EPTSome of your points are vaild...for example catching two drops via split screen...but this is not as easy as it sounds production wise.
A Critique of SC2 Broadcasting Production - Page 2
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cutler
Germany609 Posts
Some of your points are vaild...for example catching two drops via split screen...but this is not as easy as it sounds production wise. | ||
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LimitSEA
Australia9580 Posts
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Ejohrik
Sweden219 Posts
Why does there have to be such huge downtime between matches? I understand the need for a gap between the matches for players to get settled in or just re-focus for a new game. However, they should try to keep filling this gap with some kind of discussion, analysis or at least some SC2-related content. I don't want to sit and watch a schedule while listening to stock music for 30% of the time I'm watching the stream. On televised soccer matches, the studio people have no problem of talkning about the game for 15 minutes straight (unless there are commercials). Even if the Korean audience get's commercials, we don't. I feel like the big difference is how much the casters/studio-experts have been studying for the game(s). A sports analysist is expected to know a ton of facts about the athletes and/or teams playing that day. It is their job, after all. Sometimes I feel like most top-level StarCraft 2 casters only talk about players from their "own experience", meaning games they have casted themself and games they have casually watched in their spare time. Some casters doesn't even seem to have those kinds of facts to provide us with. Just to make a comment on caster quality overall I feel like bringing excitement to the viewer is very important. Sweden's by far most popular sports-commentator Lasse Granqvist works for national radio and has gained his popularity for being able to cover action greatly by speaking very fast (once again, it's radio), but most of all because he delivers every sports moment with huge feeling. I don't want to hear the casters casually say "Oh. That was a bad battle. Expect gg any second." after an engagement. I want them them to yell it out! Especially during the actual battle. I think TobiWanKenobi is a great example of a good E-sports caster with real passion. I actually agree with the idea about multiple observers. If GOM would be able to get hold of and afford enough people, I think 3 observers would be great. 2 of the observers focus on one player each. Staying inside their base (close to CC/Nex/Hatch) at all times. The 3rd caster focuses on the area inbetween bases for battles, proxies or general army movements. If told to by some director, these casters can break their roles focusing on multiple drops in the same base for example. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
As for analysis between games: this is huge. Showing us why someone lost, in detail, or why someone won, is vitally important for the casual fan to connect with the players and the game. It really wouldn't be too expensive, and it would help enormously for the uninitiated, so to speak, to understand what they just saw and what to look for in the future. As for your number 2, I'm not so into that idea. I've noticed that an inherent and unsolvable problem with Starcraft is that it can be ridiculously confusing to follow for a person who doesn't play a lot, or at all. With all the stuff going on the screen at once already, adding even more pop-outs and pop-ups and jump-cuts would be extremely distracting. I prefer the observer to just do his/her best at following the action, sometimes breaking away to show some important piece of side information, like a drop or missed upgrade. On a side note, I will suggest a couple other ideas/criticisms: Minimum of three casters for major productions: GSL Code S, MLG, etc. This helps keep the back-and-forth inside joke stuff down and it also forces the casters to decide on specific rolls each person must play. One is play-by-play, the other is a strategy/analysis, and one is player/team/coach/map/stats information. Obviously, any one can jump in and comment on something, or bring attention to something, but sticking to a basic guideline keeps you on-topic and eliminates the talking over each other during battles. I notice that Korean PL does this, and honestly, even not being able to understand the language, you can just tell that they are more professional, and therefore more accessible, than any western caster at the moment. Player/coach interaction: Proleague does this a little bit already, but I think everyone needs to do a little more, and better. Get a person who interviews everyone and run pieces of those interviews between games. Also have them talk about interviews during the down-time of the game itself. An example: "You know, I was talking to Taeja before this match, and he said he was feeling really confident lately about his TvZ." "I was speaking with Coach Park a while ago, and he was extremely excited about Hero's gateway expands." "Interviewing Mvp was a real treat; he assured me that we would be seeing him in his top form today." "Apparently, DRG is feeling a little nervous about his muta control, we'll have to watch out for that in this upcoming match." It helps us connect with the player in the booth, the coach outside the booth, and the game being played to hear this kind of stuff. And it's a good way to shuffle through downtime without breaking topic. At the end of the day, everybody has their own opinion on what it should be or what it shouldn't be; but the standard is the standard for a reason. And E-sports are not so different from "real" sports that the standard is suddenly completely changed. The fact is: more professional = higher quality = better viewing experience for the masses. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 13 2013 13:27 Tayar wrote: idle chit-chat is a time honored tradition in sports broadcasting. the real issue is the downtime between games. The problem with idle chit-chat is that it sounds like they are bored with the game. Which makes me bored with the game. From a purely objective level, there is no real reason for idle chit-chat other than laziness/inexperience. I get that people like it, but it's actually a huge no-no in broadcasting for a reason. I get the feeling that a lot of people just don't like the idea that what they have isn't the absolute best that it could ever be. There is no caster that cannot massively improve their casting. No one is perfect, and through no fault of their own, SC casters especially are not perfect. They can all improve, a lot, and more professionalism is not a bad thing. I remember people freaking out over the suit/tie combo, saying that they hated it; but honestly, it's not even optional. You can't expect people to take you seriously if you don't look serious. | ||
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mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On April 13 2013 13:07 Ikris wrote: I wouldn't say I agree with any of these criticisms. For one thing, the "making buildings" aspect of the game is a huge aspect.. It's called macro and it can decided how a game will pan out. A criticism of professional sports are the overabundance of useless stats that they use to fill time. It's unnecessary filler, and light banter between the casters doesn't hurt the enjoyment of the game. sums up my feelings quite nicely about the subject. | ||
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Skiblet
South Africa206 Posts
What I'm trying to say is e-sports is e-sports, not a sport. Lets keep it like that. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12024 Posts
5) To make those feeds relevant you need screens showing the live feed to the commentators so they see what the audience sees. I personally think they should be doing this anyway. Legend points out so much stuff and both Tasteless and Artosis just choose to ignore it every single time. | ||
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
On April 13 2013 11:48 IAmSlide wrote: The next problem: Action Show it to me, all of it. If someone is dropping in two places at once, show me both locations using split screen or picture in picture. Multipronged attacks are a common occurrence, show me all the pieces. Our Terran player is dropping the Zerg 3rd while the Zerg's Mutalisks are killing SCVs in the Terran's main? Show me both at the same time. It's not new technology, show it all to me. MLG uses this a little bit, but not nearly enough. Everybody should be doing it, all the time. EG Masters Cup was the production that originally pioneered the picture-in-picture, I think. Shout out to Sir Scoots!  | ||
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: I agree fully with the OP. There was pretty much an outrage in the Twitch chat during one of the Code S broadcasts, because Tasteless just kept bringing up irrelevant subjects, not giving Artosis a chance to say anything related to StarCraft 2 for almost 10 minutes into a game. I get your point, but I dunno if that's the best example to use. Because Tasteless and Artosis "wasting time" during downtime is actually pretty darned entertaining most of the time. And they are the best in the business when it comes to being funny and entertaining while nothing much is going on. It's all too rare in SC2 casting and they should be commended for it. But in other leagues, downtime is a huge problem, I agree. NASL is pretty good with downtime, though. | ||
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
I play a LOT of starcraft, and even I get really bored when casters speak in nothing but numbers. A few key numbers can be interesting, but if someone gets gas at 16 instead of 17, I really couldn't give fewer fucks. I feel like that's what the stats breakdown would inevitably lead to. Sure, it would work in maybe 1 game. But you're casting a best of 7 between the same two players, there simply aren't enough interesting numbers to talk about. At some point you're going to have to fall back on banter and other stuff to fill the time. This is coming from someone who takes starcraft pretty seriously too. I watch some tournaments with my RL friends who are all casuals or don't even play. Their favorite casters by far are Tasteless/Artosis. Not even close. They complain every time there's a tournament without these two. So, if number overload can drive off active SC2 players, just think what it will do to our casual viewers. | ||
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NkosiSW
13 Posts
Professional broadcasters of other sports fill downtime with banter too, but it's banter about the game and the players. Because that's what most people are there to watch. Of course, it's easier to talk about your favourite donut than to informatively discuss players, teams, games, stats, analysis, past highlights and future predictions. On April 13 2013 18:44 mrRoflpwn wrote: For me and for many others- the best part of Code S is the jokes from Tasteless during the down time. Well, perhaps you can petition Tastosis to start their own twitch channel devoted to their hilarious humour. How about "Two nerds awkwardly pretend to laugh at each other's "jokes", while continually telling each other how funny they are" as a working title. Should be an internet hit... | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On April 13 2013 18:58 TrickyGilligan wrote: OP I don't agree with #1 at all, which seems to be your main critique. I play a LOT of starcraft, and even I get really bored when casters speak in nothing but numbers. A few key numbers can be interesting, but if someone gets gas at 16 instead of 17, I really couldn't give fewer fucks. I feel like that's what the stats breakdown would inevitably lead to. Sure, it would work in maybe 1 game. But you're casting a best of 7 between the same two players, there simply aren't enough interesting numbers to talk about. At some point you're going to have to fall back on banter and other stuff to fill the time. This is coming from someone who takes starcraft pretty seriously too. I watch some tournaments with my RL friends who are all casuals or don't even play. Their favorite casters by far are Tasteless/Artosis. Not even close. They complain every time there's a tournament without these two. So, if number overload can drive off active SC2 players, just think what it will do to our casual viewers. It's not number overload if it's done correctly. Don't just say: "He got gas at 17 instead of 16." Don't just point out a 56.7859696% win-rate against toss. Actively connect the statistics with game-play trends, player trends, map trends. Talk about why this player prefers this build, or is this player going outside his/her normal build "comfort zone". Ask your fellow caster what about the win-rate does he find impressive/not impressive. Does this guy have a 70%+ winrate vs. Zerg on this map because he's a baller, or because he's played mediocre zergs? Is this the kind of build that can change the meta-game, or is it a one-off thing that won't ever reach the mainstream? Connect the build we're seeing with other builds by other players, or with other builds by the same player. Discuss his/her map preferences. Make predictions on the outside possibilities of the build (and don't be afraid if you're wrong). Talk about the team the player is on: are the people who are his/her practice partners reflected in his/her play? Do Zergs on Woongjin prefer this style over another? Anecdotal evidence is just that. I watch SC with some people, who all agree that the main problem is a lack of professionalism. I've tried introducing casuals/non-players to it and they say that they can't take it seriously. One person's preference is another person's bugaboo/pet peeve. But the fact is that striving for more professionalism, more insight, more game knowledge, more player exposure is good. Artosis and Tasteless are, in some ways, the absolute best of the western casters. They have a very good rapport, they are both extremely comfortable when doing it, and they are both very knowledgeable. But in some ways they fall behind other casters. They go outside of the game too often, they get into too much of a back-and-forth with each other, and they sometimes miss opportunities to point out an interesting facet of the game at hand. None of these are horrible flaws, not even bad flaws. But they can tighten up their performance, just like anyone can do a bit better at what they are doing. Obviously they should stick with their own personal style, but refining their style should always be the goal. The same goes for every caster. In general, the mainstream is always less personal and more professional. This is because there is such a broad range of opinions among the masses that going too far off in one direction alienates a large part of the audience, even if it satisfies another large part. It's like with restaurants or retail stores. Smaller, hole-in-the-wall places can take the risk of having less professional, more outlandish staff. They have a smaller customer base and so don't have to appeal to everyone. Bigger, more traditional stores cannot take that risk. If you walk into a trendy, hole-in-the-wall resteraunt and see a server with pink hair and nose-rings, chances are you'll say: "Wow! How original and trendy!" If you walk into a chain restaurant, or more traditional, up-scale place, chances are you'll say: "Huh. Why is this weirdo serving me food?" It's all about reaching the consumer that is buying your product. At the moment, SC, and e-sports in general, are very small. They are a tiny niche in the sporting world. But the goal of most people involved with the running and growth of e-sports is to eventually have it become a mainstream activity with a large, diverse audience of both hard-core fans and casuals. In order to achieve that goal, everyone involved has to become more professional, and sadly, take less risks. This will certainly alienate some hard-core fans, but that is the price a mainstream business always has to pay, and a balance they always have to strive for: satisfying the casuals and the not-so-casuals. At the moment, Tasteless and Artosis are almost perfect for what e-sports is. They are popular, young, and connect with their audience very well. But as (if) the scene grows, so must their casting. I have no doubt that they will always stick with their own style, and that is good, but they will also want to refine the style to become more and more appealing to a broader and broader audience. | ||
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HornyHerring
Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
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therabit
795 Posts
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: Just to make a comment on caster quality overall I feel like bringing excitement to the viewer is very important. Sweden's by far most popular sports-commentator Lasse Granqvist works for national radio and has gained his popularity for being able to cover action greatly by speaking very fast (once again, it's radio), but most of all because he delivers every sports moment with huge feeling. I don't want to hear the casters casually say "Oh. That was a bad battle. Expect gg any second." after an engagement. I want them them to yell it out! Especially during the actual battle. I think TobiWanKenobi is a great example of a good E-sports caster with real passion. Agreeing with that 100%. In so many casts now (Code S) I was missing a Khaldor-like caster yelling, getting excited hearing his head explodes. And Tobi is good yea but who I like WAY more is HoNCasts very own BreakyCPK, this guy knows how to make a casts exciting like hell! | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On April 13 2013 11:48 IAmSlide wrote: After a game show me why someone won or lost. Below is a screen shot of a clumped Terran army standing under a storm. Show me the moment and a drawing of how the Terran should have split his army. I don't like too much analysis, I want to be entertained, not educated. I also don't think that this kind of analysis is helpful, as the real issue could have been a decision in the early game, forcing the player then to stay on the wrong tech path so that he had marines versus storms which should not happen in the first place. The only thing I really don't like about the current GSL commentating is the early "that game should be over", "expect GG any moment" and so on. The casters tell me that I suddenly don't need to pay attention anymore. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
I could for example tell you that Goody doesn't get many midgame wins because he tends to do timing pushes followed by very slow mech play which doesn't allow for constant aggression. Therefore once the first twelve minutes are over we can be pretty sure this game will take a while longer. That's just way easier to absorb than "he has a 30% winrate in games that end between 15min and 20min" which is not needed. It also adds tension as we feel like the 10min early push we're seeing is supposed to do a lot because he will macro up after. Can he do what he needs to? Is there something that could threaten him afterwards? Journalism is close to commentating there as you don't cite every source you have. You just have them. | ||
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