On April 14 2013 00:33 Lunareste wrote: I like Tastosis banter.
So do a LOT of other people, which is why they charge so much money to cast a tournament together and why stream numbers are invariably much, much higher when they do.
Like them or not, there is no denying that Tasteless and Artosis are the biggest, most popular casters in SC2 right now.
Yeah exactly. The comments in this thread alone show how many people enjoy the banter.
Filling any downtime with (meaningless) stats is such an american thing. Drowning the viewer in stuff, because the broadcaster is afraid they'll flick the channel. This is not the case usually though. Watching tennis for example, there's some stats before the match (ofc), but the match is mostly just tense period of waiting/rapid action. It's fine as it is.
People like Tastosis' banter, no question. But do people like every other combos banter equally? Some caster combos get reemed for not being funny, being awkward, having nothing in common with each other, etc, etc. Would this be a good thing for a league with those casters to up their caster game? Which in turn might filter to other tourneys over time?
For me as viewer, the biggest problem of all is downtime. I once watched the VOD of a major SC2 event, I believe it was MLG, but this applies to all productions. I always skiped the fillers in between games and watched all games without leaving anything out. In the beginning of that session I thought "holy cow, how will I be able to finnish this 13 hour VOD in only one day?!" - then 4 hours later I was set and done.
Out of 13 hours of footage, there where only 4 hours of games. So I have to wait 1 hour to see a game of 20 minutes - on average. I believe this might be worst percentage in any sports ever.
If i think of soccer, there is 30 minutes before the game and 15 minutes within the game, so 45 minutes total of downtime with most of it before the game where I can skip it. But even if I watch it, it is still only 50% of game time, not 325%.
TLDR; Decreasing downtimes would increase my pleasure watching SC2 a lot.
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: Just to make a comment on caster quality overall I feel like bringing excitement to the viewer is very important. Sweden's by far most popular sports-commentator Lasse Granqvist works for national radio and has gained his popularity for being able to cover action greatly by speaking very fast (once again, it's radio), but most of all because he delivers every sports moment with huge feeling. I don't want to hear the casters casually say "Oh. That was a bad battle. Expect gg any second." after an engagement. I want them them to yell it out! Especially during the actual battle. I think TobiWanKenobi is a great example of a good E-sports caster with real passion.
Agreeing with that 100%. In so many casts now (Code S) I was missing a Khaldor-like caster yelling, getting excited hearing his head explodes. And Tobi is good yea but who I like WAY more is HoNCasts very own BreakyCPK, this guy knows how to make a casts exciting like hell!
I fucking hate this. Hearing Klazart for broodwar spout verbal diarrhoea was one of the most painful things ever. He had no insight, and simply yelling what I'm already seeing on screen is not my idea of enjoyment. In the few moments where Tasteless does it, it's terrible. "He's hitting and he's hitting hard!" said at twice the normal volume isn't exciting - moments in game are either exciting or they're not. Yelling doesn't make a difference.
Liking/disliking stats or banter is totally personal. I dislike about half the stats already offered and enjoy the banter.
Well, when Tasteless does "get excited" about SC2, it often seems very forced and fake. Compare that to his BW-commentary and there is a huge difference. I miss those times when he was the knowledgeable analysist and really seemed to love the game he was casting...
I like the light banter in the early stages of a game, it allows casters to have a lot more personality than what they would be allowed in any sport. It adds something unique, and I think overflowing it with stats that for the most part isn't that important to my enjoyment
Ive been always critical of english casters in this regard. Moletrap is the only person that i remeber that seemed to have done research prior to game and talk about stats, match up, etc. But you guys hated him for another reason.
The casters i think needa to be more professional, as in youre not improv'ing the casts, do some fucking home work. Some of the casters didnt even know the players korean name
And its th same reasom why i fucking love themarine, he talks to players before game starts to give us insight, studies maps and stats for his casting.
I'm afraid to say you don't quite understand entertainment. Dry stats are terribly boring. Anyone can look them up in Liquipedia, they don't have to be (and shouldn't be) the center of discussion during the show. Showing and discussing stats during a game completely destroys it - the comentators lose their focus on the game itself and start talking about things that happened in another game. When Tastosis talks about Pokemon, at least they stop to say what's in the game. When other casters talk about stats, they just ramble on even during an important engagement. All of your points are valid, but not during the show itself. What you want can only be contained in an entirely separate program like MLG's RoE. When you start to pick a game apart (analyze it), the viewers might be interested for a while to understand why something happened, but they lose the momentum of their own exitement toward the game.
In short: Over-analysis and too much stats destroy your fun. Such things should be done before and after the show in a separate program.
I do agree about the 2 in 1 screens - being able to see drops and such would be nice.
On April 14 2013 00:42 juusoko wrote: Filling any downtime with (meaningless) stats is such an american thing. Drowning the viewer in stuff, because the broadcaster is afraid they'll flick the channel. This is not the case usually though. Watching tennis for example, there's some stats before the match (ofc), but the match is mostly just tense period of waiting/rapid action. It's fine as it is.
Completely agree. If you watch snooker on EuroSport, you'll see almost no stats, and greater viewership than tennis or baseball. Also commentators who are professional players, not journalists who have no idea what they're talking about.
On April 14 2013 00:48 AKnopf wrote: For me as viewer, the biggest problem of all is downtime. I once watched the VOD of a major SC2 event, I believe it was MLG, but this applies to all productions. I always skiped the fillers in between games and watched all games without leaving anything out. In the beginning of that session I thought "holy cow, how will I be able to finnish this 13 hour VOD in only one day?!" - then 4 hours later I was set and done.
Out of 13 hours of footage, there where only 4 hours of games. So I have to wait 1 hour to see a game of 20 minutes - on average. I believe this might be worst percentage in any sports ever.
If i think of soccer, there is 30 minutes before the game and 15 minutes within the game, so 45 minutes total of downtime with most of it before the game where I can skip it. But even if I watch it, it is still only 50% of game time, not 325%.
TLDR; Decreasing downtimes would increase my pleasure watching SC2 a lot.
Watching a MLG is just part of my internet experience that day; I'm doing other stuff and only switch to MLG if something is happening. Not to say that limiting downtime is a bad thing of course.
And I suppose, during games, casters could do other things than just talk pokemon but I actually like the banter. They're real people instead of a lot of the "professional" sports casters.
i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
On April 14 2013 01:32 jinorazi wrote: i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
Stats ARE intersting. But it's the game itself that we watch and try to enjoy, right?
On April 13 2013 23:32 ShatterZer0 wrote: I mean, commentators never really stop talking about player stats and peculiarities in other sports and most fans love it. It gives depth and a sense of expanse to the games. Of course, to those die hard fans who already know the bulk of the information it'd be redundant material... but that's a niche audience that'll be happy with the high level games anyways.
In mainstream sports the casual fan (90%-ish of all fans) likes stats, because he doesn't know them. The hardcore fan (10%-ish of all fans) hates stats, because they're obvious to him. In StarCraft, being a non-mainstream sport, it's pretty much reversed. Therefore, the majority of StarCraft viewers dislike stats being shoved into their eyes and years by people with annoying voices.
On April 14 2013 01:32 jinorazi wrote: i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
Stats ARE intersting. But it's the game itself that we watch and try to enjoy, right?
On April 13 2013 23:32 ShatterZer0 wrote: I mean, commentators never really stop talking about player stats and peculiarities in other sports and most fans love it. It gives depth and a sense of expanse to the games. Of course, to those die hard fans who already know the bulk of the information it'd be redundant material... but that's a niche audience that'll be happy with the high level games anyways.
In mainstream sports the casual fan (90%-ish of all fans) likes stats, because he doesn't know them. The hardcore fan (10%-ish of all fans) hates stats, because they're obvious to him. In StarCraft, being a non-mainstream sport, it's pretty much reversed. Therefore, the majority of StarCraft viewers dislike stats being shoved into their eyes and years by people with annoying voices.
the game is more enjoyable with good casting, for me i dont watch any gsl/gstl because there is no korean available for free, meanwhile i do for proleague because there is one.
I dont know if it has been said. But I love this idea, and The GD studio has already started doing this for Dota. They go over lanes with a magnetic board they have/magnets of the heroes, they tell stats on comebacks, hero percents, which heroes are doing the best in the tourney etc. I believe there are 6 members on their casting squad and it feels like a real production when they do things. I love it,
On April 14 2013 00:42 juusoko wrote: Filling any downtime with (meaningless) stats is such an american thing. Drowning the viewer in stuff, because the broadcaster is afraid they'll flick the channel. This is not the case usually though. Watching tennis for example, there's some stats before the match (ofc), but the match is mostly just tense period of waiting/rapid action. It's fine as it is.
i cant understand how people can actually want more stats in the cast.
to me, as an european, watching american sports is painfull because of all the stats.
actually watching any american televison feels wierd, when you watch a naturedocumentary you dont want to know about the 3.543 inch teeth or the 576 N bitingpower.
The 'downtime' where casters are filling in with random conversation can be one of the best parts of eSports casts imo.
It humanizes a sport that is (by nature) geeky and techy and purely digital. It brings the heart in.
Random funny chatter can capture people's attention to the match ("what the hell are they saying? lol!") that otherwise might ignore a bunch of terminology and numbers that go right over their heads.
I think it would be a sad day if one day all that was sanitized out for the sake of 'professionalism'. Esports should be fun imo. Not a souless corporate business proposition.
More stats, insights based on stats, and pre/post game analysis with onscreen lines (like a football analysis) is more than welcome on the other hand. That is heading in the right direction.
On April 14 2013 01:32 jinorazi wrote: i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
A lot the time the stats you are mentioning are not very meaningful, because the sample size is so small. There's a similar problem in "real" sports, where announcers draw conclusions from data that doesn't signify much at all.
On "the lull," your comparison to other sports isn't really accurate. First, many sports have zero downtime. But among the ones that do have downtime (i.e. American football, basketball, hockey, baseball), the longest bits are filled by commercial breaks, and the short bits are so short you fill it with things like discussing what is actually happening in the game, showing a replay, short comment by a sideline reporter, or a quick chat with a coach.
The more important bit, though, is that SC2 has a long period at the beginning of the game where you only need to be half-watching to keep up, and the only thing that really comes close to that is baseball. And the baseball announcers I'm most familiar with definitely spend several points in the game talking about random stuff, especially when the game is getting away from one team. Hell, the ones here spend an entire half-innings answering fan questions from Twitter, or sticking a headset on a player in the dugout instead of talking about the game. And honestly, it's never bothered me at all, nor struck me as unprofessional. Most statistics that sports broadcasts use are meaningless, and the only people who are fascinated by it are the people who don't get how informative they actually are. That "win percentage between 15 and 22 minutes" is exactly the sort of thing that bothers me about American sports broadcasts... I don't think you need to fill time with that kind of thing.
That said, there have definitely been a couple Tastosis tangents that I thought were really entertaining, but ended up going on so late that there were proxy pylons being placed before they started talking about the game. That's bad.
EPT
