Purpose: The goal of this thread is to offer constructive criticism for Starcraft production. Things are really starting to pick up in e-sports lately due to the HOTS release, WCS, and a number of other factors. The GSL is now broadcast from a beautiful million dollar studio. So much is going on and things are very exciting right now. E-sports are on the brink of going mainstream, but the production level is severely lacking when you compare it to mainstream sports, games, and competitions. In this thread I will offer criticism, meant to be constructive, of things that are broadcast now as well as suggestions for things that can be added to the broadcast to make it more professional and even better than it is today. This may come off as overly critical of GSL. I don't want it to be, I love GSL and what they do is above everyone else except for recent MLG.
It happens in almost every game; big gaps of time where the two players are just focusing on building and not fighting. It's the part of the game where the casters talk about their favorite flavor of pop tart or which Pokemon they would be if they could choose one or what superpower they would want. I paid $20 for this season of GSL/WCS, some people paid $40. These discussions have no place in a Starcraft broadcast. Downtime is not unique to Starcraft, Baseball, Football (American), Soccer, Poker, and every other live broadcast competition and sport have downtime at some point or another. Unlike Starcraft, they fill the time with stats, highlights, and informational pieces.
GSL does an exceptional job of providing the viewer with stats. They give match-up win-rates broken down by map and game length. Awesome stuff, but it's just flashed on the bottom of the screen. Sometimes the casters point it out and say things like “Wow, according to those stats MC is really good in games that are shorter than 17 minutes”. It really seems like the casters don't know what stats will be displayed on the screen until they actually see them on screen. The games for GSL are known well in advance, the casters should have all of the stats well ahead of time so that they can talk intelligently about the stats. Then they can say things like “DRG wins 72% of his ZvT games that last between 15 and 22 minutes because he really excels with Mutalisk harassment and Zergling/Baneling control.” Mixed Martial Arts has stats like significant strikes landed, # of take downs landed, # of take downs attempted. These stats tell the story of both a fight and of a fighter. Did you know that Georges St-Pierre has a career take down accuracy of 75%, best of all time, and the 5th place guy is 10% worse than him? That's a stat that tells me he is really good at taking people down. Starcraft can and should have the same kind of stats tracked and displayed during broadcasts. Imagine if instead of talking about what their favorite RPG is, they showed and discussed a graphic like the one below.
Next up is highlights. Most of these guys aren't unknowns, especially in the later stages of a tournament or in the Premier bracket for WCS. Show me a short clip of a cast where someone does sick micro. Show me the final seconds of Symbol qualifying for the GSL finals. Show me MVP winning his first GSL and then the camera shots of him in the booth afterward. Show me a 100 supply killing Archon toilet. The clips should obviously be from the players in the game and utilize picture in picture so I don't miss any action from the current game.
Finally, show me things that are informational and educational. Does Parting have an opening he usually does in PvT? Show me the build order on screen, tell me why he likes it, and what is different about it from other PvT builds. Show me how I should pre-split my bio-force when I try to hold a location in TvZ vs a Baneling/Infestor player.
These are just a few suggestions on how to fill the downtime in SC2 and make broadcasts appear more professional
Show it to me, all of it. If someone is dropping in two places at once, show me both locations using split screen or picture in picture. Multipronged attacks are a common occurrence, show me all the pieces. Our Terran player is dropping the Zerg 3rd while the Zerg's Mutalisks are killing SCVs in the Terran's main? Show me both at the same time. It's not new technology, show it all to me. MLG uses this a little bit, but not nearly enough. Everybody should be doing it, all the time.
After a game show me why someone won or lost. Below is a screen shot of a clumped Terran army standing under a storm. Show me the moment and a drawing of how the Terran should have split his army.
This is meant to start a discussion on how to improve e-sports broadcasts, not be a “do this” article. These are just a few thoughts I had, while listening to the pop-tart discussion the other day. I think SC2 is in a good place, but we can do better. I'd love to get input from the community as well as the content producers to make this a constructive conversation.
As for the drawing on screen and picture in picture, it is difficult to coordinate that sort of thing in SC2 as opposed to professional sports where there are many different cameras, as well as a full-fledged production crew. As SC2 has real-time action unlike some sports where there is a lot of downtime between plays, as well as the amount of clutter on screen there might be with textures of units, environments, etc, its not that great to look at. Yes, this sort of thing will probably be implemented in the future, but it takes figuring out.
There have been countless discussion on how to improve production and showcasing of events, but it takes time. IMO WCS Europe and most Dreamhacks were/are amazing in prod. value and itll only get better in the future.
On April 13 2013 11:48 IAmSlide wrote: Imagine if instead of talking about what their favorite RPG is, they showed and discussed a graphic like the one below.
At some point, it would get much more boring. There is a limit on how much stats most people can care about, and some people dont want statistics at all.
Also when i followed x-country skiing there was plenty of yapping about weather, scenery and what happened to this athlete at his hotel room, and so on so starcraft is not alone in filling downtime with chitchat.
... that said, it would be nice if casters could pull up stats on demand every now and then to talk about those - some of that downtime could indeed use more stats.
On April 13 2013 12:34 rename wrote: At some point, it would get much more boring. There is a limit on how much stats most people can care about, and some people dont want statistics at all.
Also when i followed x-country skiing there was plenty of yapping about weather, scenery and what happened to this athlete at his hotel room, and so on so starcraft is not alone in filling downtime with chitchat.
... that said, it would be nice if casters could pull up stats on demand every now and then to talk about those - some of that downtime could indeed use more stats.
That's true, but weather is still relevant to x-country skiing and talking about what happened to an athlete in the hotel is relevant to what is happening. Pop tarts and RPGs have nothing to do with Starcraft or the people playing.
I would be very surprised if even the leagues themselves are not already thinking about what you are talking about.
The issue in esports is that the production crews are by no means on the same level as NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. etc. etc.
Lets just take the idea of not missing any action and what that would take to accomplish.
1) You need to have probably a minimum of 3 obs. 2) You need a guy to direct all 3 of those obs so they are not looking at the same thing. 3) You need to make sure you are recording all 3 views. 4) You have to have the tech in place to instantly recall any of the feeds without disrupting the main broadcast. 5) To make those feeds relevant you need screens showing the live feed to the commentators so they see what the audience sees. 6) etc. etc.
The point is it's easy to say, have picture and picture don't miss anything, I want lines drawn all over the place. It's much harder for an esports production to afford the massive amount of resources it takes to bring all of that to the production, and not cut somewhere else.
So for instance, you can have massive production or tastosis? you can have massive production, but half the prize pool.
I don't think there is a league in their right mind who would not do all of these things if they thought esports and their budget was at a place they could be capable of it.
TLDR: They already know all of this and it's more a matter of the financials being their to make it viable then the will to do so.
I think esport broadcasts are fine in sc2, atleast in the GSL. The audience is different on the net, sure there are people who would like it differently, but the majority likes random discussions. And after some started to fill their down time with post game analyses, there was a big argument about it and many disliked it. Probably more negative comments at that time, then when they did show nothing at all. Reason should be because if they show nothing people do something else. But it is all personal taste, I don't think GSL could change alot to make it more entertaining for me.
Also the OP wants way to much analysis, they could hardly fit this into the downtimes with unknown length. And the amount of work you would have to analyze 4 players that deeply would exceed a week of full work (and if it would be so easy to get informations like this of a player, they would be in serious trouble facing their opponents). And hype Videos everywhere would really mess up the quality of those :o .
Also nothing is worse then having to stop in the middle of explaining something about the game and you will never get the chance to pick it up again.
It happens in almost every game; big gaps of time where the two players are just focusing on building and not fighting. It's the part of the game where the casters talk about their favorite flavor of pop tart or which Pokemon they would be if they could choose one or what superpower they would want. I paid $20 for this season of GSL/WCS, some people paid $40. These discussions have no place in a Starcraft broadcast. Downtime is not unique to Starcraft, Baseball, Football (American), Soccer, Poker, and every other live broadcast competition and sport have downtime at some point or another. Unlike Starcraft, they fill the time with stats, highlights, and informational pieces.
You do realize that Pop Tart chat is what makes Tasteless and Artosis so popular, right
GOM has been interacting with and receiving feedback from its foreign audience for years, so it's not as if they're oblivious to everything you're talking about. They're not going to fix what isn't broken
I wouldn't say I agree with any of these criticisms.
For one thing, the "making buildings" aspect of the game is a huge aspect.. It's called macro and it can decided how a game will pan out.
A criticism of professional sports are the overabundance of useless stats that they use to fill time. It's unnecessary filler, and light banter between the casters doesn't hurt the enjoyment of the game.
Even with there funny conversations, there is a clear difference in knowledge in the game of starcraft from them over every other caster out there, Mainly I mean artosis...There Artosis and tasteless chemistry is great and there conversations are funny. My only complaint is when tasteless says something completely wrong and Artosis goes into a dead silence like, um thats wrong but ill just agree.
Good points. On the first one i kinda don't mind the random talk between casters during the buildup early game period. More stats and stuff would be good but sometimes casters talk about interesting things/stories/etc. that make me lols . Proleague does well with putting in old BW background on stuff I think and they give some stats in this time period usually but more would be good I suppose.
But mainly the picture in picture is good and MLG does decently well with it but haven't seen it anywhere else. The lull between games is kinda a necessary evil. Like in GSTL it gives teams time to decide who to play, what map, discuss strats, similar with FPL but limited to discussing strats and stuff. Between matches of a set need a small break for players to think things over, drink their monster or wtvr. Downtime is also where they put the ads in which pay for our SC broadcasts in addition to subs so while as a spectator, minimizing downtime would be good I'm not sure there's a lot moer they can do about it and i feel it is soemwhat necessary.
MLG does the analysis part pretty well. The lull is needed but sometimes it is definetly too long. An insta replay like some tournies have done would be cool too. The multi screens some tournies have been trying to do at the same time haven't been effective imo.
I do think there is some merit to the downtime and lull, but like many have said, I have a feeling much of this isn't a mystery to production teams. GSL continues to step up production every season, and its like vultdylan said, this kind of stuff takes a lot of time. I do LOVE the idea of highlights early game, I think that would be a great idea, or even for downtime.
Downtime is the worst issue for me, just sitting staring at the same interview or a screen with music is a terrible way to kill upwards of 30 minutes. Some kind of live content, maybe just like audience interviews or something? Anything to keep things interesting.
Honestly, when we talk about the "Professionalism" of e-sports, I actually really like how sometimes SC2 can just be silly. Its a completely different demographic than traditional sports, with younger crowds to appeal to, and a lot more "relaxed" roots. So in that regard, I like the idle banter of casters between games and everything.
but....... if they optimize it.. how will the casters be able to get their 100k followers ? :S u arent saying that they should promote the players are you?! THATS STUPID. CASTERS NEED FOLLOWERS
Nice ideas and all, I am sure leagues are working on it. MLG actually had a good management of down time. I actually don't mind downtime as long as its like not random 30 minutes. but like 10-15 minutes is ok So i can walk around do stuff. Your feedback is really nothing new we all have said that.
Nice talk. FYI, the Korean broadcast doesn't talk about Pokemon or some other sort in the very early stages of the game. The Korean casters for GSL are actually much more "professional" (if professional means not talking about Pokemon or some other stuff during the downtime of games) than the global-stream casters. Whenever I tune in for the global stream, I wish they can be as formal as the Korean stream. However, this doesn't mean I don't love Artosis+Tasteless or Wolf+Khaldor, I love all four of them! They are doing a pretty amazing job nevertheless.
on point number 1 - I guess its hard for tournaments to find a balance. I love the tastosis banter, I also like how axeltoss talks about likely strategy a player will use or khaldor always brings up stats and i like that too. Its true it can be more professional or on topic.. just how much do you want to sacrifice. Or where to find the balance.
2) on point two.. would be awesome if the bigger tourneys could do this. Having several observers linked with their production crew and communicating under a director or head obs to carry this out. Definitely would be an awesome improvement.
on 3) I definitely agree. MLG's RoE (Rules of Engagement) does exactly that, where axeltoss goes over a game that was just played and analyzes it in super detail. he also does the drawing on screen etc. I feel that as more professional players retire or enter the casting scene (ie InControl etc.) casters will have the high level gameplay knowledge to analyze this on the spot or immediately after a game.
I don't agree with you at all... There's a difference between taking yourself too seriously and being serious about being successful. I don't think any of your proposed changes would increase viewership in Starcraft. I love tastosis discussions.
best way to let them know something isn't acceptable to you is either don't buy it or go to their website feedback. I completely disagree, as is. tasteless and artosis without meaningless poptart references wouldn't be the same. I don't think that they are perfect, I do think they can and will get better, but I like what they do. Try to leave feedback somewhere useful rather than stating here that something has no place in a starcraft broadcast. They have found a place and it is widely accepted. Speak for you not everyone.
although you ve made a lot of good points i would like to suggest you to cast or observe a live game by yourself. Some of your points are vaild...for example catching two drops via split screen...but this is not as easy as it sounds production wise.
I disagree with the idea of GSL filling in lull periods with statistics or informational pieces just because traditional sports do so. This is not a traditional sport. We have a very unique audience, and historically speaking most people find Tastosis' banter entertaining. Why try and make things too serious and attempt to fit in with traditional sports? As much as I want Starcraft and eSports to be accepted in the west, I don't feel like we have to remove the light-heartedness that's made me enjoy it so much to achieve that.
I agree fully with the OP. There was pretty much an outrage in the Twitch chat during one of the Code S broadcasts, because Tasteless just kept bringing up irrelevant subjects, not giving Artosis a chance to say anything related to StarCraft 2 for almost 10 minutes into a game.
Why does there have to be such huge downtime between matches? I understand the need for a gap between the matches for players to get settled in or just re-focus for a new game. However, they should try to keep filling this gap with some kind of discussion, analysis or at least some SC2-related content. I don't want to sit and watch a schedule while listening to stock music for 30% of the time I'm watching the stream. On televised soccer matches, the studio people have no problem of talkning about the game for 15 minutes straight (unless there are commercials). Even if the Korean audience get's commercials, we don't.
I feel like the big difference is how much the casters/studio-experts have been studying for the game(s). A sports analysist is expected to know a ton of facts about the athletes and/or teams playing that day. It is their job, after all. Sometimes I feel like most top-level StarCraft 2 casters only talk about players from their "own experience", meaning games they have casted themself and games they have casually watched in their spare time. Some casters doesn't even seem to have those kinds of facts to provide us with.
Just to make a comment on caster quality overall I feel like bringing excitement to the viewer is very important. Sweden's by far most popular sports-commentator Lasse Granqvist works for national radio and has gained his popularity for being able to cover action greatly by speaking very fast (once again, it's radio), but most of all because he delivers every sports moment with huge feeling. I don't want to hear the casters casually say "Oh. That was a bad battle. Expect gg any second." after an engagement. I want them them to yell it out! Especially during the actual battle. I think TobiWanKenobi is a great example of a good E-sports caster with real passion.
I actually agree with the idea about multiple observers. If GOM would be able to get hold of and afford enough people, I think 3 observers would be great. 2 of the observers focus on one player each. Staying inside their base (close to CC/Nex/Hatch) at all times. The 3rd caster focuses on the area inbetween bases for battles, proxies or general army movements. If told to by some director, these casters can break their roles focusing on multiple drops in the same base for example.
I got this idea from some blog, which I sadly cannot link to because I forgot where I read it, but it would be nice if some tournaments start experimenting - from just showing the player's faces - on finding a good way to show the player's keyboard and mouse, in a way that highlights the incredible mechanics needed to play this game at a high level (I know, still nothing compared to broodwar, but it still beats all other competitive games out there). I think it is incredibly hard to find a non-obstrusive way to do it, but it would be nice it if could be pulled off.
On points 1 and 3, I completely agree. It's a matter of professionalism vs. amateurism. While a small, hard-core audience might care about the banter between two casters, the casual outsider will just see it as unprofessional, which will fit in with the stereotype that professional e-sports is just kids playing video games. You can tell people all about the $100,000+ prize pools and the dedication of the players and teams: but it won't matter if it still looks like it's being produced by a college student in his basement. At some point, the hard-core audience has to make a decision to either appeal to the masses or to remain a small, hardcore audience. Appealing to the masses will in no way guarantee that the masses will ever accept it, or that it will grow; but refusing to up the professionalism will absolutely guarantee that no mainstream growth will ever occur.
As for analysis between games: this is huge. Showing us why someone lost, in detail, or why someone won, is vitally important for the casual fan to connect with the players and the game. It really wouldn't be too expensive, and it would help enormously for the uninitiated, so to speak, to understand what they just saw and what to look for in the future.
As for your number 2, I'm not so into that idea. I've noticed that an inherent and unsolvable problem with Starcraft is that it can be ridiculously confusing to follow for a person who doesn't play a lot, or at all. With all the stuff going on the screen at once already, adding even more pop-outs and pop-ups and jump-cuts would be extremely distracting. I prefer the observer to just do his/her best at following the action, sometimes breaking away to show some important piece of side information, like a drop or missed upgrade.
On a side note, I will suggest a couple other ideas/criticisms:
Minimum of three casters for major productions:
GSL Code S, MLG, etc. This helps keep the back-and-forth inside joke stuff down and it also forces the casters to decide on specific rolls each person must play. One is play-by-play, the other is a strategy/analysis, and one is player/team/coach/map/stats information. Obviously, any one can jump in and comment on something, or bring attention to something, but sticking to a basic guideline keeps you on-topic and eliminates the talking over each other during battles. I notice that Korean PL does this, and honestly, even not being able to understand the language, you can just tell that they are more professional, and therefore more accessible, than any western caster at the moment.
Player/coach interaction:
Proleague does this a little bit already, but I think everyone needs to do a little more, and better. Get a person who interviews everyone and run pieces of those interviews between games. Also have them talk about interviews during the down-time of the game itself. An example:
"You know, I was talking to Taeja before this match, and he said he was feeling really confident lately about his TvZ."
"I was speaking with Coach Park a while ago, and he was extremely excited about Hero's gateway expands."
"Interviewing Mvp was a real treat; he assured me that we would be seeing him in his top form today."
"Apparently, DRG is feeling a little nervous about his muta control, we'll have to watch out for that in this upcoming match."
It helps us connect with the player in the booth, the coach outside the booth, and the game being played to hear this kind of stuff. And it's a good way to shuffle through downtime without breaking topic.
At the end of the day, everybody has their own opinion on what it should be or what it shouldn't be; but the standard is the standard for a reason. And E-sports are not so different from "real" sports that the standard is suddenly completely changed. The fact is: more professional = higher quality = better viewing experience for the masses.
On April 13 2013 13:27 Tayar wrote: idle chit-chat is a time honored tradition in sports broadcasting. the real issue is the downtime between games.
The problem with idle chit-chat is that it sounds like they are bored with the game. Which makes me bored with the game. From a purely objective level, there is no real reason for idle chit-chat other than laziness/inexperience. I get that people like it, but it's actually a huge no-no in broadcasting for a reason.
I get the feeling that a lot of people just don't like the idea that what they have isn't the absolute best that it could ever be. There is no caster that cannot massively improve their casting. No one is perfect, and through no fault of their own, SC casters especially are not perfect. They can all improve, a lot, and more professionalism is not a bad thing.
I remember people freaking out over the suit/tie combo, saying that they hated it; but honestly, it's not even optional. You can't expect people to take you seriously if you don't look serious.
Do you know why Tastosis is the most popular casting duo in Starcraft? It is because they know when to talk about other things and make jokes- It is what keeps the cast interesting. Most of us know that life is frikin good. We don't need stats to tell us that. If they showed stats every game it would get boring. For me and for many others- the best part of Code S is the jokes from Tasteless during the down time.
On April 13 2013 13:07 Ikris wrote: I wouldn't say I agree with any of these criticisms.
For one thing, the "making buildings" aspect of the game is a huge aspect.. It's called macro and it can decided how a game will pan out.
A criticism of professional sports are the overabundance of useless stats that they use to fill time. It's unnecessary filler, and light banter between the casters doesn't hurt the enjoyment of the game.
sums up my feelings quite nicely about the subject.
I think to be honest that so many people are focusing on making E-sports a "sport". No. This is wrong. E-sports is esports, those who watch/enjoy it all enjoy gaming in general. We are not sportsman for the most part, nor should we mold the way we broadcast our tournaments to fit sporting standards. Football or Rugby viewers for the most part wont watch SC2 tournaments, likewise SC2 tournament watchers wouldn't watch football or rugby as often.
What I'm trying to say is e-sports is e-sports, not a sport. Lets keep it like that.
On April 13 2013 11:48 IAmSlide wrote: The next problem: Action Show it to me, all of it. If someone is dropping in two places at once, show me both locations using split screen or picture in picture. Multipronged attacks are a common occurrence, show me all the pieces. Our Terran player is dropping the Zerg 3rd while the Zerg's Mutalisks are killing SCVs in the Terran's main? Show me both at the same time. It's not new technology, show it all to me. MLG uses this a little bit, but not nearly enough. Everybody should be doing it, all the time.
EG Masters Cup was the production that originally pioneered the picture-in-picture, I think. Shout out to Sir Scoots!
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: I agree fully with the OP. There was pretty much an outrage in the Twitch chat during one of the Code S broadcasts, because Tasteless just kept bringing up irrelevant subjects, not giving Artosis a chance to say anything related to StarCraft 2 for almost 10 minutes into a game.
I get your point, but I dunno if that's the best example to use. Because Tasteless and Artosis "wasting time" during downtime is actually pretty darned entertaining most of the time. And they are the best in the business when it comes to being funny and entertaining while nothing much is going on. It's all too rare in SC2 casting and they should be commended for it.
But in other leagues, downtime is a huge problem, I agree. NASL is pretty good with downtime, though.
OP I don't agree with #1 at all, which seems to be your main critique.
I play a LOT of starcraft, and even I get really bored when casters speak in nothing but numbers. A few key numbers can be interesting, but if someone gets gas at 16 instead of 17, I really couldn't give fewer fucks. I feel like that's what the stats breakdown would inevitably lead to. Sure, it would work in maybe 1 game. But you're casting a best of 7 between the same two players, there simply aren't enough interesting numbers to talk about. At some point you're going to have to fall back on banter and other stuff to fill the time.
This is coming from someone who takes starcraft pretty seriously too. I watch some tournaments with my RL friends who are all casuals or don't even play. Their favorite casters by far are Tasteless/Artosis. Not even close. They complain every time there's a tournament without these two. So, if number overload can drive off active SC2 players, just think what it will do to our casual viewers.
Great post. I agree with all the main points of the OP. I cringe every time I hear "Ask me a question". Artosis and Tasteless seem like nice enough guys, but I watch GSL for the amazingly skillful Starcraft on display, not to learn what the caster's favourite type of donut is.
Professional broadcasters of other sports fill downtime with banter too, but it's banter about the game and the players. Because that's what most people are there to watch. Of course, it's easier to talk about your favourite donut than to informatively discuss players, teams, games, stats, analysis, past highlights and future predictions.
On April 13 2013 18:44 mrRoflpwn wrote: For me and for many others- the best part of Code S is the jokes from Tasteless during the down time.
Well, perhaps you can petition Tastosis to start their own twitch channel devoted to their hilarious humour. How about "Two nerds awkwardly pretend to laugh at each other's "jokes", while continually telling each other how funny they are" as a working title. Should be an internet hit...
On April 13 2013 18:58 TrickyGilligan wrote: OP I don't agree with #1 at all, which seems to be your main critique.
I play a LOT of starcraft, and even I get really bored when casters speak in nothing but numbers. A few key numbers can be interesting, but if someone gets gas at 16 instead of 17, I really couldn't give fewer fucks. I feel like that's what the stats breakdown would inevitably lead to. Sure, it would work in maybe 1 game. But you're casting a best of 7 between the same two players, there simply aren't enough interesting numbers to talk about. At some point you're going to have to fall back on banter and other stuff to fill the time.
This is coming from someone who takes starcraft pretty seriously too. I watch some tournaments with my RL friends who are all casuals or don't even play. Their favorite casters by far are Tasteless/Artosis. Not even close. They complain every time there's a tournament without these two. So, if number overload can drive off active SC2 players, just think what it will do to our casual viewers.
It's not number overload if it's done correctly. Don't just say: "He got gas at 17 instead of 16." Don't just point out a 56.7859696% win-rate against toss. Actively connect the statistics with game-play trends, player trends, map trends. Talk about why this player prefers this build, or is this player going outside his/her normal build "comfort zone". Ask your fellow caster what about the win-rate does he find impressive/not impressive. Does this guy have a 70%+ winrate vs. Zerg on this map because he's a baller, or because he's played mediocre zergs? Is this the kind of build that can change the meta-game, or is it a one-off thing that won't ever reach the mainstream? Connect the build we're seeing with other builds by other players, or with other builds by the same player. Discuss his/her map preferences. Make predictions on the outside possibilities of the build (and don't be afraid if you're wrong). Talk about the team the player is on: are the people who are his/her practice partners reflected in his/her play? Do Zergs on Woongjin prefer this style over another?
Anecdotal evidence is just that. I watch SC with some people, who all agree that the main problem is a lack of professionalism. I've tried introducing casuals/non-players to it and they say that they can't take it seriously. One person's preference is another person's bugaboo/pet peeve. But the fact is that striving for more professionalism, more insight, more game knowledge, more player exposure is good. Artosis and Tasteless are, in some ways, the absolute best of the western casters. They have a very good rapport, they are both extremely comfortable when doing it, and they are both very knowledgeable. But in some ways they fall behind other casters. They go outside of the game too often, they get into too much of a back-and-forth with each other, and they sometimes miss opportunities to point out an interesting facet of the game at hand. None of these are horrible flaws, not even bad flaws. But they can tighten up their performance, just like anyone can do a bit better at what they are doing. Obviously they should stick with their own personal style, but refining their style should always be the goal. The same goes for every caster.
In general, the mainstream is always less personal and more professional. This is because there is such a broad range of opinions among the masses that going too far off in one direction alienates a large part of the audience, even if it satisfies another large part. It's like with restaurants or retail stores. Smaller, hole-in-the-wall places can take the risk of having less professional, more outlandish staff. They have a smaller customer base and so don't have to appeal to everyone. Bigger, more traditional stores cannot take that risk. If you walk into a trendy, hole-in-the-wall resteraunt and see a server with pink hair and nose-rings, chances are you'll say: "Wow! How original and trendy!" If you walk into a chain restaurant, or more traditional, up-scale place, chances are you'll say: "Huh. Why is this weirdo serving me food?" It's all about reaching the consumer that is buying your product.
At the moment, SC, and e-sports in general, are very small. They are a tiny niche in the sporting world. But the goal of most people involved with the running and growth of e-sports is to eventually have it become a mainstream activity with a large, diverse audience of both hard-core fans and casuals. In order to achieve that goal, everyone involved has to become more professional, and sadly, take less risks. This will certainly alienate some hard-core fans, but that is the price a mainstream business always has to pay, and a balance they always have to strive for: satisfying the casuals and the not-so-casuals. At the moment, Tasteless and Artosis are almost perfect for what e-sports is. They are popular, young, and connect with their audience very well. But as (if) the scene grows, so must their casting. I have no doubt that they will always stick with their own style, and that is good, but they will also want to refine the style to become more and more appealing to a broader and broader audience.
Didn't read the entire OP, can't right now, but afaik korean casters don't talk about random bullshit in those boring times, it's foreigner-exclusive, everyone does that coz Tastosis are.
I agree with many of your points OP. Another thing that I think would be easy to implement is instant replay and have obs on player cam at all time so you can show what the player was doing during the moment( you don't really need dedicated obs for this just have machine recording player cam). There're many time where I missed an amazing split or clutch micro, if there's instant replay it would make viewing more entertaining
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: Just to make a comment on caster quality overall I feel like bringing excitement to the viewer is very important. Sweden's by far most popular sports-commentator Lasse Granqvist works for national radio and has gained his popularity for being able to cover action greatly by speaking very fast (once again, it's radio), but most of all because he delivers every sports moment with huge feeling. I don't want to hear the casters casually say "Oh. That was a bad battle. Expect gg any second." after an engagement. I want them them to yell it out! Especially during the actual battle. I think TobiWanKenobi is a great example of a good E-sports caster with real passion.
Agreeing with that 100%. In so many casts now (Code S) I was missing a Khaldor-like caster yelling, getting excited hearing his head explodes. And Tobi is good yea but who I like WAY more is HoNCasts very own BreakyCPK, this guy knows how to make a casts exciting like hell!
On April 13 2013 11:48 IAmSlide wrote: After a game show me why someone won or lost. Below is a screen shot of a clumped Terran army standing under a storm. Show me the moment and a drawing of how the Terran should have split his army.
I don't like too much analysis, I want to be entertained, not educated. I also don't think that this kind of analysis is helpful, as the real issue could have been a decision in the early game, forcing the player then to stay on the wrong tech path so that he had marines versus storms which should not happen in the first place.
The only thing I really don't like about the current GSL commentating is the early "that game should be over", "expect GG any moment" and so on. The casters tell me that I suddenly don't need to pay attention anymore.
I think Khaldor excels at this because he always talks to players and coaches and will have nifty tidbits to add to the discussion whenever there's some downtime. That is NOT statistics based though. I don't know where this obsession with stats comes from, probably from American sports because it's not really present when I watch professional sports here in Europe. You might get a little bit of information like % of penalties and such but most of the time the commentators point out stylistic differences and leave it at that. Talking about the actual statistics is not interesting. The meaning is. That's like writing a really cool paper and then spending most time talking about every detail in your sources instead of the connections you could make based on prior research.
I could for example tell you that Goody doesn't get many midgame wins because he tends to do timing pushes followed by very slow mech play which doesn't allow for constant aggression. Therefore once the first twelve minutes are over we can be pretty sure this game will take a while longer. That's just way easier to absorb than "he has a 30% winrate in games that end between 15min and 20min" which is not needed. It also adds tension as we feel like the 10min early push we're seeing is supposed to do a lot because he will macro up after. Can he do what he needs to? Is there something that could threaten him afterwards? Journalism is close to commentating there as you don't cite every source you have. You just have them.
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: I agree fully with the OP. There was pretty much an outrage in the Twitch chat during one of the Code S broadcasts, because Tasteless just kept bringing up irrelevant subjects, not giving Artosis a chance to say anything related to StarCraft 2 for almost 10 minutes into a game.
I get your point, but I dunno if that's the best example to use. Because Tasteless and Artosis "wasting time" during downtime is actually pretty darned entertaining most of the time. And they are the best in the business when it comes to being funny and entertaining while nothing much is going on. It's all too rare in SC2 casting and they should be commended for it.
But in other leagues, downtime is a huge problem, I agree. NASL is pretty good with downtime, though.
I agree that taking the opinions of "stream monsters" too seriously is not a great idea. Just the fact that they are in the chat means they aren't watchin full-screen and might be more interesting in socializing than watching the actual game.
However, I wouldn't call the first 10 minute of a StarCraft 2 game "downtime". Sure, the players are probably mostly following pre-set build orders but there is still a game going on for the casters to commentate on. There is always something happening.
On April 13 2013 18:44 mrRoflpwn wrote: For me and for many others- the best part of Code S is the jokes from Tasteless during the down time.
For me and for many others- the best part of Code S is the professional StarCraft 2 being played.
On April 13 2013 18:50 Skiblet wrote: I think to be honest that so many people are focusing on making E-sports a "sport". No. This is wrong. E-sports is esports, those who watch/enjoy it all enjoy gaming in general. We are not sportsman for the most part, nor should we mold the way we broadcast our tournaments to fit sporting standards. Football or Rugby viewers for the most part wont watch SC2 tournaments, likewise SC2 tournament watchers wouldn't watch football or rugby as often.
What I'm trying to say is e-sports is e-sports, not a sport. Lets keep it like that.
I watch a lot of sports, mainly football and whatever my country has a chance of performing well at. For example cross country skiing, ice hockey and handball. Judging from the amount of sports-related threads on TL, I don't think I'm the only E-sports fan who also watches a lot of traditional sports.
I probably won't say what hasn't already been said, but criticisms in this manner tend to fail to take into account the simple issue of practicality and resource management. All of your suggestions are good ones; and I agree that sometimes a discussion about random american pop culture item during the early stages of a game can get a little silly. When Artosis says "Tasteless, talk to me," and Tasteless just makes up some random nonsense to talk about off the top of his head, that can get pretty awkward at times. However, not all commentator pairs can get away with that, so it seems to have its place in the GSL at the moment.
While your points are good ones, we have to remember that this is in actuality a video game. It doesn't appeal to the same sensibilities as professional football. It's a game that operates under a completely different sphere of entertainment. When budgets grow, functionality increases, and studios will start adapting to new demands. I think you're right though, overall... the time is approaching for the spectator experience to grow (the UI changes are a good step in the right direction) along with the sport in general.
All good points but first off you sound like a spoilt child and secondly all those things cost money. You want picture in picture then you are going to need a second observing computer with someone to at least be able to consistently be around to get the extra shot. Not to mention you have triple pronged attacks so then what? 3 Observing computers just in case. And typically there won't be much interesting to watch at the drop cause the terran will set it up and just jump back to stim and position the units then thats it. Screen space taken up by watching a drop is better spent watching the main engagement imo
And suggestions like your Parting example - well he will play a maximum of 9 games in GSL group play for example. Are casters meant to go over things again and again each match? Then what about next round he plays? Do they assume nobody saw any of the previous matches?
Tastosis only have their random conversations when nothing note worthy is going on - majority of people know exactly what is happening in the opening of a standard ZvP for example but when the zerg decidees he is going to 10 pool the casters will stop and go hang on we have a 10 pool! for example.
Also comparisons to sports like football or baseball etc are not relevant to SC2 i'm sorry. Number of viewers, amount of money as well as number of games played means it simply does not apply.
I don't want picture in picture aka MLG style which can ruin the whole experience especially if you are watching on a computer monitor say like 24" or smaller. I think MLG is the only tournament that are currently using picture in picture to the spectators horror.
I think MLG has clearly proven that picture in picture and over-analyzing replays to death do not improve the viewing experience. Quite the contrary .....
I dislike picture in picture immensely. Having 1 observer creating the viewing experience is enough. It allows me as the viewer to have an easier time following the action that's happening, as well as having the casters have a clear direction in commentating the game. Having more is a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth.
Picture in picture would be awesome (hello, Scoots ) and less downtime would be very much so appreciated... I disagree with the banter, though. Good and funny banter can make or break a caster/duo, imo.
I'm personally more interested in hearing about some awesome game from the past, a funny side-note about some random thing or some jokes rather than: "Well, we see here that Life has a 63% winrate with a very aggressive playstyle... That is a good indicator for him being a total badass player! Something we totally didn't know before, I swear!" or "Flash's average unspent ressources are incredibly low, he is an absolute macro beast! Betcha didn't know that." That is not to say that they shouldn't bring in statistics but rather that I don't think focusing on stats is really important enough to get rid of the awesomeness that is the silliness of good banter.
If there's one thing that totally irks me, it's probably though the excitement in most casts. Raise your voice when something awesome is happening, what's wrong with you? Don't be like "Great fungals on those bio-units, enabling the banelings just melted everything in their path to victory." in this rather monotone-ish analytical voice, be like "Fungal growth on all the bio and HERE COME THE BANELINGS, ROLLING ON IN AND MELTING ABSOLUTELY E-V'RY-THING IN THEIR WAAYYYY! OH MY GOD!". It IS possible to get excited, even if you are/wanna be a "analytical" and knowledgeable caster, so please just give it a try. Or maybe it was just because of the rather stale WoL games that kinda sucked out the life from casters - it did and does kinda get better now with HotS, so maybe that point will become invalid. Well... Or maybe the LCS casters have just re-spoiled (after BW semi-died) me with their level of enthusiasm.
For the lull section I'd prefer to hear more about behind the scenes stuff and how the industry is doing, news etc. rather than statistics game after game.
On April 13 2013 11:48 IAmSlide wrote: Imagine if instead of talking about what their favorite RPG is, they showed and discussed a graphic like the one below.
At some point, it would get much more boring. There is a limit on how much stats most people can care about, and some people dont want statistics at all.
Also when i followed x-country skiing there was plenty of yapping about weather, scenery and what happened to this athlete at his hotel room, and so on so starcraft is not alone in filling downtime with chitchat.
... that said, it would be nice if casters could pull up stats on demand every now and then to talk about those - some of that downtime could indeed use more stats.
I don't really think that's true.
I mean, commentators never really stop talking about player stats and peculiarities in other sports and most fans love it. It gives depth and a sense of expanse to the games. Of course, to those die hard fans who already know the bulk of the information it'd be redundant material... but that's a niche audience that'll be happy with the high level games anyways.
Of course, that's not to say they repeat the player stats and styles and lifestyle choices in the lobby of every game, but hearing it at the ro32 and then having it appropriately referenced throughout the tournament seems like a good idea no matter how I'd look at it.
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: I agree fully with the OP. There was pretty much an outrage in the Twitch chat during one of the Code S broadcasts, because Tasteless just kept bringing up irrelevant subjects, not giving Artosis a chance to say anything related to StarCraft 2 for almost 10 minutes into a game.
I get your point, but I dunno if that's the best example to use. Because Tasteless and Artosis "wasting time" during downtime is actually pretty darned entertaining most of the time. And they are the best in the business when it comes to being funny and entertaining while nothing much is going on. It's all too rare in SC2 casting and they should be commended for it.
But in other leagues, downtime is a huge problem, I agree. NASL is pretty good with downtime, though.
There is no such thing as "downtime" or a time when nothing is going on. Don't believe me? Watch Engine cast the tournament organized by Themarine. There is ALWAYS something to talk about.
One of the biggest problems is that a lot of the casters do not have enough knowledge to properly cast games. Take proleague for example. Sometimes the information they're spewing is so inaccurate, I'm forced to turn off the sound.
My only constructive advice I can think of is to find more qualified casters. I'm sorry to be harsh, but for esports to be successful, we need more professional casters.
Another thing: I do think casters should try to be more like casters in other professional sports. Although it's highly entertaining for us to hear random chit chat between the casters, it's not professional. Again, sorry for being so harsh ^^
Does no one else get bored of watching the same thing happen in TvZ every single game? or TvP? HoTS has spicened things up but most game play out very similarly and its always fun for a little side commentary jokes. Keeps things interesting. I mean its really not that hard to follow the first 5 minutes of a game. If you cant do that then your probably lower than gold and you probably dont really understand the small nuances of a build...
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: Just to make a comment on caster quality overall I feel like bringing excitement to the viewer is very important. Sweden's by far most popular sports-commentator Lasse Granqvist works for national radio and has gained his popularity for being able to cover action greatly by speaking very fast (once again, it's radio), but most of all because he delivers every sports moment with huge feeling. I don't want to hear the casters casually say "Oh. That was a bad battle. Expect gg any second." after an engagement. I want them them to yell it out! Especially during the actual battle. I think TobiWanKenobi is a great example of a good E-sports caster with real passion.
Agreeing with that 100%. In so many casts now (Code S) I was missing a Khaldor-like caster yelling, getting excited hearing his head explodes. And Tobi is good yea but who I like WAY more is HoNCasts very own BreakyCPK, this guy knows how to make a casts exciting like hell!
I fucking hate this. Hearing Klazart for broodwar spout verbal diarrhoea was one of the most painful things ever. He had no insight, and simply yelling what I'm already seeing on screen is not my idea of enjoyment. In the few moments where Tasteless does it, it's terrible. "He's hitting and he's hitting hard!" said at twice the normal volume isn't exciting - moments in game are either exciting or they're not. Yelling doesn't make a difference.
Liking/disliking stats or banter is totally personal. I dislike about half the stats already offered and enjoy the banter.
So do a LOT of other people, which is why they charge so much money to cast a tournament together and why stream numbers are invariably much, much higher when they do.
Like them or not, there is no denying that Tasteless and Artosis are the biggest, most popular casters in SC2 right now.
On April 14 2013 00:33 Lunareste wrote: I like Tastosis banter.
So do a LOT of other people, which is why they charge so much money to cast a tournament together and why stream numbers are invariably much, much higher when they do.
Like them or not, there is no denying that Tasteless and Artosis are the biggest, most popular casters in SC2 right now.
Yeah exactly. The comments in this thread alone show how many people enjoy the banter.
Filling any downtime with (meaningless) stats is such an american thing. Drowning the viewer in stuff, because the broadcaster is afraid they'll flick the channel. This is not the case usually though. Watching tennis for example, there's some stats before the match (ofc), but the match is mostly just tense period of waiting/rapid action. It's fine as it is.
People like Tastosis' banter, no question. But do people like every other combos banter equally? Some caster combos get reemed for not being funny, being awkward, having nothing in common with each other, etc, etc. Would this be a good thing for a league with those casters to up their caster game? Which in turn might filter to other tourneys over time?
For me as viewer, the biggest problem of all is downtime. I once watched the VOD of a major SC2 event, I believe it was MLG, but this applies to all productions. I always skiped the fillers in between games and watched all games without leaving anything out. In the beginning of that session I thought "holy cow, how will I be able to finnish this 13 hour VOD in only one day?!" - then 4 hours later I was set and done.
Out of 13 hours of footage, there where only 4 hours of games. So I have to wait 1 hour to see a game of 20 minutes - on average. I believe this might be worst percentage in any sports ever.
If i think of soccer, there is 30 minutes before the game and 15 minutes within the game, so 45 minutes total of downtime with most of it before the game where I can skip it. But even if I watch it, it is still only 50% of game time, not 325%.
TLDR; Decreasing downtimes would increase my pleasure watching SC2 a lot.
On April 13 2013 16:23 Ejohrik wrote: Just to make a comment on caster quality overall I feel like bringing excitement to the viewer is very important. Sweden's by far most popular sports-commentator Lasse Granqvist works for national radio and has gained his popularity for being able to cover action greatly by speaking very fast (once again, it's radio), but most of all because he delivers every sports moment with huge feeling. I don't want to hear the casters casually say "Oh. That was a bad battle. Expect gg any second." after an engagement. I want them them to yell it out! Especially during the actual battle. I think TobiWanKenobi is a great example of a good E-sports caster with real passion.
Agreeing with that 100%. In so many casts now (Code S) I was missing a Khaldor-like caster yelling, getting excited hearing his head explodes. And Tobi is good yea but who I like WAY more is HoNCasts very own BreakyCPK, this guy knows how to make a casts exciting like hell!
I fucking hate this. Hearing Klazart for broodwar spout verbal diarrhoea was one of the most painful things ever. He had no insight, and simply yelling what I'm already seeing on screen is not my idea of enjoyment. In the few moments where Tasteless does it, it's terrible. "He's hitting and he's hitting hard!" said at twice the normal volume isn't exciting - moments in game are either exciting or they're not. Yelling doesn't make a difference.
Liking/disliking stats or banter is totally personal. I dislike about half the stats already offered and enjoy the banter.
Well, when Tasteless does "get excited" about SC2, it often seems very forced and fake. Compare that to his BW-commentary and there is a huge difference. I miss those times when he was the knowledgeable analysist and really seemed to love the game he was casting...
I like the light banter in the early stages of a game, it allows casters to have a lot more personality than what they would be allowed in any sport. It adds something unique, and I think overflowing it with stats that for the most part isn't that important to my enjoyment
Ive been always critical of english casters in this regard. Moletrap is the only person that i remeber that seemed to have done research prior to game and talk about stats, match up, etc. But you guys hated him for another reason.
The casters i think needa to be more professional, as in youre not improv'ing the casts, do some fucking home work. Some of the casters didnt even know the players korean name
And its th same reasom why i fucking love themarine, he talks to players before game starts to give us insight, studies maps and stats for his casting.
I'm afraid to say you don't quite understand entertainment. Dry stats are terribly boring. Anyone can look them up in Liquipedia, they don't have to be (and shouldn't be) the center of discussion during the show. Showing and discussing stats during a game completely destroys it - the comentators lose their focus on the game itself and start talking about things that happened in another game. When Tastosis talks about Pokemon, at least they stop to say what's in the game. When other casters talk about stats, they just ramble on even during an important engagement. All of your points are valid, but not during the show itself. What you want can only be contained in an entirely separate program like MLG's RoE. When you start to pick a game apart (analyze it), the viewers might be interested for a while to understand why something happened, but they lose the momentum of their own exitement toward the game.
In short: Over-analysis and too much stats destroy your fun. Such things should be done before and after the show in a separate program.
I do agree about the 2 in 1 screens - being able to see drops and such would be nice.
On April 14 2013 00:42 juusoko wrote: Filling any downtime with (meaningless) stats is such an american thing. Drowning the viewer in stuff, because the broadcaster is afraid they'll flick the channel. This is not the case usually though. Watching tennis for example, there's some stats before the match (ofc), but the match is mostly just tense period of waiting/rapid action. It's fine as it is.
Completely agree. If you watch snooker on EuroSport, you'll see almost no stats, and greater viewership than tennis or baseball. Also commentators who are professional players, not journalists who have no idea what they're talking about.
On April 14 2013 00:48 AKnopf wrote: For me as viewer, the biggest problem of all is downtime. I once watched the VOD of a major SC2 event, I believe it was MLG, but this applies to all productions. I always skiped the fillers in between games and watched all games without leaving anything out. In the beginning of that session I thought "holy cow, how will I be able to finnish this 13 hour VOD in only one day?!" - then 4 hours later I was set and done.
Out of 13 hours of footage, there where only 4 hours of games. So I have to wait 1 hour to see a game of 20 minutes - on average. I believe this might be worst percentage in any sports ever.
If i think of soccer, there is 30 minutes before the game and 15 minutes within the game, so 45 minutes total of downtime with most of it before the game where I can skip it. But even if I watch it, it is still only 50% of game time, not 325%.
TLDR; Decreasing downtimes would increase my pleasure watching SC2 a lot.
Watching a MLG is just part of my internet experience that day; I'm doing other stuff and only switch to MLG if something is happening. Not to say that limiting downtime is a bad thing of course.
And I suppose, during games, casters could do other things than just talk pokemon but I actually like the banter. They're real people instead of a lot of the "professional" sports casters.
i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
On April 14 2013 01:32 jinorazi wrote: i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
Stats ARE intersting. But it's the game itself that we watch and try to enjoy, right?
On April 13 2013 23:32 ShatterZer0 wrote: I mean, commentators never really stop talking about player stats and peculiarities in other sports and most fans love it. It gives depth and a sense of expanse to the games. Of course, to those die hard fans who already know the bulk of the information it'd be redundant material... but that's a niche audience that'll be happy with the high level games anyways.
In mainstream sports the casual fan (90%-ish of all fans) likes stats, because he doesn't know them. The hardcore fan (10%-ish of all fans) hates stats, because they're obvious to him. In StarCraft, being a non-mainstream sport, it's pretty much reversed. Therefore, the majority of StarCraft viewers dislike stats being shoved into their eyes and years by people with annoying voices.
On April 14 2013 01:32 jinorazi wrote: i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
Stats ARE intersting. But it's the game itself that we watch and try to enjoy, right?
On April 13 2013 23:32 ShatterZer0 wrote: I mean, commentators never really stop talking about player stats and peculiarities in other sports and most fans love it. It gives depth and a sense of expanse to the games. Of course, to those die hard fans who already know the bulk of the information it'd be redundant material... but that's a niche audience that'll be happy with the high level games anyways.
In mainstream sports the casual fan (90%-ish of all fans) likes stats, because he doesn't know them. The hardcore fan (10%-ish of all fans) hates stats, because they're obvious to him. In StarCraft, being a non-mainstream sport, it's pretty much reversed. Therefore, the majority of StarCraft viewers dislike stats being shoved into their eyes and years by people with annoying voices.
the game is more enjoyable with good casting, for me i dont watch any gsl/gstl because there is no korean available for free, meanwhile i do for proleague because there is one.
I dont know if it has been said. But I love this idea, and The GD studio has already started doing this for Dota. They go over lanes with a magnetic board they have/magnets of the heroes, they tell stats on comebacks, hero percents, which heroes are doing the best in the tourney etc. I believe there are 6 members on their casting squad and it feels like a real production when they do things. I love it,
On April 14 2013 00:42 juusoko wrote: Filling any downtime with (meaningless) stats is such an american thing. Drowning the viewer in stuff, because the broadcaster is afraid they'll flick the channel. This is not the case usually though. Watching tennis for example, there's some stats before the match (ofc), but the match is mostly just tense period of waiting/rapid action. It's fine as it is.
i cant understand how people can actually want more stats in the cast.
to me, as an european, watching american sports is painfull because of all the stats.
actually watching any american televison feels wierd, when you watch a naturedocumentary you dont want to know about the 3.543 inch teeth or the 576 N bitingpower.
The 'downtime' where casters are filling in with random conversation can be one of the best parts of eSports casts imo.
It humanizes a sport that is (by nature) geeky and techy and purely digital. It brings the heart in.
Random funny chatter can capture people's attention to the match ("what the hell are they saying? lol!") that otherwise might ignore a bunch of terminology and numbers that go right over their heads.
I think it would be a sad day if one day all that was sanitized out for the sake of 'professionalism'. Esports should be fun imo. Not a souless corporate business proposition.
More stats, insights based on stats, and pre/post game analysis with onscreen lines (like a football analysis) is more than welcome on the other hand. That is heading in the right direction.
On April 14 2013 01:32 jinorazi wrote: i cant believe a lot of you guys say you dont care for stats...thats fascinating
things like what player did during his last XvX match up, his winning % in that match up, the map statistics, who he won against last time, player condition via pregame interview, etc.
perhaps what english casters are doing is perfectly fine for english listeners ^_^
ogn (or maybe it was mbc) used to do votes on who will win from viewers and progamers, what their game plan is, i wish they would bring that back.
A lot the time the stats you are mentioning are not very meaningful, because the sample size is so small. There's a similar problem in "real" sports, where announcers draw conclusions from data that doesn't signify much at all.
On "the lull," your comparison to other sports isn't really accurate. First, many sports have zero downtime. But among the ones that do have downtime (i.e. American football, basketball, hockey, baseball), the longest bits are filled by commercial breaks, and the short bits are so short you fill it with things like discussing what is actually happening in the game, showing a replay, short comment by a sideline reporter, or a quick chat with a coach.
The more important bit, though, is that SC2 has a long period at the beginning of the game where you only need to be half-watching to keep up, and the only thing that really comes close to that is baseball. And the baseball announcers I'm most familiar with definitely spend several points in the game talking about random stuff, especially when the game is getting away from one team. Hell, the ones here spend an entire half-innings answering fan questions from Twitter, or sticking a headset on a player in the dugout instead of talking about the game. And honestly, it's never bothered me at all, nor struck me as unprofessional. Most statistics that sports broadcasts use are meaningless, and the only people who are fascinated by it are the people who don't get how informative they actually are. That "win percentage between 15 and 22 minutes" is exactly the sort of thing that bothers me about American sports broadcasts... I don't think you need to fill time with that kind of thing.
That said, there have definitely been a couple Tastosis tangents that I thought were really entertaining, but ended up going on so late that there were proxy pylons being placed before they started talking about the game. That's bad.
On April 14 2013 00:43 Falling wrote: People like Tastosis' banter, no question. But do people like every other combos banter equally?
Obviously no. Tastosis & day9 are so big fan favorites it doesn't matter what they do people love it. If there was a stream "watch paint dry with Day9", it would still have a huge audience.
I enjoy the banter, the lion piss thing still tickles me but agree they sometimes go overboard with random topics that seem purely to kill time, and take away from the game. They don't have to do an intense play by play of a standard reaper opening, but having some useful stats, inside knowledge of teams, or styles, or even some history would be nice. Just need to refine the balance I think, and use the quiet times to educate noobs like me a little more while keeping the chemistry flowing.
I like the concept of split screen, but at the last MLG I didn't really like it, execution looked a little off but am glad they're trying it. I did like the post game analysis, think Day9 did the best job of breaking critical spots down informatively but so that noobs could get it too and increase their understanding of the game.
On April 13 2013 11:48 IAmSlide wrote: Imagine if instead of talking about what their favorite RPG is, they showed and discussed a graphic like the one below.
At some point, it would get much more boring. There is a limit on how much stats most people can care about, and some people dont want statistics at all.
Also when i followed x-country skiing there was plenty of yapping about weather, scenery and what happened to this athlete at his hotel room, and so on so starcraft is not alone in filling downtime with chitchat.
... that said, it would be nice if casters could pull up stats on demand every now and then to talk about those - some of that downtime could indeed use more stats.
I completely feel like you. I don't mind casters babbling a bit, I enjoy it unless they repeat it very much etc. However, that doesn't happen much and especially with the casting archon, I personally enjoy it a lot. (I might be in the minority here.)
The pull-stats-on-demand thing I greatly approve of though. Gives more interesting stuff to fill time with.
I'm majoring in TV production and I agree with everything you say. The problem is that most of the older talent that knows how to coordinate all of this doesn't know anything about these events. Dreamhack does a great job with live events, and you touched on how the GSL provides stats and information, but otherwise we really don't see casters doing anything to fill airtime. Everything else has caught up and esports can explode any minute now, there aren't any excuses left that the casters and crews can use to justify not striving for higher standards
for your 'after the game' suggestion-- doesn't axslav already do a similar analysis, down to the overlay with circles and lines? also, in the graphic you show, it doesn't seem like any movement of the terran army would have made a difference whatsoever there. there is just a gaping food and tech differential there. and often times that is the problem, the engagement was decided in the blink of an eye, leaving little to no time for micro. that's a game issue, not a production/analysis issue.
Forget multi-screen, I liked the idea at first, but then I realize how lame that is.
Just skip between the two fights like GSL does it in double pronged harass. In triple pronged, they show the big two prongs, and then show the smaller prong after the two big attacks are finished (usually a drop from a Terran). We get to see the result for the third/smaller prong, like marines/marauders dead/dying and medivac floating about, or exploding after mutas pick it off. This way flows better, gives each attack more attention.
TLDR: If you put more than 1 intense action on the screen at a time, it becomes very difficult on focus.
I'm fine with broadcasters actually. I just ofen dont like the camera control... ^^
Maybe a little off topic but i don't really know why the right-clik is useless in obs/replay?
If you right-click on the minimap, on the ground, or on a unit, it's could be a smooth and nice camera scrolling to the point clicked. It could help caster a lot, facilitate their camera control, for us, the audience^^.
1) As someone pointed out off-hand, the Korean casters are much more scripted and they have a lot more statistics to draw on. I think we're mostly talking about GSL here so the problem there is that the English and Korean casts are so very different. In fact, the main reason why Tastosis is so incredibly popular is because they can do it all. Artosis has a ton of stats and SC2 related stuff (which would be given to a caster by a team in a regular sport) and Tasteless is great at the filler content, not to mention the awesome play-by-play. All three of these would be assisted by a team showing clips and stats and graphs in a regular broadcast. And it's notable that the Korean cast gets a bigger team than the English broadcast.
2) This also will not necessarily reduce banter as the casters have a choice which route to take. When they have something super funny going on, they can ignore the statistics. If they do not, they can discuss them well. I think it's fair to say that Tastosis ignores stats sometimes because they have very funny rants and tons of people like that. I can also imagine TotalControl ignoring stats all the time. But Khaldor is a good example of someone whose jokes, while sometimes hilarious, are generally bad puns, but he does probably the best job of anyone of covering tidbits, stats, latest news and much more. His casts are engaging because he works hard at the job which would really be done by a team for him.
3) What we are eventually talking about is two things: some casts are terrible. Not every pair can be expected to have hilarious synergy while being well versed in stats and information. Those are the caster-pairs that require more production behind them to make it more enjoyable. This means that some audiences are not drawn into SC2. Secondly, even though Tastosis is great, I cannot imagine them being terribly popular among people outside of the staple demographic of SC2. Pokemon jokes, old games, occasional misogyny, immature humour, etc is fine by me (hmmm.. I might have to rethink my life a bit) but it is alienating to many older people, some girls, and other people that are more used to professional interaction. If we want to get SC2 equalized, eventually, with other mainstream media, we need to start experimenting with increasing production value and making the casts more inclusive and more professional. This doesn't mean that we scuttle the banter, but we should try to find a suitable role for it.
Doesn't more observers increase the likelihood of lags/drops/ or other related issues. Remember there's no lan. Doesn't GSL already use like four obs? Kor obs, kor caster, english obs, English caster?
I agree on everything basicly, however point two is harder to accomplish then one and three. I definately think you should have analysis post-game, it's fun to see and not hard to do either. I think Gom has become better on having stats on their cast, but in general i want more, way more. The multiple angles is hard to do live i believe, these guys aren't exactly swimming in money and they'd have to hire more observers + get the technology needed. I want it, but i understand if it's hard. The #1 #3 point isnt really hard to do.
The off-topic banter of Tastosis is one of the reasons I preffer watyching code S to everything elese in SC2. Even though half of the stuff they say is not even funny or does not make any sense, the atmosphere they create is relaxed and friendly.
I still don't really get this idea that SC2 has to be more like a normal sport. I do not like watching normal sports, why would I want SC2 broadcast to mimic anything from them? I do not want to give up what I like about SC2 just for it to be more mainstream.
I really believe that we should leave the casters as they are. tastosis banter is exactly why we love or hate them. Everytime I watch Wolf I am waiting for his Hair comments. they are ridiculous btw. But I always lf to them. I dont want all the casters be the same and similar style. Just leave them be.
Just an example: In russia there is a commentator who is I would say special. He quite often says to people rude things. Some people love him for his honesty, some people hate him for that. Anyway hugely popular figure. And I am sure some people I watching soccer games just because of him. The same with Code S. I am sure some people are tuning in just to listen to Tastosis. They are already a Legend in a SC community, much more popular than most of the players.
Improvement of technical part i think is all about money. . And production crew I am sure has a ton ideas how to improve their broadcast. It's gonna get better as e-sports expands