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I don't understand why Blizzard didn't make any changes when they saw fungals were litterrally killing SC2 and its esport.
Any not-so-dumb guy would at least try to fix this sh*t.
I mean that's why "we want white people to win" is a possible theory...
Something people didn't say yet is that it's difficult to apply a patch while pros are playing GSL, MLG, Dreamhack and everything else. Though they are some downtimes in the tournaments schedule where, I think, Blizzard were forced to try some changes, and they did not. They only tried to say the game is balanced through awkward interviews.
My thoughts about possible changes :
- Fungals snare, don't root anymore (same as concussive shells but with an AoE)
- Fungals cost 100 or 125
- Infested terrans cost 50, not 25
- If Fungals snare, then they could last longer, but deal the same amount of damages after all (6 to 8sec, but only 30 to 35 damages (instead of 30(40) ) )
1 of them, for instance.
From a low gm.
Also, talking about the game being boring for viewers, I think it should be easier to defend and harder to attack. I mean people should be forced to use the multitasking abilities and splitting armies (warp prisms, medivacs, nydus/overlods) to get an advantage. Turtle up and 1 A + imba ability (fungal or storm) shouldnt work at all.
Force the multitask and nerf the 1 A and the game will be enjoyable again.
I may be wrong though 
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I see in the current stage of the game two problems:
The caster aren´t really amazing for visitor and aren´t supporter, more key units for zerg. That caster have a bigger role then other Units it´s for my logical. But it seem weird for my, that whole armies build up of caster, which for my only support units.
The other issue are for my the deathballs. Some games have only 1 Engagement and end then!
Really? Thats sooo bering, that even pros are tried of that.
In my opinion blizzard should take the chance with Hots and revise the whole game. More little fights and tradings must be more attractive. Gamestyls like Snuts look so much better and make the Game more interesting. So, come on Blizzard.
Are not coward, be a hero and give the players more units, more options and revise untis with Hots. Not make an add on with some new units, who didn´t chance the situation enough.
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On December 23 2012 22:44 Synk wrote:
This entire argument of "patch zergs" is so ridiculous and silly. So I guess everyone using this term believes +2 queen range on their ground attack just broke the game and caused this shift in win rates? Get real man, this was all just a slow meta-game shift, probably began by Destiny with his abundant use of infesters with great success. I have nothing against Destiny, but after hearing about his success and watching his games, it was easy to see ( as a higher masters/low gm players ) that I had to start using infesters .... a lot ( I used them pretty much not at all before ). Every other higher level / pro zerg saw the same thing, we all started shifting .. 6 months later we are all abusing the shit out of infesters with every single composition in every single MU.
Point being, the current shift in balance had nothing to do with any patch, and everything to do with a shift in the zerg meta-game where infesters have become more widely used.
Lol, overlord speed was also buff which gave the Zerg almost full scouting in the early game vs Terran. Losing overlords to marines were a huge deal pre patch. And if you don't think the patch change the meta game, please look at how many zergs many zergs made spines at their natural back then and compare to now. Don't tell me that they don't make spine crawlers early game now because they are using infestors...
Yes, infestors were seeing more and more use. But without the buffs to overlord and queens, there were a lot more timings (marine tank, mass bio, maruader hellion) that Terran could hit before infestors were out. Not to mention that creep spread was so much harder when the queens could be kited by hellions.
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Honestly, if the last Homestory Cup didnt show that there is a zerg problem, i dont know what will. We have random no names suddenly doing really well, people who where nothing before. Which results in a top 4 which is zerg. Its obivous that every pro-zerg found a way to exploit the race, which means that the low skill people can now perform.
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On December 24 2012 00:50 Benkestok wrote:
Honestly, if the last Homestory Cup didnt show that there is a zerg problem, i dont know what will. We have random no names suddenly doing really well, people who where nothing before. Which results in a top 4 which is zerg. Its obivous that every pro-zerg found a way to exploit the race, which means that the low skill people can now perform. Snute has been doing well for a long time. Agree with xlord though. He had never done anything really before
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On December 24 2012 00:50 Benkestok wrote:
Honestly, if the last Homestory Cup didnt show that there is a zerg problem, i dont know what will. We have random no names suddenly doing really well, people who where nothing before. Which results in a top 4 which is zerg. Its obivous that every pro-zerg found a way to exploit the race, which means that the low skill people can now perform.
I don't think HSC VI is the best exemple since most of the zergs who did well aren't no name, except maybe Xlord, but Stephano and Symbol were known before and if you've seen Snute's stream you can see that he's really good. The well known player who fall were MC losing to a Protoss and a Terran (Grubby and Kas), MKP but he lost to Stephano so it isn't the biggest surpris of the year and MMA who isn't doing very well lately and who lost to a Snute on fire and Stephano. Symbol only lost to Snute who seems to have a really good ZvZ (without infestor!!!)
However I totally agree that there is an issue with Zerg and for me Blizzard cup/ IPL 5 are more significatif.
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Snute has been doing really well recently (this was just the breakout performance that has been a long time coming so to speak) and there were a lot more high level Zergs in this tournament than Protoss or Terran. Only Xlord seems out of place in terms of the rankings (and maybe Brat_OK as well, definitely caught my attention, I used to be a pretty big fan of his but haven't seen him in awhile). As a Terran who pretty strongly believes TvZ is imbalanced in favor of Zerg atm and PvZ is balanced but stupidly so, HSC VI isn't really indicative of Zerg imbalance despite an all Zerg final four.
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It's gotten to the point no one even cares about balance anymore, they just want a bit of variety. They just want something other then infestors. All matchups involving z have become incredibly boring.
When you compare it to other more successful esports where you have variation in every single game
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On December 23 2012 22:44 Synk wrote:
This entire argument of "patch zergs" is so ridiculous and silly. So I guess everyone using this term believes +2 queen range on their ground attack just broke the game and caused this shift in win rates? Get real man, this was all just a slow meta-game shift, probably began by Destiny with his abundant use of infesters with great success. I have nothing against Destiny, but after hearing about his success and watching his games, it was easy to see ( as a higher masters/low gm players ) that I had to start using infesters .... a lot ( I used them pretty much not at all before ). Every other higher level / pro zerg saw the same thing, we all started shifting .. 6 months later we are all abusing the shit out of infesters with every single composition in every single MU.
Point being, the current shift in balance had nothing to do with any patch, and everything to do with a shift in the zerg meta-game where infesters have become more widely used.
So I guess everyone using this term believes +2 queen range on their ground attack just broke the game and caused this shift in win rates?
This is actually a huge buff against Terrans. Prior to this buff Queens had 3 range against ground units, while Marines and Hellions both have 5 range. This means that Marines and Hellions were able to kite Queens, thus forcing Zergs to get Zerglings or Roaches. Now that Queens have 5 range aswell they are perfectly capable of dealing with any early game pressure. Furthermore they are free to spend all of their Larva on Drones rather than Zerglings. Another problem with Queens is that they build very fast compared to how great they deal with Marines. Even though Marines are fairly cost effecient against Queens, it takes quite a while to build up a force that is actually capable of killing a Queen. Because of this you either have to build a LOT of barracks and set yourself very far behind in terms of economy, or try to keep up with the Zerg in terms of bases and forget all about early pressure.
This ofcourse is a very big problem when Terran is designed to be strong early game and weak late game, when it turns out that they are no longer strong in early game.
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Luckily Browder will stomp this abomination into the ground and hopefully bury it forever.
On December 24 2012 01:10 GreenMash wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:50 Benkestok wrote:
Honestly, if the last Homestory Cup didnt show that there is a zerg problem, i dont know what will. We have random no names suddenly doing really well, people who where nothing before. Which results in a top 4 which is zerg. Its obivous that every pro-zerg found a way to exploit the race, which means that the low skill people can now perform. Snute has been doing well for a long time. Agree with xlord though. He had never done anything really before
Snute did NOTHING before the queen patch. But I admit that he is good in ZvZ.
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On December 23 2012 08:11 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 08:09 tili wrote:On December 23 2012 00:32 Kalsdou wrote:
Starcraft 2 never will be balanced while Infestors(Infested terrans, Fungal), Brood lord, Forcefields stays in the game and now Time warp, Swarm host??? WHAT
Zergs shouldn't have free units, they are insects not zombie.
User was banned for this post. What the hell, why was he banned for this post??? I seriously see no reason. He only had 1 post so was probably a previously banned user for balance whining
This whole fucking thread is about balance whining lol...
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On December 24 2012 00:02 Addict wrote:
Dont know if this has been posted or not...
Dustin Browder @DustinBrowder
It looks like our last Infestor nerfs were not enough. We will look to patch again sometime in January.
When you need to nerf a unit twice, u know how imbalance the unit initially is.
wait, i thought they just buff the fungal's projectile travel speed and range zzz...
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I still don't get why snipe and ghosts aren't looked at.
I always thought the ghost and snipe harass plus an answer to late game Zerg worked. It certainly needed a tweak but continuing the trend of making caster units irrelevant stinks. If the infestor gets a big nerf and becomes much less used that will dumb the complexity of the game down even more.
Just seems simple to me.... Make snipe stronger, make fungal either do damage or slow movement speed(not both) and give the hydra a lair speed upgrade to help offset the dps loss with infestor. At least changes like that help make 3 units more relevant instead of the current trend where each patch results in fewer and fewer units even worth making.
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Why did they buff the queen range from 3 straight to 5? I personally think 3 was too small of a range... they should make it 4 IMO. Also i think there shouldn't be a upgrade so infestors will spawn with fungal on the go... make them spawn with 50 energy and wait for 75 like HT and maybe make an upgrade to be able to cast fungal in the first place.
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On December 24 2012 08:03 Aunvilgod wrote:Luckily Browder will stomp this abomination into the ground and hopefully bury it forever. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 01:10 GreenMash wrote:On December 24 2012 00:50 Benkestok wrote:
Honestly, if the last Homestory Cup didnt show that there is a zerg problem, i dont know what will. We have random no names suddenly doing really well, people who where nothing before. Which results in a top 4 which is zerg. Its obivous that every pro-zerg found a way to exploit the race, which means that the low skill people can now perform. Snute has been doing well for a long time. Agree with xlord though. He had never done anything really before Snute did NOTHING before the queen patch. But I admit that he is good in ZvZ.
Snute won the One Nation of Gamers i2 Starcraft 2 Invitational before the queen patch - beating some pretty good players
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On December 24 2012 10:39 Arzi wrote:
Why did they buff the queen range from 3 straight to 5? I personally think 3 was too small of a range... they should make it 4 IMO. Also i think there shouldn't be a upgrade so infestors will spawn with fungal on the go... make them spawn with 50 energy and wait for 75 like HT and maybe make an upgrade to be able to cast fungal in the first place.
When the +2 range on Queen's went on the test servers, there were literally 100s of requests on these forums (and Blizzard forums) to suggest changing it to +4 first and test for a bit. However, because Blizzard wanted to make sure that hellions could no longer deny creep spread, they just went ahead with the changes.
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On December 24 2012 10:39 Arzi wrote:
Why did they buff the queen range from 3 straight to 5? I personally think 3 was too small of a range... they should make it 4 IMO. Also i think there shouldn't be a upgrade so infestors will spawn with fungal on the go... make them spawn with 50 energy and wait for 75 like HT and maybe make an upgrade to be able to cast fungal in the first place.
One of these two would be reasonable. But both, that would be too much. Still, I believe that the problem with fungal is its easy availability, but the fact that the spell itself is too powerful.
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On December 24 2012 10:46 CrugerDK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:03 Aunvilgod wrote:Luckily Browder will stomp this abomination into the ground and hopefully bury it forever. On December 24 2012 01:10 GreenMash wrote:On December 24 2012 00:50 Benkestok wrote:
Honestly, if the last Homestory Cup didnt show that there is a zerg problem, i dont know what will. We have random no names suddenly doing really well, people who where nothing before. Which results in a top 4 which is zerg. Its obivous that every pro-zerg found a way to exploit the race, which means that the low skill people can now perform. Snute has been doing well for a long time. Agree with xlord though. He had never done anything really before Snute did NOTHING before the queen patch. But I admit that he is good in ZvZ. Snute won the One Nation of Gamers i2 Starcraft 2 Invitational before the queen patch - beating some pretty good players
No.. Stop arguing. Snute is a patchzerg and every Kespa player (including Ts and Ps) are all patchzergs, because they all were crap before the queen patch. (the eternal line that distinguishes good players from patchzergs)
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1) Where were the great white Broodwar players? There simply were none - there were white players and white Broodwar pros but they were mediocre next to their Asian counterparts.
2) Where was Broodwar making the most money in Esports? Korea.
3) What was Blizzards aim with SC2? To make money.
The bottom line is the Bottom line - there is no white man conspiracy, there is only the desire to make $$$
Blizzard: Lets make SC2 - the RTS community is screaming for it.
Investors: Sure that will sell millions of units world wide.
Blizzard: So lets do it.
Investors: But the Proscene will only be a force in Korea. Would we make money? Sure. But only for 2 years or so after the release.
Blizzard: Lets make SC2 - but make it easier to play than Broodwar, we will give the races a lower skill ceiling and make the game with a clear late game hierarchy; that way non Koreans can compete, the late game hierarchy will disguise the low skill ceiling and the Proscene will be global. Plus we will release the game in 3 installments over six years - to ensure continued sales.
Investors: We consent.
Good Game, Well Played - see you in the Bahamas at the Ritz. I'll be the one with the slit wrists, choking on my own shame by the pool with the fluffy water and playboy bunnies.
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On December 24 2012 12:29 AxiomBlurr wrote:
1) Where were the great white Broodwar players? There simply were none - there were white players and white Broodwar pros but they were mediocre next to their Asian counterparts.
2) Where was Broodwar making the most money in Esports? Korea.
3) What was Blizzards aim with SC2? To make money.
The bottom line is the Bottom line - there is no white man conspiracy, there is only the desire to make $$$
Blizzard: Lets make SC2 - the RTS community is screaming for it.
Investors: Sure that will sell millions of units world wide.
Blizzard: So lets do it.
Investors: But the Proscene will only be a force in Korea. Would we make money? Sure. But only for 2 years or so after the release.
Blizzard: Lets make SC2 - but make it easier to play than Broodwar, we will give the races a lower skill ceiling and make the game with a clear late game hierarchy; that way non Koreans can compete, the late game hierarchy will disguise the low skill ceiling and the Proscene will be global. Plus we will release the game in 3 installments over six years - to ensure continued sales.
Investors: We consent.
Good Game, Well Played - see you in the Bahamas at the Ritz. I'll be the one with the slit wrists, choking on my own shame by the pool with the fluffy water and playboy bunnies.
Im sure you will be mocked by some in this thread for your post. However, I wholeheartedly with what you are saying. I just think some people just don't want to believe that they have it easier than others perhaps.
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EPT
