonzorreah. This column is the sole opinion of the author and does not represent the opinion of Heaven Media Ltd or the opinion of any affiliates.
He never even try's to assert this as nothing more then his personal opinion.
stop creating strawmen
Having an opinion and claiming you have no standard of integrity to hold up to is irrelevant, you ask the world to read it, the world will respond as well.
Just like the rich get richer, the popular benefit for calls for donation over the...worthy? Talented? Needy?
Zach Braff just made a Kickstarter to fund his next film...hes a multimillionaire receiving regular royalty checks who could've easily paid for it himself. But he didn't. His fans paid for it - gladly. Thats a commercial product. He'll make bank off the movies release and distribution.
The fact of the matter is theres no moral absolutes, and the world isn't perfect. Tons of people get more satisfaction from donating to a bunch of guys they like than they would donating to a starving beggar on the street. Tons of people feel those guys are more deserving than starving Aricans. Who is to say they're wrong?
In the end its peoples own money, and its up to them to spend it. You can feel its slimy all you want, and thats OK. Richards opinion is OK. People donating is OK. Roots move is OK, its their reputation they put on the line, the trust they've earned.
Professionals earn their living, it’s not given to them. Anything else is just garbage.
This sentence is fucking garbage.
Care to elaborate? Because that's his point: organisations getting themselves pushed into higher financial levels they can't reach by themselves. That's bad business because it's not sustainable and therefore not the way to go
"What we can safely say is that ROOT are in a position to make money from what they do. If they don’t make enough, why should it be on the community to help them make more, to take their business to a stage it is unable to reach without charitable donations? If they don’t earn enough then the implication is that either they don’t do smart enough business or their product isn’t in high enough demand. Either way, if they want to progress, they should be speculating and that should come from within or through private investment, not through asking everyone who enjoys their players or uses their website (which is in itself an act that provides ad revenue) to have a whip round."
Richard Lewis shares his derailed train of thought with the wider world in his regular column feature, Gonzorreah. This column is the sole opinion of the author and does not represent the opinion of Heaven Media Ltd or the opinion of any affiliates.
He never even try's to assert this as nothing more then his personal opinion.
stop creating strawmen
I've read plenty of opinion pieces. Most writers will have the balls to make it loud and clear that the article is solely their opinion, and will at least state why they have such an opinion.
Richard Lewis doesn't back up any of his assertions. Once you cut out all the fluff, the jokes, the meaningless analogies, and the layers of weasel words and phrases to pretend that evidence and other people support his accusations (without naming a single one), all you have is him repeatedly stating how horrible ROOT is ad nauseum.
Professionals earn their living, it’s not given to them. Anything else is just garbage.
This sentence is fucking garbage.
Care to elaborate? Because that's his point: organisations getting themselves pushed into higher financial levels they can't reach by themselves. That's bad business because it's not sustainable and therefore not the way to go
"What we can safely say is that ROOT are in a position to make money from what they do. If they don’t make enough, why should it be on the community to help them make more, to take their business to a stage it is unable to reach without charitable donations? If they don’t earn enough then the implication is that either they don’t do smart enough business or their product isn’t in high enough demand. Either way, if they want to progress, they should be speculating and that should come from within or through private investment, not through asking everyone who enjoys their players or uses their website (which is in itself an act that provides ad revenue) to have a whip round."
That paragraph is a perfect example of what I said.
- "ROOT can make money. Or maybe they don't." - Rhetorical question generalizing donations as bad, and to force readers into a single thought path. - Unsupported conclusion that ROOT has no business model and it doesn't work. - Unsupported statement that money should always come from internal sources or private investment.
In other words, a whole lot of crap. He never says why a method is bad, just take his word for it. And he never gives evidence about ROOT's supposed failure, only that he wants to jump to that conclusion.
I don't see the problem, it's not like Root forced anyone to give them money. They were as transparent as it can get when it comes to what the money would go to; details posted on the fundraiser page as well as a 24h livestream which included an AMA with all of the staff thus giving plenty of opportunity for people to find out even more about the project.
Richard Lewis just makes himself look like an angry child with shit like this. He's either looking for cheap pageviews or he's just mad at Catz or something.
Professionals earn their living, it’s not given to them. Anything else is just garbage.
This sentence is fucking garbage.
Care to elaborate? Because that's his point: organisations getting themselves pushed into higher financial levels they can't reach by themselves. That's bad business because it's not sustainable and therefore not the way to go
"What we can safely say is that ROOT are in a position to make money from what they do. If they don’t make enough, why should it be on the community to help them make more, to take their business to a stage it is unable to reach without charitable donations? If they don’t earn enough then the implication is that either they don’t do smart enough business or their product isn’t in high enough demand. Either way, if they want to progress, they should be speculating and that should come from within or through private investment, not through asking everyone who enjoys their players or uses their website (which is in itself an act that provides ad revenue) to have a whip round."
That paragraph is a perfect example of what I said.
- "ROOT can make money. Or maybe they don't." - Rhetorical question generalizing donations as bad, and to force readers into a single thought path. - Unsupported conclusion that ROOT has no business model and it doesn't work. - Unsupported statement that money should always come from internal sources or private investment.
In other words, a whole lot of crap. He never says why a method is bad, just take his word for it. And he never gives evidence about ROOT's supposed failure, only that he wants to jump to that conclusion.
I agree that the article lacks depth and backup, but he still has a point. If we want esports to become a business like regular sports then charity is not the way to go
Also I didn't see any "unsupported conlusion that ROOT has no business model and it doesn't work". Actually in the first sentence of the paragraph he states otherwise (though unsupported). And for that particular point it's not essential for him to be right: either they make enough money for a house with their business (in this case they don't need donations), or they're not supposed to have it
Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote: Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote: Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money.
A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return.
I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong.
Obvious attempt to grab attention by starting a controversy Don't like what he says? don't read his stuff, don't comment about, don't even give it a second thought. Let the hate bandwagon jumpers circle jerk themselves for a bit till the thread quickly dies and maybe this guy will realise that such conduct is unacceptable
I think the point that stuck with me the most is the fact that the gaming house is not something that can be consumed by the people who contributed to it. It's not a game; it's not a movie; it's not a piece of art. It's not even a social cause; something that can't be handled by the free market. It's a commercial issue for a specific organization. There's a reason why non-profit organizations exists when dealing with donations and even that concept has been abused.
It makes me think about the negative response to micro-transactions when that business model became popular or even DLCs. Even that makes more sense than this because even though it's just a virtual good, it's something that you can consume. It allows the game developers to have a more continuous source of income which they could use to further the development of the game which would benefit everyone not just those who paid. If the amount expected exceeds the amount needed for the gaming house, what exactly do you get and how exactly would that benefit those who contributed?
It's also not as simple as just ignoring it and saying that people can do whatever they wish with their money because even if you personally has not partake in it, the success of micro-transactions and DLCs has changed the gaming industry significantly. It's the same thing here. If a lot of e-sports organizations choose this donation route, it will change the industry for better or for worse.
On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote: Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money.
A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return.
I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong.
Look up the Barcelona's income model. They literally ask for their fans for money. Truth be told, the fans don't want the team's jersey to have any kind of ad, but to each their own.
On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote: Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money.
A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return.
I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong.
Look up the Barcelona's income model. They literally ask for their fans for money. Truth be told, the fans don't want the team's jersey to have any kind of ad, but to each their own.
Actually, that's an interesting one too, as Barcelona fans actually "own" the club through a rights issue. So again, they receive something in return for their investment, however intangible. The fans might not want advertising on their shirts, but slowly but surely that has given way to financial necessity (previously for charity of course). The idea of being "more than a club" comes from this idea of fan ownership. They are incentivised to provide money through - the continued existence of the club, better players to be purchased with their money, better facilities etc. This could be an idea to take forward, however- could some form of rights issue work with an Esports organisation? Could fans "own" a team? That would be excellent.
For me - and I am repeating myself a fair bit here - this is completely different to a donation for a team house with absolutely no ownership or return.
On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking.
OH THE IRONY
Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
I think he does similar things but in a different way. I cringe everytime I see a post in Reddit where Genna tells all of us how she treats the koreans so well (oh you silly Crank, did you read the contract? We are paying you more! :3 <3)
That's why I considered it to be ironic rather than hypocritic, since it's not the same thing. But I hate when people have a BUSINESS and try to make it look like a charity. I like passionate guys like Artosis or Khaldor, I don't like these newcomers that left a sinking ship and began riding the new cool wave and try to look like this second coming of Mother Teresa.
There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings
On May 02 2013 18:55 shell wrote: There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings
Right chaps we are going round in circles here, so this will be my last post in this thread.
In your example, you paid 50€ and got a kit, 17.5€ and got a match ticket, 12.5€ for all sorts of long term benefits, notwithstanding the attachment to your club and the feeling you financially support them. You received something at every stage for your money.
If you donate to ROOT, and by all means do, unless you are one of the top donators you will receive nothing tangible. This is the core difference.
On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote: Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money.
A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return.
I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong.
Look up the Barcelona's income model. They literally ask for their fans for money. Truth be told, the fans don't want the team's jersey to have any kind of ad, but to each their own.
Actually, that's an interesting one too, as Barcelona fans actually "own" the club through a rights issue. So again, they receive something in return for their investment, however intangible. The fans might not want advertising on their shirts, but slowly but surely that has given way to financial necessity (previously for charity of course). The idea of being "more than a club" comes from this idea of fan ownership. They are incentivised to provide money through - the continued existence of the club, better players to be purchased with their money, better facilities etc. This could be an idea to take forward, however- could some form of rights issue work with an Esports organisation? Could fans "own" a team? That would be excellent.
For me - and I am repeating myself a fair bit here - this is completely different to a donation for a team house with absolutely no ownership or return.
You already identified the point that I was making. Fans fund their teams through many means, at times receiving only an intangible benefit. What root is doing is no different from my perspective.
E: You're ignoring the replay pack, no matter how little value you personally place on it.
On May 02 2013 18:55 shell wrote: There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings
Right chaps we are going round in circles here, so this will be my last post in this thread.
In your example, you paid 50€ and got a kit, 17.5€ and got a match ticket, 12.5€ for all sorts of long term benefits, notwithstanding the attachment to your club and the feeling you financially support them. You received something at every stage for your money.
If you donate to ROOT, and by all means do, unless you are one of the top donators you will receive nothing tangible. This is the core difference.
You get the personal pleasure of helping a team you like! Of course a Sport is much more important then any Esport and it's also way more evolved.. maybe some day we can have a structure like a sport with a stadium etc..
The only problem i see with this is that they thread a thin line beetween getting what they want and need or absolutely failling if their fans and supporters can't put up the money.. The real problem is that a team with so many known players need to do this because they lack funding for "normal" sponsors
On May 02 2013 18:55 shell wrote: There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings
Right chaps we are going round in circles here, so this will be my last post in this thread.
In your example, you paid 50€ and got a kit, 17.5€ and got a match ticket, 12.5€ for all sorts of long term benefits, notwithstanding the attachment to your club and the feeling you financially support them. You received something at every stage for your money.
If you donate to ROOT, and by all means do, unless you are one of the top donators you will receive nothing tangible. This is the core difference.
Do you realize that they didnt tell LOOK WE NEED UR MONEY PLZ SEND US ALL U HAVE............... ITS VOLUNTARY god let people donate to whereever they want, its not ur money.
On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote: I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker
My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want.
Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach.
I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me.
Plz monetize me!
You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right?
Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year.
1st. Yes but they can do it themselves.. so its free! Taping and cut and paste is not that hard. If they can stream, they can make a weekly vod about how there team is evolving.
2nd. Idea's like this would have been worth more than the original kickstarter that was held, Thats what kickstarters are about : giving peeps something they really want. I could give 100 more examples that would have been worth more to the esports crowd then the original kickstarter!
Seeing how successful this has been I can imagine a lot of other teams are going to jump on the bandwagon and try and get donations for stuff, but as long as they don't do it on TL I don't care. It's easy enough to avoid looking at their websites.and streams. If it wasn't for this opinion column I wouldn't have even heard about this. Seems weird to get mad about something that is between Root and its fans and doesn't affect anyone else.
On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote: I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker
My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want.
Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach.
I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me.
Plz monetize me!
You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right?
Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year.
1st. Yes but they can do it themselves.. so its free! Taping and cut and paste is not that hard. If they can stream, they can make a weekly vod about how there team is evolving.
2nd. Idea's like this would have been worth more than the original kickstarter that was held, Thats what kickstarters are about : giving peeps something they really want. I could give 100 more examples that would have been worth more to the esports crowd then the original kickstarter!
Having just listened to the Giant Bomb cast and hearing Vinny Caravella talk about all the effort it takes to shoot a press conference, I think you are under estimating the amount of time and effort it takes to create quality content. If it was as easy as cut and paste, we would all do it.
On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote: I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker
My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want.
Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach.
I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me.
Plz monetize me!
You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right?
Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year.
1st. Yes but they can do it themselves.. so its free! Taping and cut and paste is not that hard. If they can stream, they can make a weekly vod about how there team is evolving.
2nd. Idea's like this would have been worth more than the original kickstarter that was held, Thats what kickstarters are about : giving peeps something they really want. I could give 100 more examples that would have been worth more to the esports crowd then the original kickstarter!
Having just listened to the Giant Bomb cast and hearing Vinny Caravella talk about all the effort it takes to shoot a press conference, I think you are under estimating the amount of time and effort it takes to create quality content. If it was as easy as cut and paste, we would all do it.
I think your reaction on my post has nothing to do with what i pointed out!
can we stop calling these people esports journalists and call them for what they are? glorified bloggers. It sullies the name of journalism. I get it, they are passionate and enjoy it, but lets not call the kitten a lion. this goes for slasher too... these guys are trying to make THEMSELVES relevant by spitting vitriolic crap.
On May 02 2013 04:20 edlover420 wrote: People who are so retarded that they donate thousands of dollars for some gaming house, rather than to charity/kids who are starving in Africa, don't deserve to have money anyway.
People have the right to do with their money what they dam well please and you have absolutely no right to tell them otherwise.
At least they don't spend their money into war and killing people..............................
Isn't one of the new big things in the movie industry publicly funded movies? Fans can get together and pool money to get the ball rolling on films that would otherwise never see the light of day. Root is basically doing the same thing.
The audience can do what they will with their money, they earned it. People who question the ethics of this type of practice will be the type of people that question what you spent your extra pennies on at the store.
"Until the fans get wise to what this is e-sports can’t be professional. Professionals earn their living, it’s not given to them. Anything else is just garbage."
This sounds like sour grapes. Also I feel inclined to point out, it should be "Until the fan's get wise to what this is, esports will never be professional." But hey, who am I to critique this masterpiece of journalism. Just because the article is filled with grammatical errors, baiting, hearsay, from a "Journalist" that is picking at the scraps of an industry filled with people trying to make a name for themselves.
This guy comes off as such a jelly dude in the whole article.
IIRC you would get something (T-shit, visit @ game house, etc.) if you donated, so this article doesn't make any sense, it's like pre-ordering (and is just how kick start, etc. work, and anybody who is against that should be shot).
On May 02 2013 23:06 Douillos wrote: IIRC you would get something (T-shit, visit @ game house, etc.) if you donated, so this article doesn't make any sense, it's like pre-ordering (and is just how kick start, etc. work, and anybody who is against that should be shot).
Shot? That's fucked up. I was about to agree with you but dude, no.
While it's hard to make this kind of article without sounding like an ass, he has some valid points. ROOT has had some....desperation pickups, lets say.
This whole argument reaks of what the US government does to gap the regular joe with financial institutions.
"Because we don't believe in it, someone else who does shouldn't be allowed to do it".
Free market.. If the product is a dud, people don't buy it. Obviously Roots passion and drive to have a gaming house in the bay area is a strong product. Otherwise the masses wouldn't have bought into it.
On May 02 2013 12:55 Ravensong170 wrote: also people really didn't read the kickstarter.... They wanted to fund their set-up costs. Their goal was $25,000 to allow them to pay the large upfront costs of setting up a house, deposits, etc.
I believe Catz has stated they have the revenue to be able to sustain it after that. People saying that "ROOT IS GONNA FUCK THIS UP CAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY AIN"T GOT NO MONEY!" is an exaggeration.
Read the fundraiser before making these statements that kickstarting is suddenly their main source of revenue.......
With all due respect many of us have read both the Kickstarter and the article. It has simply been suggested that if they couldn't raise the finance for initial deposits, it ostensibly doesn't bode well for them being financially self sufficient in the future.
Further to your suggestion that " Catz has stated they have the revenue to be able to sustain it after that", it rather raises the question that if they are in rude financial health and could, possibly, raise the $25k themselves, is it sound business ethics to ask for donations?
Future revenue, if it is consistent and evidenced, can be borrowed against to raise lump sum finance. In british football clubs regularly borrow against future season ticket revenue, tv money, etc. Has this option been explored? If so, why was it ruled out?
With these lump sum finance options still available, why do you think Pompey, Exeter, and Wimbledon are owned by a fan trust right now? Or why Manchester United Fan Trust is often known as Shareholders United? How about Swansea City with a 20% fan ownership, only 2.5% less than the Morgans who owns the most in shares?
Oh and if ROOT is to be criticized, how about the tale of Jeffery Loria?
Well, he is correct in that Root should not, and realistically cannot, move into a gaming house. It would be a complete wrong priority. It would be 100% mismanagement.
The gaming house bubble burst last year, when even organizations like Quantic and Complexity realized that it's just not worth the investment. It costs a TON of money, and doesn't automagically put your team or players in the spotlight, or make them better.
The Florida marlins are a great example of 'crowd funding' in pro sports gone somewhat wrong....team was thinking of leaving unless they got a new stadium. Fans obviously don't want that to happen sooo.
2.6 Billion gets to be paid off through a special tax around miami/dade county to keep the team there. What do the fans paying that 2.6 billion get? Nada zip zero ziltch...other then if they like the team the team didn't leave. If they didn't like the team they were in the minority so they get to pay anyways.
At least in the case of Root nobody extorted the fans by threatening to shut down / leave if they didn't give them a new house (stadium in marlins example). Nor did Root force EG/Axiom/Liquid fans through a tax to pay for their house just because they live where the Root house will be (tax in dade county to pay off the 2.6).
On May 03 2013 01:24 Nerski wrote: The Florida marlins are a great example of 'crowd funding' in pro sports gone somewhat wrong....team was thinking of leaving unless they got a new stadium. Fans obviously don't want that to happen sooo.
Thats funny because the old stadium was pretty much empty for the most part. I would of thought the fans wouldnt care about that stuff.
On May 03 2013 01:10 dizzy101 wrote: Well, he is correct in that Root should not, and realistically cannot, move into a gaming house. It would be a complete wrong priority. It would be 100% mismanagement.
The gaming house bubble burst last year, when even organizations like Quantic and Complexity realized that it's just not worth the investment. It costs a TON of money, and doesn't automagically put your team or players in the spotlight, or make them better.
It is what you make of it. You need to have proper content coming out of it.
On May 02 2013 19:29 QuackPocketDuck wrote: Everyone spends their money as they wish whats there to discuss? Who is Richard anyway?
A troll who takes himself seriously
Learn 2 esports history pls. Richard Lewis is one of the most respected eSports journalist out there.
And you don't even remember being interviewed by him a month ago!?
All two of them? I mean, that's sort of a limited field to be the "most respected" in. I mean, I am the best SC2 player from my home town, which is 900 people and only about 5 families have high speed internet. But I am the best and most respected.
How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?? This isn't pro football. Just becuase teams mark themselves as pro won't mean they have viable means of supporting themselves.
Donating money to Root isn't just supporting Root, its supporting foreign eSports in general. They need money to move forward. These aren't fortune 500 organizations we are talking about here. I will gladly donate to Root. Not just to help Catz but to help our foreign scene.
Lets put this perspective a bit. Where as eSports is growing as a whole, our foreign teams need a ton of help to get off their feet.
Root's fund-raiser isn't exactly unprecedented. There have been a lot of donation oriented events in SC2 (e.g., Shoutcraft) and even Twitch subscriptions are basically charity -- you can still watch the streams if you don't. A number of the Korean teams have done fundraisers as well.
I think there is a deeper problem in esports in that there is fan-based money out here that wants to support the teams and players they root for. But unlike physical sports with ticket sales, it's not clear how money gets channeled to the players. When somebody like MLG tries to charge for online content (theoretically the first step if you trust the money gets through to the players), there's always a huge backlash. And there just aren't very many offline tournaments to sell tickets for.
Team-branded gear seems like it ought to be a reasonable channel for this, but it has overhead/start-up costs and you gamble a bit that you'll sell enough to be worthwhile.
For a lot of these pieces, you can get more money into the scene by charging higher rates (e.g., $100 team jerseys) but a lot of the fan base does not have a lot of money to put in and we want the base growing.
So you end up with a lot of voluntary spending (watch for free, donate if you can), which is essentially charity. Root is just playing this game the same way everybody else in esports is doing it. I don't think there is anything negative to be said about that.
Professionals earn their living, it’s not given to them. Anything else is just garbage.
This sentence is fucking garbage.
Care to elaborate? Because that's his point: organisations getting themselves pushed into higher financial levels they can't reach by themselves. That's bad business because it's not sustainable and therefore not the way to go
"What we can safely say is that ROOT are in a position to make money from what they do. If they don’t make enough, why should it be on the community to help them make more, to take their business to a stage it is unable to reach without charitable donations? If they don’t earn enough then the implication is that either they don’t do smart enough business or their product isn’t in high enough demand. Either way, if they want to progress, they should be speculating and that should come from within or through private investment, not through asking everyone who enjoys their players or uses their website (which is in itself an act that provides ad revenue) to have a whip round."
That paragraph is a perfect example of what I said.
- "ROOT can make money. Or maybe they don't." - Rhetorical question generalizing donations as bad, and to force readers into a single thought path. - Unsupported conclusion that ROOT has no business model and it doesn't work. - Unsupported statement that money should always come from internal sources or private investment.
In other words, a whole lot of crap. He never says why a method is bad, just take his word for it. And he never gives evidence about ROOT's supposed failure, only that he wants to jump to that conclusion.
I agree that the article lacks depth and backup, but he still has a point. If we want esports to become a business like regular sports then charity is not the way to go
Also I didn't see any "unsupported conlusion that ROOT has no business model and it doesn't work". Actually in the first sentence of the paragraph he states otherwise (though unsupported). And for that particular point it's not essential for him to be right: either they make enough money for a house with their business (in this case they don't need donations), or they're not supposed to have it
You're just repeating the same statements he does, and you don't give any support either.
What does "esports becoming a business" have to do with ROOT getting $25000 in start-up costs? Why aren't they "supposed to have that money"? Why can't they look for donations for that one-time cost?
Fact of the matter is that ROOT needed startup money for a Team House, their chosen method was a fundraiser, and they got the money. Unless you can actually show how this remotely hurts anything in the scene, all of your shoulds and supposed tos are meaningless.
Professionals earn their living, it’s not given to them. Anything else is just garbage.
This sentence is fucking garbage.
Care to elaborate? Because that's his point: organisations getting themselves pushed into higher financial levels they can't reach by themselves. That's bad business because it's not sustainable and therefore not the way to go
"What we can safely say is that ROOT are in a position to make money from what they do. If they don’t make enough, why should it be on the community to help them make more, to take their business to a stage it is unable to reach without charitable donations? If they don’t earn enough then the implication is that either they don’t do smart enough business or their product isn’t in high enough demand. Either way, if they want to progress, they should be speculating and that should come from within or through private investment, not through asking everyone who enjoys their players or uses their website (which is in itself an act that provides ad revenue) to have a whip round."
That paragraph is a perfect example of what I said.
- "ROOT can make money. Or maybe they don't." - Rhetorical question generalizing donations as bad, and to force readers into a single thought path. - Unsupported conclusion that ROOT has no business model and it doesn't work. - Unsupported statement that money should always come from internal sources or private investment.
In other words, a whole lot of crap. He never says why a method is bad, just take his word for it. And he never gives evidence about ROOT's supposed failure, only that he wants to jump to that conclusion.
I agree that the article lacks depth and backup, but he still has a point. If we want esports to become a business like regular sports then charity is not the way to go
Also I didn't see any "unsupported conlusion that ROOT has no business model and it doesn't work". Actually in the first sentence of the paragraph he states otherwise (though unsupported). And for that particular point it's not essential for him to be right: either they make enough money for a house with their business (in this case they don't need donations), or they're not supposed to have it
You're just repeating the same statements he does, and you don't give any support either.
What does "esports becoming a business" have to do with ROOT getting $25000 in start-up costs? Why aren't they "supposed to have that money"? Why can't they look for donations for that one-time cost?
Fact of the matter is that ROOT needed startup money for a Team House, their chosen method was a fundraiser, and they got the money. Unless you can actually show how this remotely hurts anything in the scene, all of your shoulds and supposed tos are meaningless.
Yeah, I don't really get the concept that the fund raiser is somehow a bad idea. There is a local farm that has a farm stand and mini market every fall. A couple years ago a tree fell and crushed the roof of the stand, so they couldn't do business that year and their insurance refused to cover all the repairs. They had a fund raiser get the place up and running and we all live happily every after, being able to buy apple pies every fall.
Business and charity are not mutually exclusive. Businesses can run fund raisers and still be viable.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?? This isn't pro football. Just becuase teams mark themselves as pro won't mean they have viable means of supporting themselves.
Donating money to Root isn't just supporting Root, its supporting foreign eSports in general. They need money to move forward. These aren't fortune 500 organizations we are talking about here. I will gladly donate to Root. Not just to help Catz but to help our foreign scene.
Lets put this perspective a bit. Where as eSports is growing as a whole, our foreign teams need a ton of help to get off their feet.
All startups raise capital somehow, and crowdsourcing it isn't a crime.
The issue is that Root is raising capital for an ongoing initiative that either a) isn't sustainable by strictly donations OR b) doesn't need crowdsourcing in the first place.
$25,000 is an odd number. It's not an insignificant amount, but it's definitely not enough money to feed or pay rent for a team of people for more than six to eight months. So what do they need the money for? What's the plan?
Do they expect stream ad revenue to magically spike, just because they are in a team house, and then decide to pool that additional ad revenue together in order to pay for the house?
Do they have sponsors lined up, contingent on them forming a team house? It's hard to imagine why a sponsor would care whether they are in a house or not.
Are they going to need another round of 'financing' *cough handouts cough* in eight to ten months to sustain themselves?
Or maybe (and most likely) they already each make enough individually to cover their own expenses month to month. And rather than save up for the cost of travel and moving themselves, they are calling on the community to foot the bill.
They have 15 players on their SC2 team. I don't know how many are planning moving to the team house, but $25,000 split between even 5 or 6 guys is not a lot of money.
I'd be more inclined to make a one-time donation to something singular and concrete — like a flight to an MLG or a new computer. Starting and maintaining a team house is an ongoing expense is something I can't support as 'an investor' or as a donor, without some kind of confidence they have an plan outside of suddenly winning more tournaments.
It's a good idea to read http://www.root-gaming.com/fundraiser and Team House AMA before posting. It's okay if you actually know the facts and don't approve, but some people obviously are basing their opinions / posts purely on incorrect information / assumptions.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?
Hardly any. And you know why that is? Because it's a huge investment that simply doesn't pay off. The negatives outweigh the positives. What can you do with a teamhouse that you can't do without a teamhouse? Not much. "Content" isn't magically gunna produce itself.
Why would a team like Complexity that's been around for over a decade, and is active in lots of different genres, even shut down their gaming house? In 2011/2012, there was brief gaming house frenzy where everybody and their mother thought they needed one. I bet plenty of teams lost big chunks of cash before they realized it's simply not worth it.
Why not use the $ to fly out players to tournaments? To pay them an allowance of some type? Or even to send em to Korea for a bit?
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?
Hardly any. And you know why that is? Because it's a huge investment that simply doesn't pay off. The negatives outweigh the positives. What can you do with a teamhouse that you can't do without a teamhouse? Not much. "Content" isn't magically gunna produce itself.
Why would a team like Complexity that's been around for over a decade, and is active in lots of different genres, even shut down their gaming house? In 2011/2012, there was brief gaming house frenzy where everybody and their mother thought they needed one. I bet plenty of teams lost big chunks of cash before they realized it's simply not worth it.
Why not use the $ to fly out players to tournaments? To pay them an allowance of some type? Or even to send em to Korea for a bit?
A team house can be very useful if you use it right.
* You need to use the fact you have many of your players under one roof to produce content that can lead to more sponsors for starters. Quantic and Complexity both really didn't do this. Quantic had other issues, but in the case of complexity a team house purely for practice that wasn't very organized didn't make sense so they got out.
* You have to put together some sort of practice schedule regime or having all the players under one roof is useless.
* You 100% can not deny all the team houses in Korea are not a large part in the reason they do so well and a random korean masters player who gets on a team improves dramatically once brought into a team house.
TLDR: If you don't use it right of course it's a waste, so the key is to use it right. NA side so far the only team that's made good use of their team house is EG which is why they still have one.
The idea that people are asking for money...and then people are giving them money....that someone making a conscious decision to part with their money because someone asked them to could actually make people angry is very surprising to me.
I've always thought of things in this light: in gaming today there are e-athletes and entertainers. Now, the best of the best are a bit of both. You have guys like Whitera who is a very highly skilled, tournament winner that creates a great product by way of his stream. For that, people watch him...some watch to see his skill, some watch to be entertained.
You then have people like Jaedong. I don't know about you but whenever I happen to what his stream it's usually large blocks of time with the camera focused on his face outside of a game where he's checking email or some such thing. Then he gets into a game and performs. I've never watched him to be entertained but man that guy can play. He's very much an e-athlete to me.
Then finally you have the entertainers. For this, I'll speak solely of Catz. Catz is a good player. He'd stomp me up and down, I know that much. Yet, is he out there winning tournaments left and right? No. He IS good though and yet, more than that, it's very enjoyable to watch his stream. He has a great sense of humor, he engages his audience, and he puts on a show; you can learn while watching him but when I watch I do so because I want to relax and have a good time, not necessarily because I want to check out those sick inject timings.
I say all of that to say that I play ROOT largely in the entertainment side of things. I place Louis CK, Bill Burr, and Brian Reagan there, too. They are all comics. Comics that I have paid to see. Bill has a podcast and I've donated to that because I feel that I am being provided a service when I listen to it even though it's free and if I want to continue to have the opportunity to listen Bill needs to be incentivized to continue producing it. I've never thrown $100 at it or anything but a small amount of cash to say thanks is nice.
So when ROOT opened up their streamathon to earn money for their house and I was entertained by it, I gave. It was five entire dollars. It didn't break me and it didn't make them. Still, I like the team, I like the players, I enjoy the content they produce and I took the opportunity to incentivize the creation of more. The idea that something like would be frowned upon by someone or, further, the idea that content can just rain from the sky without any means of funding and the creators of which should be so blessed as to give it to us is odd.
TL;DR: People pay for what they like. Some gave money here, some didn't. In each case, free will and an individual's ability to place value on content reigned supreme.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?? This isn't pro football. Just becuase teams mark themselves as pro won't mean they have viable means of supporting themselves.
Donating money to Root isn't just supporting Root, its supporting foreign eSports in general. They need money to move forward. These aren't fortune 500 organizations we are talking about here. I will gladly donate to Root. Not just to help Catz but to help our foreign scene.
Lets put this perspective a bit. Where as eSports is growing as a whole, our foreign teams need a ton of help to get off their feet.
All startups raise capital somehow, and crowdsourcing it isn't a crime.
The issue is that Root is raising capital for an ongoing initiative that either a) isn't sustainable by strictly donations OR b) doesn't need crowdsourcing in the first place.
$25,000 is an odd number. It's not an insignificant amount, but it's definitely not enough money to feed or pay rent for a team of people for more than six to eight months. So what do they need the money for? What's the plan?
Do they expect stream ad revenue to magically spike, just because they are in a team house, and then decide to pool that additional ad revenue together in order to pay for the house?
Do they have sponsors lined up, contingent on them forming a team house? It's hard to imagine why a sponsor would care whether they are in a house or not.
Are they going to need another round of 'financing' *cough handouts cough* in eight to ten months to sustain themselves?
Or maybe (and most likely) they already each make enough individually to cover their own expenses month to month. And rather than save up for the cost of travel and moving themselves, they are calling on the community to foot the bill.
They have 15 players on their SC2 team. I don't know how many are planning moving to the team house, but $25,000 split between even 5 or 6 guys is not a lot of money.
I'd be more inclined to make a one-time donation to something singular and concrete — like a flight to an MLG or a new computer. Starting and maintaining a team house is an ongoing expense is something I can't support as 'an investor' or as a donor, without some kind of confidence they have an plan outside of suddenly winning more tournaments.
Well, if you bothered to read ROOT's own fundraiser page, they make it quite clear that the $25000 pays for the initial startup costs, and that their current business pulls in enough revenue to cover recurring costs. It pays the costs of people moving, the cost of setting up computers and streaming equipment, and all the one-time costs involved when an entire team moves to a new location and establishes a place for their business.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?? This isn't pro football. Just becuase teams mark themselves as pro won't mean they have viable means of supporting themselves.
Donating money to Root isn't just supporting Root, its supporting foreign eSports in general. They need money to move forward. These aren't fortune 500 organizations we are talking about here. I will gladly donate to Root. Not just to help Catz but to help our foreign scene.
Lets put this perspective a bit. Where as eSports is growing as a whole, our foreign teams need a ton of help to get off their feet.
All startups raise capital somehow, and crowdsourcing it isn't a crime.
The issue is that Root is raising capital for an ongoing initiative that either a) isn't sustainable by strictly donations OR b) doesn't need crowdsourcing in the first place.
$25,000 is an odd number. It's not an insignificant amount, but it's definitely not enough money to feed or pay rent for a team of people for more than six to eight months. So what do they need the money for? What's the plan?
Do they expect stream ad revenue to magically spike, just because they are in a team house, and then decide to pool that additional ad revenue together in order to pay for the house?
Do they have sponsors lined up, contingent on them forming a team house? It's hard to imagine why a sponsor would care whether they are in a house or not.
Are they going to need another round of 'financing' *cough handouts cough* in eight to ten months to sustain themselves?
Or maybe (and most likely) they already each make enough individually to cover their own expenses month to month. And rather than save up for the cost of travel and moving themselves, they are calling on the community to foot the bill.
They have 15 players on their SC2 team. I don't know how many are planning moving to the team house, but $25,000 split between even 5 or 6 guys is not a lot of money.
I'd be more inclined to make a one-time donation to something singular and concrete — like a flight to an MLG or a new computer. Starting and maintaining a team house is an ongoing expense is something I can't support as 'an investor' or as a donor, without some kind of confidence they have an plan outside of suddenly winning more tournaments.
Well, if you bothered to read ROOT's own fundraiser page, they make it quite clear that the $25000 pays for the initial startup costs, and that their current business pulls in enough revenue to cover recurring costs. It pays the costs of people moving, the cost of setting up computers and streaming equipment, and all the one-time costs involved when an entire team moves to a new location and establishes a place for their business.
Well, all the more reason for me not to support the cause then. If they just pooled or saved their money for six months, they could easily afford themselves. And frankly, it not likely that them living in a new house somewhere on the west coast is going to add any significant value to me as a spectator.
Meh. Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings. Donating $5 so a bunch of healthy, fully capable grown men can move to their dream house seems a little silly to me personally, even if its a drop in the bucket. I'd rather give money to the Red Cross or buy Girl Scout cookies.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?
Hardly any. And you know why that is? Because it's a huge investment that simply doesn't pay off. The negatives outweigh the positives. What can you do with a teamhouse that you can't do without a teamhouse? Not much. "Content" isn't magically gunna produce itself.
Why would a team like Complexity that's been around for over a decade, and is active in lots of different genres, even shut down their gaming house? In 2011/2012, there was brief gaming house frenzy where everybody and their mother thought they needed one. I bet plenty of teams lost big chunks of cash before they realized it's simply not worth it.
Why not use the $ to fly out players to tournaments? To pay them an allowance of some type? Or even to send em to Korea for a bit?
Hardly any... No just leveling up the level of play of your whole team meaning they would win more meaning more money incoming in the long-term. Oh wait... I forgot that looking in the long-term is bad especially with E-sports.
Instead of having their own house. They should just buy a flat with 3-4 teams together, it would cost a lot less. But we don't know if any negociations between teams happened or will happen.
This is pretty lame hate, especially from someone involved as a journalist in the scene. I dislike that esports tends to be a charity and that people often end up having to beg, too, but the plain truth is that ROOT is full of top NA talent. Their players fill the Shoutcraft America tournament for a reason. If their current team were all players like EG's who have been around and growing fanbases since the game started (when it was simply easier to be relevant), they would easily have similar marketability. As it is their players are some of the most popular in the scene by recognition of both talent and personality.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?? This isn't pro football. Just becuase teams mark themselves as pro won't mean they have viable means of supporting themselves.
Donating money to Root isn't just supporting Root, its supporting foreign eSports in general. They need money to move forward. These aren't fortune 500 organizations we are talking about here. I will gladly donate to Root. Not just to help Catz but to help our foreign scene.
Lets put this perspective a bit. Where as eSports is growing as a whole, our foreign teams need a ton of help to get off their feet.
All startups raise capital somehow, and crowdsourcing it isn't a crime.
The issue is that Root is raising capital for an ongoing initiative that either a) isn't sustainable by strictly donations OR b) doesn't need crowdsourcing in the first place.
$25,000 is an odd number. It's not an insignificant amount, but it's definitely not enough money to feed or pay rent for a team of people for more than six to eight months. So what do they need the money for? What's the plan?
Do they expect stream ad revenue to magically spike, just because they are in a team house, and then decide to pool that additional ad revenue together in order to pay for the house?
Do they have sponsors lined up, contingent on them forming a team house? It's hard to imagine why a sponsor would care whether they are in a house or not.
Are they going to need another round of 'financing' *cough handouts cough* in eight to ten months to sustain themselves?
Or maybe (and most likely) they already each make enough individually to cover their own expenses month to month. And rather than save up for the cost of travel and moving themselves, they are calling on the community to foot the bill.
They have 15 players on their SC2 team. I don't know how many are planning moving to the team house, but $25,000 split between even 5 or 6 guys is not a lot of money.
I'd be more inclined to make a one-time donation to something singular and concrete — like a flight to an MLG or a new computer. Starting and maintaining a team house is an ongoing expense is something I can't support as 'an investor' or as a donor, without some kind of confidence they have an plan outside of suddenly winning more tournaments.
I'd imagine its for a down payment. I imagine they know exactly how much they're making monthly and what their budget can afford. The down payment can effect your mortgage payments. I'm buying a house in Jan. and I'm hoping to put 30k down.
I think I read somewhere it was for down payments.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?
Hardly any. And you know why that is? Because it's a huge investment that simply doesn't pay off. The negatives outweigh the positives. What can you do with a teamhouse that you can't do without a teamhouse? Not much. "Content" isn't magically gunna produce itself.
Why would a team like Complexity that's been around for over a decade, and is active in lots of different genres, even shut down their gaming house? In 2011/2012, there was brief gaming house frenzy where everybody and their mother thought they needed one. I bet plenty of teams lost big chunks of cash before they realized it's simply not worth it.
Why not use the $ to fly out players to tournaments? To pay them an allowance of some type? Or even to send em to Korea for a bit?
I agree with you. I can see where the advantages could be for a team. Its hard to say how foreign teams (EG) would preform without a team house in the picture. But, if their current results are any indicator of performance with the presence of a team house, I'd say it isn't worth it- you're right.
I think the biggest advantage comes from the image a team house portrays. Not so much the results a team expects to get from their players who live in one.
On May 03 2013 13:14 Nerski wrote: -Text- TLDR: If you don't use it right of course it's a waste, so the key is to use it right. NA side so far the only team that's made good use of their team house is EG which is why they still have one.
You mean the streaming schedule and the signing of Stephano and JD i guess? Not considering that, the team house did nothing imo.
After watching through the new episode of Meta. I'm afraid that the house will be a failure and waste of everyones time and money. I got the impression that Catz has absolutely no clue how to keep people practicing properly, it'll turn into a frathouse really quickly.
On May 02 2013 04:16 Glurkenspurk wrote: Didn't Richard Lewis have a rage enema against Catz before? It was pretty clear he'd eventually write a buttfrustrated blog post about it thinly disguised as a news article.
i know very little about this guy except his writing style seems uneducated, and this is also how i felt reading the excerpt, obvious nonsense, personal vendetta stuff
If I owned cadred.org I would fire this guy immediately. He doesn't even attempt to seem like it's an unbiased analysis, using sensationalist analogies and spurious logic.
And to all the people who are saying that a gaming house is not sustainable or whatever, so what? People can donate to keep the gaming house up for 1 more day if they want to. I can spend a dollar on a can of coke that will only last me 20 minutes. People can choose to support who they want with their dollar, and none of your own values apply to their money.
On May 04 2013 00:02 oOOoOphidian wrote: This is pretty lame hate, especially from someone involved as a journalist in the scene. I dislike that esports tends to be a charity and that people often end up having to beg, too, but the plain truth is that ROOT is full of top NA talent. Their players fill the Shoutcraft America tournament for a reason. If their current team were all players like EG's who have been around and growing fanbases since the game started (when it was simply easier to be relevant), they would easily have similar marketability. As it is their players are some of the most popular in the scene by recognition of both talent and personality.
the "begging" seems distasteful on the surface... but... many major pro North American sports teams get a free arena or stadium built for them to play in rent free.
their form of "begging" is vile ....because rather than directly asking real people for their own money they go after tax dollars.
so i say... Root Gaming should feel free to have as many "fund raising drives" as they see fit.
Root Gaming's form of fund raising is still 10,000X better than the Phoenix Coyotes or Florida Marlins methods of raising money.
A sustainable business should be able to support itself, if they can't earn their team house then it's hard to see how they'll maintain it, by paying for it e-sports fans are basically subsidising ROOT's mediocrity.
On May 04 2013 03:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Root Gaming's form of fund raising is still 10,000X better than the Phoenix Coyotes or Florida Marlins methods of raising money.
This is the best point I've seen made, and a much better comparison than my publicly funded movies example. Two thumbs up.
Richard raises some interesting points but i think he completely misses the idea of Good Will being a finite asset. On TL we often speak internally about how the biggest asset we have is the trust of our users. This is one of the most important factors in both keeping the site alive, and how we make decisions. Good Will "cost" is also one of the main drivers behind the reason that in 10+ years we've never asked for a donation (we can play semantics on pay-what-you-want on Liquid Rising if you want). Whats even more interesting is that you suspect you have large good will capital, you can "use" some of it in exposing sponsors (say in TSL with Razer, when Liquid signed barracuda and dozens of people wrote to them explaining why it was so good) and turn that into actual money. There's lots of examples of trying to generate good will in the scene like when Sundance gave all IPL5 ticket purchasers a discount....Beyond the obvious financial implications of having those attendees come to your event, there is some "he's a nice guy for doing that" generated amongst everyone else who had no intention of going to either. Actually tracking good will is a bit of a gut feeling i guess...so it's pretty murky first year jerk off economics.
The point (or theory) is that there is a general good will supply in the community that is expended as people fuck up...look at the kickstarter esports documentary scene.... Could we really expect fans to donate the way they did in the last year with literally zero returns? The same i expect to be true if Root screws this one up, so it doesn't matter if they are "worthy"....The scene will speak. Because the Sc2 scene isn't growing exponentially quickly anymore, Root could/would be punished by the scene simply by not being able to crowd source it anymore and would probably have a pretty bad name when going after additional sponsorship.
I think community members are smart enough to analyze risk/reward when they make these donations to something as (relatively) worthless as a gaming house in the first place.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?? This isn't pro football. Just becuase teams mark themselves as pro won't mean they have viable means of supporting themselves.
Donating money to Root isn't just supporting Root, its supporting foreign eSports in general. They need money to move forward. These aren't fortune 500 organizations we are talking about here. I will gladly donate to Root. Not just to help Catz but to help our foreign scene.
Lets put this perspective a bit. Where as eSports is growing as a whole, our foreign teams need a ton of help to get off their feet.
All startups raise capital somehow, and crowdsourcing it isn't a crime.
The issue is that Root is raising capital for an ongoing initiative that either a) isn't sustainable by strictly donations OR b) doesn't need crowdsourcing in the first place.
$25,000 is an odd number. It's not an insignificant amount, but it's definitely not enough money to feed or pay rent for a team of people for more than six to eight months. So what do they need the money for? What's the plan?
Do they expect stream ad revenue to magically spike, just because they are in a team house, and then decide to pool that additional ad revenue together in order to pay for the house?
Do they have sponsors lined up, contingent on them forming a team house? It's hard to imagine why a sponsor would care whether they are in a house or not.
Are they going to need another round of 'financing' *cough handouts cough* in eight to ten months to sustain themselves?
Or maybe (and most likely) they already each make enough individually to cover their own expenses month to month. And rather than save up for the cost of travel and moving themselves, they are calling on the community to foot the bill.
They have 15 players on their SC2 team. I don't know how many are planning moving to the team house, but $25,000 split between even 5 or 6 guys is not a lot of money.
I'd be more inclined to make a one-time donation to something singular and concrete — like a flight to an MLG or a new computer. Starting and maintaining a team house is an ongoing expense is something I can't support as 'an investor' or as a donor, without some kind of confidence they have an plan outside of suddenly winning more tournaments.
Well, if you bothered to read ROOT's own fundraiser page, they make it quite clear that the $25000 pays for the initial startup costs, and that their current business pulls in enough revenue to cover recurring costs. It pays the costs of people moving, the cost of setting up computers and streaming equipment, and all the one-time costs involved when an entire team moves to a new location and establishes a place for their business.
Well, all the more reason for me not to support the cause then. If they just pooled or saved their money for six months, they could easily afford themselves. And frankly, it not likely that them living in a new house somewhere on the west coast is going to add any significant value to me as a spectator.
Meh. Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings. Donating $5 so a bunch of healthy, fully capable grown men can move to their dream house seems a little silly to me personally, even if its a drop in the bucket. I'd rather give money to the Red Cross or buy Girl Scout cookies.
Well...good for you? I don't really see why you felt the need to rant and rave about a fundraiser you didn't want to give money to...must be a killjoy when kids are trying to go on grad trips.
This whole topic is really interesting and I've not had so much of a problem with the ROOT fundraiser, but this new donation to player thing in general. I think its OK to have it done on a tournament here and there...or for people who put up a vast amount of content and do contests etc have a subscribe button on Twitch.. Where i have a problem and actually find it kind of unsettling is some of these young twitch streamers who are basically giving up school, work, social things, all because they found out if they are entertaining enough they can move into an apartment and stream 8 hours a day and lots of people will donate money to them everyday. I realize this is a small number of people, but I think its bad on both ends...I'm going to use some of the WoW streamers like Reckful and Sodapoppin in particular. They aren't professional gamers, they aren't producing general gaming content. They are literally just giving up everything and making bank on MIND BLOWING amounts of cash donations every day. Is their stream entertaining? sure. But you have to wonder who is funding these continual donations and for younger people like Sodapoppin for example...is there more sinister intentions to these donators to connect with the streamers? I mean some of the size of the donations are hundreds of dollars, sometimes more than that..I don't know kids that have that type of money to blow, but there are a lot of rich creepers out there on the internet...ugh I don't know. I also find it kind of wrong that they are asking for so much money from people on a regular basis when there are so many charities and people that need REAL help, and also streams that have done for charity and made a real impact (the speed gaming for cancer comes to mind). All this is really strange and it doesn't feel right. They aren't going to be sustainable forever, they are putting off school or work and other valuable things for the promise of nothing in the future. You can definitely apply this to the SC2 streamers and ROOT to SOME extent. I think the TL guys have been right that if its a one time thing its probably OK and you should trust the viewers judgement. ROOTs intentions are to grow and eventually pick up sponsors and actually make cash like an EG or Complexity. Do I think they will or do I agree with it? doesnt really matter, and I think again the TL guys are right saying they will hurt themselves if they continue to fund their lifestyle/jobs off the community only because not only will the donate pool diminish, but it will make them look bad to businesses as well. Anyway, I don't think people should throw so much hate to the writer, its his opinion blog and its not like he made a terrible point....look how much valid discussion it has prompted.
The article raises some interesting points, but I don't agree with all of them. Root is not a tax deductible charity. The disclosure rules that apply to such charities does not apply to Root. The tax benefits given to the donors does not apply to those who donate to Root. The people making the donations are well aware that they get no tax deductions from their donations. Thus, the analogy with charitable organizations fail.
Those who donate to Root likely want to improve the e-sports scene. It is effectively a donation without any tax benefits. The donors want to improve NA e-sports or Root gaming in particular. While I would never make a donation under these terms, we live in a society where people are free to make decisions. Given my background, like the article's author, I would not donate money to an organization that provides limited disclosures that are not audited and certified by an independent auditor. However, doing something like this costs money, and in the case of an organization with limited resources, these costs might be too burdensome. Thus, we the prospective donors, have the ability to choose whether we want to donate or not. Personally, all my donations go to helping the poor via properly vetted charitable organizations. Donating to e-sports or organizations with limited disclosures is something I would never do. Nonetheless, others don't share my concerns or priorities. Thus, while I share some of the author's concerns, I disagree with his conclusions.
On May 04 2013 03:20 Kennigit wrote: Richard raises some interesting points but i think he completely misses the idea of Good Will being a finite asset. On TL we often speak internally about how the biggest asset we have is the trust of our users. This is one of the most important factors in both keeping the site alive, and how we make decisions. Good Will "cost" is also one of the main drivers behind the reason that in 10+ years we've never asked for a donation (we can play semantics on pay-what-you-want on Liquid Rising if you want). Whats even more interesting is that you suspect you have large good will capital, you can "use" some of it in exposing sponsors (say in TSL with Razer, when Liquid signed barracuda and dozens of people wrote to them explaining why it was so good) and turn that into actual money. There's lots of examples of trying to generate good will in the scene like when Sundance gave all IPL5 ticket purchasers a discount....Beyond the obvious financial implications of having those attendees come to your event, there is some "he's a nice guy for doing that" generated amongst everyone else who had no intention of going to either. Actually tracking good will is a bit of a gut feeling i guess...so it's pretty murky first year jerk off economics.
The point (or theory) is that there is a general good will supply in the community that is expended as people fuck up...look at the kickstarter esports documentary scene.... Could we really expect fans to donate the way they did in the last year with literally zero returns? The same i expect to be true if Root screws this one up, so it doesn't matter if they are "worthy"....The scene will speak. Because the Sc2 scene isn't growing exponentially quickly anymore, Root could/would be punished by the scene simply by not being able to crowd source it anymore and would probably have a pretty bad name when going after additional sponsorship.
I think community members are smart enough to analyze risk/reward when they make these donations to something as (relatively) worthless as a gaming house in the first place.
editing for clarity.
Good and valid points. But I feel like the language used by Richard is the bigger issue. He demonizes ROOT and also acts as though they are completely irrelevant in the SC2 scene. This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
When you think about it, they have a lot of players in the WCS and they also have a lot of players in Shoutcraft AM. I feel as though, if the north american scene were more isolated from the other scenes from a tournament standpoint we would see ROOT doing really really well and better than they are now as an organization.
I think that there is a lot of good will in this ROOT house, and if it doesn't do well then that sucks. But if does even remotely well or moderately better than the EG house or MoW house we could see ROOT really take advantage.
Honestly I view donations exactly the way I view tipping a waiter. They give you shitty service? Don't tip. Are they giving you something you enjoy and want to be kind? Give them a tip. (Usually I do 15% to waiters but that is irrelevant.) I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about.
On May 04 2013 04:03 KaiserKieran wrote: Honestly I view donations exactly the way I view tipping a waiter. They give you shitty service? Don't tip. Are they giving you something you enjoy and want to be kind? Give them a tip. (Usually I do 15% to waiters but that is irrelevant.) I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about.
There shouldn't be any. How this comes as a big surprise to some people is strange to me. The foreign SC2 scene is not blossoming into some booming industry. It has the potential to, but its still very young in the process. If your'e not a fan of Root don't donate to them. But, donating to any foreign sc2 team for any sort of reason isn't just helping their team, but the foreign scene in general. This is obviously under the pretense its going to a cause to help expand their teams basis.
On May 03 2013 02:10 Diddywhop wrote: How many teams out there, especially foreign, have the means to support their players with a team house?? This isn't pro football. Just becuase teams mark themselves as pro won't mean they have viable means of supporting themselves.
Donating money to Root isn't just supporting Root, its supporting foreign eSports in general. They need money to move forward. These aren't fortune 500 organizations we are talking about here. I will gladly donate to Root. Not just to help Catz but to help our foreign scene.
Lets put this perspective a bit. Where as eSports is growing as a whole, our foreign teams need a ton of help to get off their feet.
All startups raise capital somehow, and crowdsourcing it isn't a crime.
The issue is that Root is raising capital for an ongoing initiative that either a) isn't sustainable by strictly donations OR b) doesn't need crowdsourcing in the first place.
$25,000 is an odd number. It's not an insignificant amount, but it's definitely not enough money to feed or pay rent for a team of people for more than six to eight months. So what do they need the money for? What's the plan?
Do they expect stream ad revenue to magically spike, just because they are in a team house, and then decide to pool that additional ad revenue together in order to pay for the house?
Do they have sponsors lined up, contingent on them forming a team house? It's hard to imagine why a sponsor would care whether they are in a house or not.
Are they going to need another round of 'financing' *cough handouts cough* in eight to ten months to sustain themselves?
Or maybe (and most likely) they already each make enough individually to cover their own expenses month to month. And rather than save up for the cost of travel and moving themselves, they are calling on the community to foot the bill.
They have 15 players on their SC2 team. I don't know how many are planning moving to the team house, but $25,000 split between even 5 or 6 guys is not a lot of money.
I'd be more inclined to make a one-time donation to something singular and concrete — like a flight to an MLG or a new computer. Starting and maintaining a team house is an ongoing expense is something I can't support as 'an investor' or as a donor, without some kind of confidence they have an plan outside of suddenly winning more tournaments.
Well, if you bothered to read ROOT's own fundraiser page, they make it quite clear that the $25000 pays for the initial startup costs, and that their current business pulls in enough revenue to cover recurring costs. It pays the costs of people moving, the cost of setting up computers and streaming equipment, and all the one-time costs involved when an entire team moves to a new location and establishes a place for their business.
Well, all the more reason for me not to support the cause then. If they just pooled or saved their money for six months, they could easily afford themselves. And frankly, it not likely that them living in a new house somewhere on the west coast is going to add any significant value to me as a spectator.
Meh. Sorry to hurt anyone's feelings. Donating $5 so a bunch of healthy, fully capable grown men can move to their dream house seems a little silly to me personally, even if its a drop in the bucket. I'd rather give money to the Red Cross or buy Girl Scout cookies.
Well...good for you? I don't really see why you felt the need to rant and rave about a fundraiser you didn't want to give money to...must be a killjoy when kids are trying to go on grad trips.
Hey, I didn't start the topic or the thread. Who's ranting and raving?
I've also gone on record saying it's unfair to single Root Gaming out. Crowd sourcing is blurring the line between entrepreneurship and entitlement culture. And there's very little accountability in some instances.
For example, if Root fails to move into a team house, are they going to reimburse donors? As Kennigit points out above, Root is actually assuming a pretty big risk. They've hit their fundraising target, if they don't follow through, they're screwed.
Speaking of grad trips, if Catz actually came to my house, knocked on my door and asked me for money, than sure, maybe I'd chip in ten bucks.
On May 04 2013 03:55 ZeromuS wrote: This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
Could you explain the metrics you would use to come to such a conclusion?
Reddit baby! Didn't you know that reddit is the only real reflection of the SC2 community?
It's seriously baffling that people could suggest something like this. I love root, but teams and leagues are just not all equal. NASL Season 1 is just as good as Code S guys.
On May 04 2013 03:55 ZeromuS wrote: This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
Could you explain the metrics you would use to come to such a conclusion?
Reddit baby! Didn't you know that reddit is the only real reflection of the SC2 community?
It's seriously baffling that people could suggest something like this. I love root, but teams and leagues are just not all equal. NASL Season 1 is just as good as Code S guys.
I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent. There is still a clear difference in numbers, but root team members regularly draw anywhere from 500 viewers to 4 to 5k on good days. Comparing the teams doesn't really make sense because sources of funding how they are run etc. is vastly different.
On May 04 2013 03:55 ZeromuS wrote: This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
Could you explain the metrics you would use to come to such a conclusion?
I mean with regards to how visible they are in the scene.
With regards to foreign, non korean players i think ROOT does a very good job of advertising themselves. Look at how much they stream, and the kind of support they received for their gaming house. I think its safe to say that the team promotes itself very well and is quite popular in the foreign scene.
I guess, I should have said within the North American, or foreigner scene. If you exclude the korean players and korean scene from EG and TL ROOT gets their name out there just as well and is represented in tournaments as well.
I don't want to imply that ROOT is more popular or just as popular as EG and TL necessarily, but if you look at results within the foreign scene amongst foreigners ROOT is pretty consistent in placing well in tournaments/teamleagues and promoting themselves regularly.
Again, within the north american scene being key there. I don't have access to specific numbers. But ROOT players are streaming just as much as TL and EG players (in general). They do well in teamleagues amongst the foreign teams, and they continue to have a strong showing in regional tournaments. For example WCS this year and last as well as with the upcoming shoutcraft tournament. ROOT players like catz also participate in community events (like TLAttack and SotG/Meta) just as much as your usual EG and TL counterparts in these talk shows. Although EG might have an edge with ITG since it is a 3 person EG lineup on that show.
Are all ROOT players skilled and relevant in that sense when compared to the EG/TL lineups as a whole? No, not at all. The korean EG and TL players will always mop up the ROOT players. But if you look at the foreign players I would say they are pretty even. If you had a foreigner lineup TL vs ROOT, I feel like ROOT might have a deeper currently active player pool to choose from and win out. They are far far more relevant than FXO NA and other foreigner teams that don't have big pockets. Hell, I feel like ROOT retains much more relevancy to the community than even Complexity does at the moment.
I am not speaking about relevancy in terms of pure skill but in exposure and how they approach the community. I feel like no other team aside from EG or TL could garner the same support for a teamhouse in the way ROOT did last month. This is the kind of relevancy I am talking about.
On May 04 2013 03:55 ZeromuS wrote: This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
Could you explain the metrics you would use to come to such a conclusion?
Reddit baby! Didn't you know that reddit is the only real reflection of the SC2 community?
It's seriously baffling that people could suggest something like this. I love root, but teams and leagues are just not all equal. NASL Season 1 is just as good as Code S guys.
And I know they aren't the same but thats kind of the point. ROOT speaks to the foreigner fans in a way TL and EG can't quite. They push for North American scene growth and you see a lot of investment into that. While they have picked up some koreans, their main focus is not on Korea necessarily in the same way EG and TL. Granted, EG/TL focusing on the korean scene and that visibility is extremely intelligent and I think its the best thing moving forward. They are more relevent to StarCraft 2 as a whole in this way. But my point here, and I hope my ramblings don't have it get lost is that if you look at North American teams and North American players, it would be wrong to say that EG and TL are so so so far ahead of relevancy that there is no question that ROOT is not relevant.
I think this whole good will thing was a little short sighted, I mean, picking an expensive place to live and setting up infrastructure from the ground up is an immense task that cannot be done on donations alone. This is why I didn't donate, I don't have pockets deep enough to contribute to that kind of expansion and exploration. I think its a good goal and I hope they get there but I can't afford to put my money into that kind of good will project. To bash on ROOT for being ROOT though in the way Richard Lewis did is a bit of poor journalism. I mean, the whole motivation behind the house is to try and motivate and grow the NA scene, so for a team that focuses on NA and does well within NA to do so makes the idea of the team house a good idea (even if it isn't implemented in the best way).
On May 04 2013 03:55 ZeromuS wrote: This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
Could you explain the metrics you would use to come to such a conclusion?
Reddit baby! Didn't you know that reddit is the only real reflection of the SC2 community?
It's seriously baffling that people could suggest something like this. I love root, but teams and leagues are just not all equal. NASL Season 1 is just as good as Code S guys.
I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent. There is still a clear difference in numbers, but root team members regularly draw anywhere from 500 viewers to 4 to 5k on good days. Comparing the teams doesn't really make sense because sources of funding how they are run etc. is vastly different.
This brings us back to the question he asked before though. Are stream views really a solid metric by which to judge whether a team is "relevant" to North American SC2?
There is a finite supply of stream viewers most of whom are hardcore SC2 content fiends. EG dominates the stream viewing population on a daily basis; as I type this there are 3 EG players and 2 ROOT players featured on TL live streams. EG has a combined total of 9500 viewers whereas root has a combined total of 159.
Liquid players seem to stream less but are always competing in top tier tournaments from MLG to Dreamhack to GSL. I just don't understand how anyone can take an objective glance at these teams and how "relevant" they are to SC2 and come to any conclusion other than the fact that EG and TL are in a totally other dimension from ROOT both to the casual viewer and to the international viewer.
There is a strange sort of feedback loop effect that happens in communities that are as isolated as the hardcore SC2 community is which distorts perception of how outsiders or even the engaged non-hardcore view things. It is helpful to remember that and to try to gain some perspective when making judgments about objective reality.
On May 04 2013 03:55 ZeromuS wrote: This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
Could you explain the metrics you would use to come to such a conclusion?
Reddit baby! Didn't you know that reddit is the only real reflection of the SC2 community?
It's seriously baffling that people could suggest something like this. I love root, but teams and leagues are just not all equal. NASL Season 1 is just as good as Code S guys.
I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent. There is still a clear difference in numbers, but root team members regularly draw anywhere from 500 viewers to 4 to 5k on good days. Comparing the teams doesn't really make sense because sources of funding how they are run etc. is vastly different.
This brings us back to the question he asked before though. Are stream views really a solid metric by which to judge whether a team is "relevant" to North American SC2?
There is a finite supply of stream viewers most of whom are hardcore SC2 content fiends. EG dominates the stream viewing population on a daily basis; as I type this there are 3 EG players and 2 ROOT players featured on TL live streams. EG has a combined total of 9500 viewers whereas root has a combined total of 159.
Liquid players seem to stream less but are always competing in top tier tournaments from MLG to Dreamhack to GSL. I just don't understand how anyone can take an objective glance at these teams and how "relevant" they are to SC2 and come to any conclusion other than the fact that EG and TL are in a totally other dimension from ROOT both to the casual viewer and to the international viewer.
There is a strange sort of feedback loop effect that happens in communities that are as isolated as the hardcore SC2 community is which distorts perception of how outsiders or even the engaged non-hardcore view things. It is helpful to remember that and to try to gain some perspective when making judgments about objective reality.
Right, good point. I agree that EG does get more viewers as a marketing machine. But when players like Catz and Minigun stream for example they pull in good viewership similar in number to incontrol and suppy. Idra has crazy high stream viewers that go beyond any other stream short of Jaedong's on a regular basis. I am sure that if Machine was to stream he wouldn't pull in too too many more viewers than other ROOT players either.
I think I initially expressed my position poorly :/
On May 04 2013 03:55 ZeromuS wrote: This isn't true. ROOT is perhaps just are relevant as EG and TL within the North American scene.
Could you explain the metrics you would use to come to such a conclusion?
Reddit baby! Didn't you know that reddit is the only real reflection of the SC2 community?
It's seriously baffling that people could suggest something like this. I love root, but teams and leagues are just not all equal. NASL Season 1 is just as good as Code S guys.
I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent. There is still a clear difference in numbers, but root team members regularly draw anywhere from 500 viewers to 4 to 5k on good days. Comparing the teams doesn't really make sense because sources of funding how they are run etc. is vastly different.
This brings us back to the question he asked before though. Are stream views really a solid metric by which to judge whether a team is "relevant" to North American SC2?
There is a finite supply of stream viewers most of whom are hardcore SC2 content fiends. EG dominates the stream viewing population on a daily basis; as I type this there are 3 EG players and 2 ROOT players featured on TL live streams. EG has a combined total of 9500 viewers whereas root has a combined total of 159.
Liquid players seem to stream less but are always competing in top tier tournaments from MLG to Dreamhack to GSL. I just don't understand how anyone can take an objective glance at these teams and how "relevant" they are to SC2 and come to any conclusion other than the fact that EG and TL are in a totally other dimension from ROOT both to the casual viewer and to the international viewer.
There is a strange sort of feedback loop effect that happens in communities that are as isolated as the hardcore SC2 community is which distorts perception of how outsiders or even the engaged non-hardcore view things. It is helpful to remember that and to try to gain some perspective when making judgments about objective reality.
Right, good point. I agree that EG does get more viewers as a marketing machine. But when players like Catz and Minigun stream for example they pull in good viewership similar in number to incontrol and suppy. Idra has crazy high stream viewers that go beyond any other stream short of Jaedong's on a regular basis. I am sure that if Machine was to stream he wouldn't pull in too too many more viewers than other ROOT players either.
I think I initially expressed my position poorly :/
Demuslim is also EG and draws in more than Idra, by a substantial amount most often.
And both Idra and Demuslim draw 2-3x more viewers than even the most popular of the Root players. (on average)
I would agree that most of them are on-par with iNcontroL in numbers.
On May 04 2013 06:03 Nerski wrote: I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent.
Who is root's most popular player. Catz? Is he even half as popular as HuK Hero Incontrol jaedong taeja tlo ...even demuslim? You could argue equal to demuslim. You can say players are equally likeable or something but they are just not equal in popularity. At all.
These words you are using "nearly" and "to an extent" try to obfuscate something that is just wrong.
On May 04 2013 06:03 Nerski wrote: I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent.
Who is root's most popular player. Catz? Is he even half as popular as HuK Hero Incontrol jaedong taeja tlo ...even demuslim? You could argue equal to demuslim. You can say players are equally likeable or something but they are just not equal in popularity. At all.
While this is true, I think the original intention is being lost.
ROOT is relevant enough that they shouldn't be equated to a beggar on the street asking for money. This is where I feel the written piece starts to lose its way. They are popular enough that I think they deserve more than that level of treatment from a piece of "journalism" on their ROOT house. If anything its more of an editorial that won't get a "letters to the editor" kind of response ever on Richard Lewis' website.
Don't get me wrong. This is a very stupid article but just not for any of the reasons listed in this thread. Richard Lewis imposes a subjective and, frankly, non-sequitur moral frame onto a subject that has little to do with morality. He is also has a relatively narrow understanding of consumer economics which he misguidedly tries to bring to bear to argue that because private businesses don't see value in a product that it has no value.
If it makes people feel good to throw money at ROOT with no real guidelines or expectations other than some vague stated goals then let them do it. The idea that people are being scammed or tricked somehow or that this is an insidious guilt trip which people simply cannot resist simply reveals that he has a very low opinion of the community.
In my eyes this situation has more in common with people trying to stop Community from being cancelled than it has with some sort of sinister money grab or scam.
Until the fans get wise to what this is e-sports can’t be professional. Professionals earn their living, it’s not given to them. Anything else is just garbage.
His conclusion, quoted here, is why the article should just be ignored as a troll (which it is). This amounts to saying "in order to be a professional you must earn money. However, I will define what constitutes 'earned' versus 'given' using arbitrary criteria that suit my argument."
This is some fairly transparent trolling but he got 15+ pages going strong here so I guess it worked.
On May 04 2013 06:58 Cyrak wrote: In my eyes this situation has more in common with people trying to stop Community from being cancelled than it has with some sort of sinister money grab or scam.
On May 04 2013 06:58 Cyrak wrote: Don't get me wrong. This is a very stupid article but just not for any of the reasons listed in this thread. Richard Lewis imposes a subjective and, frankly, non-sequitur moral frame onto a subject that has little to do with morality. He is also has a relatively narrow understanding of consumer economics which he misguidedly tries to bring to bear to argue that because private businesses don't see value in a product that it has no value.
I would love it if Root, instead of having a fundraiser, did some kind of regular content creation or show like TL Attacks to improve the profile of their players, boost their stream numbers and get more sponsors. Sometimes they have impromptu practice sessions that are actually really entertaining or informative.
And it kills me that a player like Vibe isn't more popular. He's one of the best zergs in North America.
I guess what worries me about the idea of a team house is that it's doesn't necessarily address the issues that have always seemed to be Root's problem, which is a lack of funding through sponsorship. And it should be a sign that even teams as big as TL or EG occasionally share resources/players to support a competitive team, or move their team to a state like Arizona where rent and housing is dirt cheap.
It feels like they're trying to sing before they can hum.
If people want to spend money on something let them fucking do it. Other people's money is not your business unless it was stolen or gained illegally through other means. (Or spent on something illegal)
If I ask people on the street for a quarter for 8 hours I could probably make more than minimum wage in California. Are those people missing their hard earned quarter? Probably not or they would've asked for it back or not given it.
Same goes with the e-sports community, I subbed to JP for 5 bucks a month because I support what he does, 5 bucks is a pack of cigerettes, I can go without it. Will he spend the 5 dollars on his shows? No clue, not my business, it could be on crack for all I know, but it's my money and I wanted to subscribe to his channel as a way to support someone I like.
Root is a NA team! I think we should all support NA teams and players to make the scene grow. If they fail afterwards because they are unsustainable, that's a separate issue. Almost all businesses start off with funding/loans...
On May 04 2013 06:03 Nerski wrote: I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent.
Who is root's most popular player. Catz? Is he even half as popular as HuK Hero Incontrol jaedong taeja tlo ...even demuslim? You could argue equal to demuslim. You can say players are equally likeable or something but they are just not equal in popularity. At all.
These words you are using "nearly" and "to an extent" try to obfuscate something that is just wrong.
How is he equal to demuslim? How is demuslim less popular than Huk or Hero? Demuslim gets consistent 8k viewer counts, pretty sure he's way more popular.
On May 04 2013 06:03 Nerski wrote: I think a better argument for this guy would of been that the root players are nearly just as popular as EG / TL to an extent.
Who is root's most popular player. Catz? Is he even half as popular as HuK Hero Incontrol jaedong taeja tlo ...even demuslim? You could argue equal to demuslim. You can say players are equally likeable or something but they are just not equal in popularity. At all.
These words you are using "nearly" and "to an extent" try to obfuscate something that is just wrong.
How is he equal to demuslim? How is demuslim less popular than Huk or Hero? Demuslim gets consistent 8k viewer counts, pretty sure he's way more popular.
If you believe demuslim is more popular than huk, you should absolutely represent him for his next contract negotiation with EG.
From the bits I've read, its a bad article and he's a bad writer, so I won't put myself through reading it. On the subject of the viability of the root house as a whole, I think its gonna be a disaster, but I can't blame catz. You can't dedicate your life to being root in its current form. He may as well just go work at a bank and make money that way if he's gonna be satisfied with where he is. As such, it makes sense for catz to try to essentially go all-in by trying to make a successful team house and have a successful media presence in what is going to be the center of SC2 esports in America, SF.
The only reason I like Catz is the fact that he's Peruvian, but aside from that, he and root as a whole really bother me. Their entire existence is based on silliness and I dunno, Kiwikaki was the only truly good player or person. "lolproxyhatch" just doesn't do it for me. I hope the house is successful and I think catz is assuming that if he can raise enough money for it to get going, sponsors will hop on board and give it long term survival. But that's a big risk. And yet its a risk he needs to take if he ever wants root to be anything more than a glorified Bnet clan.
ROOT reminds me of all the teams we used to make back in WC3. We all put so much effort into the game, but in the end we weren't able to get sponsorships because companies did not want to invest in the WC3 scene, even if we could give a good amount of exposure.
CatZ is kind of stuck in that phase, but if they have a team house they have a nice chance to move forward at least 1 step. If they don't do something drastic, they run the risk of never improving.
They don't have huge sponsorship to allow them to live in a team house, so he pulls this stunt hoping something can come from it.
Nobody is forced to give him money, no harm is coming from it.
Also, this writer is bad... Reading through that crap was painful. I don't think anyone should take any of his information seriously.
Wish ROOT the best of luck, but honestly I won't follow too closely =(
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
In my opinion it is not a great move to basically ask their fans for the money. I mean, everyone can do with his money like he pleases, so if someone wants to donate to them no problem. I also think fund raising is a great way for charity or non-profit organizations (red cross, etc.) but this is more like a company asking for free money.
If the gaming house is such a great idea that helps them put out more content, get better results, better exposure, etc, why don't they ask their sponsors or some kind of investor? So either they never asked, because they thought it was easier fro them to get basically free money from their fans or they asked and nobody wanted to give them the money, because they could not explain what the benefits for the sponsor/investor would be.
Then kickstarter.com, and fundraisiing somehow devalues and lowers the value of the event/team? This guy is a little too much of a shitstarter for my liking...How about some ppl write controversial articles, not to start any reasonable topics, but because they want ppl to look at it, no matter who they step over. That in my eyes is journalism in its most base and degrading form and he should take a look at himself before critisizing ROOT.
The article's a bit harsh and I feel fans can spend their money any way they want. However, I feel investing in a semi-pro team like Root is far from the best way to promote eSports/NA. It'll just turn into a frat house and they'll continue to be irrelevant on the international stage.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
eh, what data would you use to measure popularity? I would say stream numbers is a good place to start. Demu streamed nearly 8 hours a day last month while he had more numbers than anyone else on twitch (for sc2). I would say at the moment he's very popular.
I don't understand why everyone is so upset if an upcoming team has a fundraiser to help them participate in more events and have a better practice enviorement and such. It's fucking ridicolous how the SC community can get so whiny about silly things such as this. It's not like they stole the money, people gave it to them so what the fuck is the problem?
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
eh, what data would you use to measure popularity? I would say stream numbers is a good place to start. Demu streamed nearly 8 hours a day last month while he had more numbers than anyone else on twitch (for sc2). I would say at the moment he's very popular.
to break it down:
Demuslim Has had good stream numbers for a few months, but its just the hardcore fans who know him (people who watch personal streams are already "hardcore")
Huk Most popular/well known foreigner for the first half of WoL Most seasons in CodeS as a foreigner 2 MLG titles, only foreigner to win an MLG with many koreans If you ask ANY person on the street whether he knows a starcraft player he will either say IDRA or HUK (If he knows one)
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
eh, what data would you use to measure popularity? I would say stream numbers is a good place to start. Demu streamed nearly 8 hours a day last month while he had more numbers than anyone else on twitch (for sc2). I would say at the moment he's very popular.
to break it down:
Demuslim Has had good stream numbers for a few months, but its just the hardcore fans who know him (people who watch personal streams are already "hardcore")
Huk Most popular/well known foreigner for the first half of WoL Most seasons in CodeS as a foreigner 2 MLG titles, only foreigner to win an MLG with many koreans If you ask ANY person on the street whether he knows a starcraft player he will either say IDRA or HUK (If he knows one)
There should be a distinction made between now and the past. I'm an avid twitch watcher and I haven't seen huk stream in ages. I also can't remember the last time he won something. This game is constantly changing. Being a legend once upon a time won't make you a legend forever. Just ask MVP. How fast were his 5 gsl victories forgotten?
Idra on the other hand is a special case. His fan following has not changed since the start. A remarkable feat if you consider he enjoyed his biggest victories at the beginning of wol.
Who knows what people on the street would say? I would say demu. So, do the study and get back to us with the numbers.
On May 02 2013 04:00 Benjamin99 wrote: Actually he do got a point. Is it morally and ethical correctly for a professional esport organisation to ask the fans for money? I don't know but its defiantly a point to be made
Ask St. Pauli about that (professional football team in Germany that needed funding from fans to survive).
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
eh, what data would you use to measure popularity? I would say stream numbers is a good place to start. Demu streamed nearly 8 hours a day last month while he had more numbers than anyone else on twitch (for sc2). I would say at the moment he's very popular.
to break it down:
Demuslim Has had good stream numbers for a few months, but its just the hardcore fans who know him (people who watch personal streams are already "hardcore")
Huk Most popular/well known foreigner for the first half of WoL Most seasons in CodeS as a foreigner 2 MLG titles, only foreigner to win an MLG with many koreans If you ask ANY person on the street whether he knows a starcraft player he will either say IDRA or HUK (If he knows one)
There should be a distinction made between now and the past. I'm an avid twitch watcher and I haven't seen huk stream in ages. I also can't remember the last time he won something. This game is constantly changing. Being a legend once upon a time won't make you a legend forever. Just ask MVP. How fast were his 5 gsl victories forgotten?
what. im gonna go with, not yet.
On May 04 2013 19:20 KAmaKAsa wrote: I don't understand why everyone is so upset if an upcoming team has a fundraiser to help them participate in more events and have a better practice enviorement and such. It's fucking ridicolous how the SC community can get so whiny about silly things such as this. It's not like they stole the money, people gave it to them so what the fuck is the problem?
from my PoV they can do whatever they want, people can donate if they want etc. my only problem is that i dont know how likely it is for the gaming house to continue, if the funding is crowd sourced. now maybe its the case that catz has secured enough funding from sponsors to keep the house going, it was just the high original outlay he couldnt cover, and thats fine. but its not unfair, from an outsider perspective, to question the likelyhood of a charity case to be a long term venture.
im not saying this needs an article written about it, its just a fair question.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
i think somebody is getting a stressball for christmas this year.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
eh, what data would you use to measure popularity? I would say stream numbers is a good place to start. Demu streamed nearly 8 hours a day last month while he had more numbers than anyone else on twitch (for sc2). I would say at the moment he's very popular.
to break it down:
Demuslim Has had good stream numbers for a few months, but its just the hardcore fans who know him (people who watch personal streams are already "hardcore")
Huk Most popular/well known foreigner for the first half of WoL Most seasons in CodeS as a foreigner 2 MLG titles, only foreigner to win an MLG with many koreans If you ask ANY person on the street whether he knows a starcraft player he will either say IDRA or HUK (If he knows one)
There should be a distinction made between now and the past. I'm an avid twitch watcher and I haven't seen huk stream in ages. I also can't remember the last time he won something. This game is constantly changing. Being a legend once upon a time won't make you a legend forever. Just ask MVP. How fast were his 5 gsl victories forgotten?
what. im gonna go with, not yet.
And yet if you follow the gsl, flash, innovation, byun....and others get all the hype. And not one of them has even 1 gsl title. If mvp doesn't requalify he might be forgotten forever and when Flash wins 1 gsl everyone will be chanting his name. Hero today. Nobody tomorrow.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
eh, what data would you use to measure popularity? I would say stream numbers is a good place to start. Demu streamed nearly 8 hours a day last month while he had more numbers than anyone else on twitch (for sc2). I would say at the moment he's very popular.
to break it down:
Demuslim Has had good stream numbers for a few months, but its just the hardcore fans who know him (people who watch personal streams are already "hardcore")
Huk Most popular/well known foreigner for the first half of WoL Most seasons in CodeS as a foreigner 2 MLG titles, only foreigner to win an MLG with many koreans If you ask ANY person on the street whether he knows a starcraft player he will either say IDRA or HUK (If he knows one)
There should be a distinction made between now and the past. I'm an avid twitch watcher and I haven't seen huk stream in ages. I also can't remember the last time he won something. This game is constantly changing. Being a legend once upon a time won't make you a legend forever. Just ask MVP. How fast were his 5 gsl victories forgotten?
what. im gonna go with, not yet.
And yet if you follow the gsl, flash, innovation, byun....and others get all the hype. And not one of them has even 1 gsl title. If mvp doesn't requalify he might be forgotten forever and when Flash wins 1 gsl everyone will be chanting his name. Hero today. Nobody tomorrow.
You do realize MVP is playing in WCS EU not KR? And that he already progressed to Ro16? Definately not forgotten, it's just got to the point where his wrists do not let him keep up enough to finish off his 5th GSL(whoever said he has 5 already is thick). There's a difference between falling off your prime due to injury and pretty much dissapearing from the SC2 scene as a whole(sadly HuK has done the latter, 1-2 in Proleague, fell out of GSL again, don't remember the last time I saw him in the top8 at MLG, maybe Providence last year?)
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
Are you fucking joking? I used a means of data to support my claim. You didn't. Streams aren't relateable to hardcore fans. Only hardcore fans support Huk and his achievements from years ago. The casual fans (aka larger viewerbase) follow STREAMS.
Talking about the level of ignorance, yet you just listed like 8 players and then threw Demuslim under the bus for no real reason at all when it didn't even support your point.
Settle down dude I was just defending an up and coming player who fucking deserves it.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
Must be why teams are jumping all over the chance to give Dragon a 6 figure salary. /sarcasm
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
Are you fucking joking? I used a means of data to support my claim. You didn't. Streams aren't relateable to hardcore fans. Only hardcore fans support Huk and his achievements from years ago. The casual fans (aka larger viewerbase) follow STREAMS.
Talking about the level of ignorance, yet you just listed like 8 players and then threw Demuslim under the bus for no real reason at all when it didn't even support your point.
Settle down dude I was just defending an up and coming player who fucking deserves it.
Second time this week I read Demuslim as an "up and coming player". Please do him some justice, he has been around and successful for a long time. You might argue that he even had more successful times in the past.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
Are you fucking joking? I used a means of data to support my claim. You didn't. Streams aren't relateable to hardcore fans. Only hardcore fans support Huk and his achievements from years ago. The casual fans (aka larger viewerbase) follow STREAMS.
Talking about the level of ignorance, yet you just listed like 8 players and then threw Demuslim under the bus for no real reason at all when it didn't even support your point.
Settle down dude I was just defending an up and coming player who fucking deserves it.
How do you know what kind of people watch a stream? High stream numbers and not directly correlative to popularity in any case. I can pick and choose players that get high numbers when they stream but are clearly not as popular worldwide as others. And he's hardly an up and coming player, not sure where you get that from.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
Are you fucking joking? I used a means of data to support my claim. You didn't. Streams aren't relateable to hardcore fans. Only hardcore fans support Huk and his achievements from years ago. The casual fans (aka larger viewerbase) follow STREAMS.
Talking about the level of ignorance, yet you just listed like 8 players and then threw Demuslim under the bus for no real reason at all when it didn't even support your point.
Settle down dude I was just defending an up and coming player who fucking deserves it.
Second time this week I read Demuslim as an "up and coming player". Please do him some justice, he has been around and successful for a long time. You might argue that he even had more successful times in the past.
I agree with this gentlemen. Demuslim an up and coming player? No way. He might be about to bloom with his skills in HOTS, still to be determined. As far as the foreign scene is concerned, Demuslim has been a contender for a while. I don't really see anything 'up and coming' about Demuslim that hasn't been there for at least a year and a half.
On a side note, I love Demuslim. Hes probably the only part of EG I enjoy, other than Stephano and Incontrol. He seems to be at the peak of his game in my eyes and hes more humble about the game than ever. I'm really rooting for him this year.
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
Are you fucking joking? I used a means of data to support my claim. You didn't. Streams aren't relateable to hardcore fans. Only hardcore fans support Huk and his achievements from years ago. The casual fans (aka larger viewerbase) follow STREAMS.
Talking about the level of ignorance, yet you just listed like 8 players and then threw Demuslim under the bus for no real reason at all when it didn't even support your point.
Settle down dude I was just defending an up and coming player who fucking deserves it.
How do you know what kind of people watch a stream? High stream numbers and not directly correlative to popularity in any case. I can pick and choose players that get high numbers when they stream but are clearly not as popular worldwide as others. And he's hardly an up and coming player, not sure where you get that from.
then... do it? I don't know why everyone is in a bitchfight about popularity and what kind of people watch streams. It seems rather silly to me to try and break down the fanbase ob people into 'hardcore's and 'casual's. It's a lot more complicated than that and in the end it is not relevant to this topic (ROOT gaming house, remember?).
On May 04 2013 15:28 zachMEISTER wrote: Kennigit up in arms.
I'm just gob smacked. Yesterday some guys on reddit were explaining how kespa was basically a players union. The astounding level of ignorance required to make a statement like this is just baffling. Now im arguing with someone that demuslim, because he gets 8k stream viewers from hardcore sc2 fans is more popular than idra or huk or hero worldwide. And its not even based on any data....its just "im pretty sure because his stream is good that he's the most popular".
Are you fucking joking? I used a means of data to support my claim. You didn't. Streams aren't relateable to hardcore fans. Only hardcore fans support Huk and his achievements from years ago. The casual fans (aka larger viewerbase) follow STREAMS.
Talking about the level of ignorance, yet you just listed like 8 players and then threw Demuslim under the bus for no real reason at all when it didn't even support your point.
Settle down dude I was just defending an up and coming player who fucking deserves it.
How do you know what kind of people watch a stream? High stream numbers and not directly correlative to popularity in any case. I can pick and choose players that get high numbers when they stream but are clearly not as popular worldwide as others. And he's hardly an up and coming player, not sure where you get that from.
then... do it? I don't know why everyone is in a bitchfight about popularity and what kind of people watch streams. It seems rather silly to me to try and break down the fanbase ob people into 'hardcore's and 'casual's. It's a lot more complicated than that and in the end it is not relevant to this topic (ROOT gaming house, remember?).
Why would I do it? The statement is self-explanatory. And I'm not dividing anyone, he was. I simply pointed out there's no way he can tell what people watches ones stream, whatever you want to call them and that stream viewers and not directly correlative to overall popularity. As you say yourself there's a lot of factors to consider.
Now why don't you take your own advice and respond to a relevant post instead of me.
Has Root released a schedule for when they will acquire the house, move in, and start producing content? Obviously setting up will take a substantial amount of time, but is there a timetable?
Or do they at least have weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly updates planned where we can follow their progress?
For someone with a degree in journalism, I'd expect at least something productive when he decides to write, but I guess Richard isn't professional enough to keep personal feelings and opinions out of his work..
Same goes with how he deals with people. Especially on the tek-9 website, he insults the users there, even on twitter, but if you say one word about him, doesn't even have to be insulting, just stating facts, you end up getting banned and if he's in the mood he pm's you first, insulting you, trying to belittle you etc.. then he bans you so you can't speak up anymore.. A serious lack of professionalism.
I was asked to write for the new website/merger between tek-9 and whatever other website(s) involved but I declined, because that would mean I'd have to work with the likes of him, and he doesn't deserve anyone remotely productive/professional to be writing for/under him.
The guy should really step away from e-sports. He's got a degree in journalism, so it's obvious what he should do, instead of acting like a child everywhere he goes within e-sports.
On May 09 2013 03:21 MaeStrO.OrtSeaM wrote: For someone with a degree in journalism, I'd expect at least something productive when he decides to write, but I guess Richard isn't professional enough to keep personal feelings and opinions out of his work..
Same goes with how he deals with people. Especially on the tek-9 website, he insults the users there, even on twitter, but if you say one word about him, doesn't even have to be insulting, just stating facts, you end up getting banned and if he's in the mood he pm's you first, insulting you, trying to belittle you etc.. then he bans you so you can't speak up anymore.. A serious lack of professionalism.
I was asked to write for the new website/merger between tek-9 and whatever other website(s) involved but I declined, because that would mean I'd have to work with the likes of him, and he doesn't deserve anyone remotely productive/professional to be writing for/under him.
The guy should really step away from e-sports. He's got a degree in journalism, so it's obvious what he should do, instead of acting like a child everywhere he goes within e-sports.
Would like to know when all this happened? Sounds like the usual butthurt "I should be able to say whatever I want on someone else's website" nonsense I read every day.
Still, always good to see how much of a grudge you weird people will hold. Shows that what we do matters at least.
I think the weakest part of his argument (and it is weak, as well as poorly written) is his assertion that Root is a "small time organisation that was one time relevant". Really? The team with more players in WCS NA than TL? The team with the most players in Shoutcraft NA? That is irrelevant? Please.
On May 09 2013 03:21 MaeStrO.OrtSeaM wrote: For someone with a degree in journalism, I'd expect at least something productive when he decides to write, but I guess Richard isn't professional enough to keep personal feelings and opinions out of his work..
Same goes with how he deals with people. Especially on the tek-9 website, he insults the users there, even on twitter, but if you say one word about him, doesn't even have to be insulting, just stating facts, you end up getting banned and if he's in the mood he pm's you first, insulting you, trying to belittle you etc.. then he bans you so you can't speak up anymore.. A serious lack of professionalism.
I was asked to write for the new website/merger between tek-9 and whatever other website(s) involved but I declined, because that would mean I'd have to work with the likes of him, and he doesn't deserve anyone remotely productive/professional to be writing for/under him.
The guy should really step away from e-sports. He's got a degree in journalism, so it's obvious what he should do, instead of acting like a child everywhere he goes within e-sports.
Would like to know when all this happened? Sounds like the usual butthurt "I should be able to say whatever I want on someone else's website" nonsense I read every day.
Still, always good to see how much of a grudge you weird people will hold. Shows that what we do matters at least.
I think you proved his point nicely. Out of all the posts in the last dozen pages, not only do you respond to this one immediately, it's the only post you've responded to since your initial defence.
And more importantly, that one post is spent calling someone butthurt.
On May 09 2013 03:21 MaeStrO.OrtSeaM wrote: For someone with a degree in journalism, I'd expect at least something productive when he decides to write, but I guess Richard isn't professional enough to keep personal feelings and opinions out of his work..
Same goes with how he deals with people. Especially on the tek-9 website, he insults the users there, even on twitter, but if you say one word about him, doesn't even have to be insulting, just stating facts, you end up getting banned and if he's in the mood he pm's you first, insulting you, trying to belittle you etc.. then he bans you so you can't speak up anymore.. A serious lack of professionalism.
I was asked to write for the new website/merger between tek-9 and whatever other website(s) involved but I declined, because that would mean I'd have to work with the likes of him, and he doesn't deserve anyone remotely productive/professional to be writing for/under him.
The guy should really step away from e-sports. He's got a degree in journalism, so it's obvious what he should do, instead of acting like a child everywhere he goes within e-sports.
Would like to know when all this happened? Sounds like the usual butthurt "I should be able to say whatever I want on someone else's website" nonsense I read every day.
Still, always good to see how much of a grudge you weird people will hold. Shows that what we do matters at least.
People can do whatever the fuck they want with their money, if they want to support ROOT, then so be it. Fuck you. Nothing you do matters.
PS. People that use the word butthurt are usually total morons, you validate this nicely.
On May 09 2013 03:21 MaeStrO.OrtSeaM wrote: For someone with a degree in journalism, I'd expect at least something productive when he decides to write, but I guess Richard isn't professional enough to keep personal feelings and opinions out of his work..
Same goes with how he deals with people. Especially on the tek-9 website, he insults the users there, even on twitter, but if you say one word about him, doesn't even have to be insulting, just stating facts, you end up getting banned and if he's in the mood he pm's you first, insulting you, trying to belittle you etc.. then he bans you so you can't speak up anymore.. A serious lack of professionalism.
I was asked to write for the new website/merger between tek-9 and whatever other website(s) involved but I declined, because that would mean I'd have to work with the likes of him, and he doesn't deserve anyone remotely productive/professional to be writing for/under him.
The guy should really step away from e-sports. He's got a degree in journalism, so it's obvious what he should do, instead of acting like a child everywhere he goes within e-sports.
Would like to know when all this happened? Sounds like the usual butthurt "I should be able to say whatever I want on someone else's website" nonsense I read every day.
Still, always good to see how much of a grudge you weird people will hold. Shows that what we do matters at least.
I think you proved his point nicely. Out of all the posts in the last dozen pages, not only do you respond to this one immediately, it's the only post you've responded to since your initial defence.
And more importantly, that one post is spent calling someone butthurt.
If by immediately you mean a day later, then yes it was pretty immediate.
On May 09 2013 03:21 MaeStrO.OrtSeaM wrote: For someone with a degree in journalism, I'd expect at least something productive when he decides to write, but I guess Richard isn't professional enough to keep personal feelings and opinions out of his work..
Same goes with how he deals with people. Especially on the tek-9 website, he insults the users there, even on twitter, but if you say one word about him, doesn't even have to be insulting, just stating facts, you end up getting banned and if he's in the mood he pm's you first, insulting you, trying to belittle you etc.. then he bans you so you can't speak up anymore.. A serious lack of professionalism.
I was asked to write for the new website/merger between tek-9 and whatever other website(s) involved but I declined, because that would mean I'd have to work with the likes of him, and he doesn't deserve anyone remotely productive/professional to be writing for/under him.
The guy should really step away from e-sports. He's got a degree in journalism, so it's obvious what he should do, instead of acting like a child everywhere he goes within e-sports.
Would like to know when all this happened? Sounds like the usual butthurt "I should be able to say whatever I want on someone else's website" nonsense I read every day.
Still, always good to see how much of a grudge you weird people will hold. Shows that what we do matters at least.
I think you proved his point nicely. Out of all the posts in the last dozen pages, not only do you respond to this one immediately, it's the only post you've responded to since your initial defence.
And more importantly, that one post is spent calling someone butthurt.
If by immediately you mean a day later, then yes it was pretty immediate.
Butthurt? Not by a mile.
When did this all happen? To me it became really obvious since the day you took over Bcrbo's place on tek9. Your "dictatorship" on that website started right away. When someone made a valid argument and you couldn't prove the person wrong, you simply banned him. Not just that, first you warned him that this person was going to get banned, even though his arguments were completely valid. You took offense in that, so you banned the fucker. Not just that.. You even removed someone from your staff because YOU(!) thought he agreed with that person's opinion, which wasn't the case at all and you didn't even listen to him, you just removed him from the tek9 staff. In this case I'm referring to the Portuguese lad called David. After you banned him you even said he was never part of the staff, which everyone knew was just a blatant lie.
Few days ago you banned someone for saying it's funny to see you insulting people on twitter, in PMs, on the forums whatever, but as soon as 1 person even gives the hint of offending you, you ban them. And guess what, that person got banned as well.. hmmm, yeah, I'm quite sure all those people complaining about you are "butthurt" or whatever. But I'm not, I wouldn't decline an offer to write for/under you & tek9 & the new website and then be butthurt.. That wouldn't make sense.
I remember you getting in a press conference and whatever happened in there, you continued about it on twitter, making yourself look so childish, I was simply astonished by how you don't realize how unprofessional you make yourself look sometimes, well.. most of the time nowadays considering people don't only get to read your work but they can also see your personality through your ways of "moderating" a website and a community. Which is exactly why I declined to write for that new website that's coming up.
btw, ""I should be able to say whatever I want on someone else's website"", it's funny, because there is some truth in it, because if I would've made my initial post in this thread on tek9, I would end up getting banned for "abusing staff", which is apparently your favorite line to write when you give a reason to someone's ban, even when their posts aren't even remotely abusive nor insulting, it's just you and your ego and whenever you feel threatened, humiliated or whatever, you turn everything into a dictatorship on your website.
"Shows that what we do matters at least" <= people who feel involved because of the word "we" should feel offended, because you put yourself in the same class as them. And no, what you do doesn't really matter, you're replaceable just like anyone else and frankly, 8 out of 10 people trying to do what you do would eventually end up being better at it (writing articles and such) and they wouldn't even need a degree in journalism for that either.
In the very beginning when I started exploring your work I was like alright.. it was good, it was fun to read, it was productive,... But nowadays, you're like only a shadow of who you used to be. And that's a shame, but then again, maybe you've always been like this and maybe I just didn't notice until I decided to get into it a little more often instead of just playing games, who knows..
This statement is usually followed by a wall of lies and / or nonsense to basically try and explain how wrong it is that you had a ban from a forum. I can see you've not disappointed and held true to the stereotype. Safe to say that you are indeed butthurt, where "butthurt" means you disagree with you not being considered important enough to have rules ignored for your benefit.
When did this all happen? To me it became really obvious since the day you took over Bcrbo's place on tek9. Your "dictatorship" on that website started right away. When someone made a valid argument and you couldn't prove the person wrong, you simply banned him. Not just that, first you warned him that this person was going to get banned, even though his arguments were completely valid. You took offense in that, so you banned the fucker. Not just that.. You even removed someone from your staff because YOU(!) thought he agreed with that person's opinion, which wasn't the case at all and you didn't even listen to him, you just removed him from the tek9 staff. In this case I'm referring to the Portuguese lad called David. After you banned him you even said he was never part of the staff, which everyone knew was just a blatant lie.]
Let's not forget why I was appointed in the first place and let's not forget how I've turned the site around. Yes, forum moderation has got stricter. If you knew some of the things that were actually going on, then you'd be in a position to talk about "dictatorships" - reality: someone had to take charge. We had two factions of admins banning each other and undoing each other's bans, staff who thought the site was closing and an editor who basically told people he was jumping ship and everyone else should do the same. I came in and fixed it all and sometimes you have to make decisions people don't like.
In fixing those problems I had to find staff who could all "sing from the same hymn sheet" and that certainly doesn't extend to people who simultaneously want responsibility and abuse that trust by openly criticising staff and betraying confidences. We had some people that didn't realise what being part of a team meant and yes, we removed them, banned them and when people got upset by that we removed them too. I'm not going to apologise for doing that. We found the right people to run the site.
Few days ago you banned someone for saying it's funny to see you insulting people on twitter, in PMs, on the forums whatever, but as soon as 1 person even gives the hint of offending you, you ban them. And guess what, that person got banned as well.. hmmm, yeah, I'm quite sure all those people complaining about you are "butthurt" or whatever. But I'm not, I wouldn't decline an offer to write for/under you & tek9 & the new website and then be butthurt.. That wouldn't make sense.
If people want to abuse me on Twitter, as many do, they can. Same as my own Twitter is my space that has nothing to do with my job. If people want to abuse me or any other staff member - or user for that matter - on our site, they get banned. That's how it works. People can disagree with me but they don't get to abuse me in my own workplace, sorry.
As for this "offer to write" you allude to... You've never been approached to write by me and I'm the only person who handles recruitment so will have to just to dismiss this as another fantastical part of your account, which is already a great work of fiction.
I remember you getting in a press conference and whatever happened in there, you continued about it on twitter, making yourself look so childish
I don't think you know what a "press conference" is (it's when you call the press to tell them something, which I've never done in my decade working in e-sports) so either you're incredibly stupid or you're making up a story. Either way, it points to just how ridiculous what you're saying is.
, I was simply astonished by how you don't realize how unprofessional you make yourself look sometimes, well.. most of the time nowadays considering people don't only get to read your work but they can also see your personality through your ways of "moderating" a website and a community. Which is exactly why I declined to write for that new website that's coming up.
Reiterating points you've already said and a lie you've already told. This isn't an exam. You don't need to waffle to hope to bag some "extra credit". I moderate the website in the way that the vast majority of professional websites are moderated. You won't read posts on the BBC saying "FUCK THE BBC" or "LICENSE FEE DISGRACE" or "FIRE PHIL MCNULTY". If people want to enter into a disagreement surrounding opinions, great. They are free to do so and do so daily, Saying that our staff are bad, throwing personal abuse at them, using the forums as conduits for other grievances and petty nonsense... We delete that. I'm not sure how this qualifies as unprofessional but nothing you've said has been accurate or made sense, so why break that trend.
btw, ""I should be able to say whatever I want on someone else's website"", it's funny, because there is some truth in it, because if I would've made my initial post in this thread on tek9, I would end up getting banned for "abusing staff", which is apparently your favorite line to write when you give a reason to someone's ban, even when their posts aren't even remotely abusive nor insulting, it's just you and your ego and whenever you feel threatened, humiliated or whatever, you turn everything into a dictatorship on your website.
See above points. Then when you've digested that also realise that probably 95% of bans on Tek-9 were issued by our moderators and not me. It's nothing to do with my ego and everything to do with enforcing a professional standard. More abuse is aimed at our moderators than it is me in truth because of my lack of activity on the forums.
"Shows that what we do matters at least" <= people who feel involved because of the word "we" should feel offended, because you put yourself in the same class as them. And no, what you do doesn't really matter, you're replaceable just like anyone else and frankly, 8 out of 10 people trying to do what you do would eventually end up being better at it (writing articles and such) and they wouldn't even need a degree in journalism for that either.
An irrelevant point to what I meant, which is simply for someone to take the argument to another site (yes, the vast majority of users on Team Liquid don't fucking care you were banned on Tek-9, or probably even know what Tek-9 is) shows how important it is to you. However rather than channel that to alter your own behaviour you post a wall of childish nonsense and lies.
If people can do better than me, good for them. I hope they do. E-sports needs more talented writers, no doubt about that.
In the very beginning when I started exploring your work I was like alright.. it was good, it was fun to read, it was productive,... But nowadays, you're like only a shadow of who you used to be. And that's a shame, but then again, maybe you've always been like this and maybe I just didn't notice until I decided to get into it a little more often instead of just playing games, who knows..
Let's summarise this part is "before I got banned I loved your work. Now I'll go out of my way to denigrate it at every opportunity because you banned me from a forum I like to use".
Hell, I don't even know if I banned you but if you think anything you're doing is original then you're really mistaken. Regardless, no one cares here so if you want to continue this, go for it. I think most adults could read the nonsense you've posted, read the reply I've foolishly taken time to write and realise which one of us is of sound mind. Here's the thing though, it's not a popularity contest. It wouldn't matter if everything you said WAS true, which it isn't, and you managed to persuade an entire bigger forum to "hate" me (to carry on your childish language). I'm in charge of a website, I make the calls. If you don't agree with it, vote with your feet. Posts like this though only embarrass you.
... so rather than getting hard hitting e-sports content pushed to the forefront, we get tens of thousands of people encouraged to watch someone making a living through e-sports humiliate themselves in exchange for your views. Dance for those pennies you hobo…
EPT
![[image loading]](http://sacurrent.com/polopoly_fs/1.1229494!/image/800694862.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/800694862.jpg)
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