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This terribly egotistical mentality is what's going to destroy e-sports.
Imbalance and falling view numbers due to watching a boring matchup (ZvZ with infestor BL) has a far higher chance of killing esports than my "mentality". When the semi's in HSC started the view numbers dipped immediately.
Also since the last few patches foreigner Zergs have been dominating Koreans (who tend to have better micro and macro than foreigners) - however foreigner Terrans and Protoss still struggle against Korean players. Zerg players haven't suddenly levelled up to having higher skill - they've just figured out an overpowered combo with a low skill ceiling coupled with patch buffs.
And if the past has anything to say about people figuring out overpowered combos, they get nerfed. Well, if you're Terran anyway.
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On December 25 2012 03:27 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:21 geoIOPS wrote:Its flattering themselves that somehow they're the harder race or the tougher challenge and it somehow makes them greater. Its all ego and its pathetic honestly that people have their noses so far up their asses they can't smell the solutions sitting right in front of them. I play T and P 2/3 of the time in games so twice as much as I play Z and I don't have trouble vs Z with either one of them. Pre-hive or post-hive. No one gives a crap about what your experience with the PvZ or TvZ matchup is. None. 0%. What we care we care about are professional PvZ or TvZ matches. Are you denying that there is a problem with fungal in these situations? Are you denying that changing fungal would completely destroy how ZvP ZvT and ZvZ all work without major re-works into the mechanics upgrades stats and micro-ability of lings/roaches/hydras/mutas/queens? A lot of pros are quite capable vs Z except vs very innovative players like ST_Life, Leenock, HyuN, etc. A lot of players are whining about the ladder people right now so of course I'm going to quote my own experiences for that. Are you really not capable of reading these other hundreds of whiney posts that don't have to do with the pro scene? Show nested quote +When I see far better Terrans have to work so much harder than their Zerg counterparts and still lose... yeah I can see a balance issue there. This terribly egotistical mentality is what's going to destroy e-sports.
We're still waiting on that valid argument. If you think Its not a problem, tell us something concrete. Is there a certain timing to hit or a certain style to play? And if so, will this style work at a professional level?
Right now, its fair to say many Terran players are struggling at the professional level, as well as many Protoss professional players in the lategame.
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On December 25 2012 03:38 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:33 Godwrath wrote:A lot of pros are quite capable vs Z except vs very innovative players like ST_Life, Leenock, HyuN, etc. What ? There are only 2 pro's that can really beat them. Parting and Gumiho. One with a onetrickpony all in shitty to watch, and the another, Gumiho, with MMMG which you must be an insanely good player to do it well and it's kind of go big or go home, because one second you don't babysit your army and you are toast. Parting has some of the strongest PvZ in existence right now. Its not because of his immortal all-in either. His SG expand and fast mothership builds are incredibly good as well. To sit there and call Parting a onetrickponey all-in player is just showing that you have next to no knowledge of the biggest names much less the intricacy of the scene down through the semi-pro levels or the level of players that actually make it that high.
Yeah you are funny man. Except the only way Parting beats the players you spoke about is with :
A - Immortal all in
B - pre hive timing (meta'ing his opponents who usually over commit to hold an immortal push that never happens)
Do you have find that exciting to watch ?
And by the way, i am a startale fan, and love my triumvirate bomber, parting, life, i am not fucking downtalking the player. You are just delusional at this point, and extremely butthurt as well, when you only try argue whatever you want to. What about Gumiho's TvZ ? Anything else to speak about ? Is there another player i forgot that has a decent winrate against any of these players since the 2 past GSL seasons ?
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Great post. I am relatively new to the community. I was drawn in about a year ago by dynamic replays by Husky, Day9, etc. But lately, the matches are quite dull. As a Gold Zerg player I say, nerf everything, do anything, I don't care, just give me the dynamic matches we saw in 2010 and early 2011!
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On December 25 2012 03:47 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:38 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 03:33 Godwrath wrote:A lot of pros are quite capable vs Z except vs very innovative players like ST_Life, Leenock, HyuN, etc. What ? There are only 2 pro's that can really beat them. Parting and Gumiho. One with a onetrickpony all in shitty to watch, and the another, Gumiho, with MMMG which you must be an insanely good player to do it well and it's kind of go big or go home, because one second you don't babysit your army and you are toast. Parting has some of the strongest PvZ in existence right now. Its not because of his immortal all-in either. His SG expand and fast mothership builds are incredibly good as well. To sit there and call Parting a onetrickponey all-in player is just showing that you have next to no knowledge of the biggest names much less the intricacy of the scene down through the semi-pro levels or the level of players that actually make it that high. Yeah you are funny man. Except the only way Parting beats the players you spoke about is with : A - Immortal all in B - pre hive timing (meta'ing his opponents who usually over commit to hold an immortal push that never happens) Do you have find that exciting to watch ? And by the way, i am a startale fan, and love my triumvirate bomber, parting, life, i am not fucking downtalking the player. You are just delusional at this point, and extremely butthurt as well, when you only try argue whatever you want to. What about Gumiho's TvZ ? Anything else to speak about ? Is there another player i forgot that has a decent winrate against any of these players since the 2 past GSL seasons ?
lol you're doing nothing but slinging insults and acting egotistical. Stop trying to tell people they're butthurt or whatever, its pretty pathetic. Go ahead and continue being trash since that's all your brain seems to understand how to think and be.
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The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high.
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On December 25 2012 03:57 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:47 Godwrath wrote:On December 25 2012 03:38 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 03:33 Godwrath wrote:A lot of pros are quite capable vs Z except vs very innovative players like ST_Life, Leenock, HyuN, etc. What ? There are only 2 pro's that can really beat them. Parting and Gumiho. One with a onetrickpony all in shitty to watch, and the another, Gumiho, with MMMG which you must be an insanely good player to do it well and it's kind of go big or go home, because one second you don't babysit your army and you are toast. Parting has some of the strongest PvZ in existence right now. Its not because of his immortal all-in either. His SG expand and fast mothership builds are incredibly good as well. To sit there and call Parting a onetrickponey all-in player is just showing that you have next to no knowledge of the biggest names much less the intricacy of the scene down through the semi-pro levels or the level of players that actually make it that high. Yeah you are funny man. Except the only way Parting beats the players you spoke about is with : A - Immortal all in B - pre hive timing (meta'ing his opponents who usually over commit to hold an immortal push that never happens) Do you have find that exciting to watch ? And by the way, i am a startale fan, and love my triumvirate bomber, parting, life, i am not fucking downtalking the player. You are just delusional at this point, and extremely butthurt as well, when you only try argue whatever you want to. What about Gumiho's TvZ ? Anything else to speak about ? Is there another player i forgot that has a decent winrate against any of these players since the 2 past GSL seasons ? lol you're doing nothing but slinging insults and acting egotistical. Stop trying to tell people they're butthurt or whatever, its pretty pathetic. Go ahead and continue being trash since that's all your brain seems to understand how to think and be.
And what are you doing? Talking to people telling them they have "next to no knowledge" as if your mid masters status is big time. At least Godwrath made a pretty good point in that Parting heavily relies on his immortal allin, using it multiple times during series and there hasnt been a Korean Terran to show consistent results against Zerg recently. Stop trying to tell other people they don't understand the game when you arent even a high level player.
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On December 25 2012 03:59 Grumbels wrote:
The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high.
Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. The viewer numbers are going down all over the place, including HSC VI (as far as we can tell based on stream viewers). And, to be honest, I'm one of the people watching a lot less than I used to. It's just not fun anymore.
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On December 25 2012 03:38 Vore210 wrote:Imbalance and falling view numbers due to watching a boring matchup (ZvZ with infestor BL) has a far higher chance of killing esports than my "mentality". When the semi's in HSC started the view numbers dipped immediately. Also since the last few patches foreigner Zergs have been dominating Koreans (who tend to have better micro and macro than foreigners) - however foreigner Terrans and Protoss still struggle against Korean players. Zerg players haven't suddenly levelled up to having higher skill - they've just figured out an overpowered combo with a low skill ceiling coupled with patch buffs. And if the past has anything to say about people figuring out overpowered combos, they get nerfed. Well, if you're Terran anyway.
Well while Korea was Terran heaven, they didn't have alot of Zergies. Protoss was really dominant for a time in Europe, while Zerg was fairly underrepresented. (stigma of Zerg being underpoweder that made people don't try Zerg) But Korea had alot of Protoss as well, though they never really had Innovative Zergs. Whereas in Europe it really exploded.
When it comes to mirrors, if you allow a European Protoss or Zerg to have their way, the Korean will most likely lose unless the foreigner messes up their micro. It is simply the amount of experience Europeans have with those Mirrors, due to the Player base here. Their composition and decision making usually outweights the better control.
So yeah I would say against Protoss and Zerg Foreigners have a good shot. While Korean Terran playstyle isn't the most effective against Foreigners. (They can train all they want we have the masses basically)
About the Patches ... especially Terrans were forced into one playstyle by all the nerfs (mostly to fix TvT, or early aggression from a Terran). So a Terran is pretty much forced into a few semi working openers, that will fail if you don't execute them perfectly and your opponent just waits for a mistake. That way it became fairly easy to fight Terran blindly.
For Zergs, they didn't need the patches, but the patches gave them room for errors (and I agree way to much room), so they could experiment around. And Zerg basically went from the least developed race to one with really deep strategies and variation. While Terran right now is in this no mistake spot.
But what I really wanted to say. It is no wonder that Viewer numbers drop if only one race is left ... as well as when fan favorites drop out. So don't use it as an argument that anything is wrong (except for fans not caring for the tournament/game but only the players)
And Figuring out an overpowered combo is one of the ways to win, just figure out something better. If game devs interfere they might ruin the matchup. See the unnecessary Queen change turning TvZ into a 15 minutes no rush games, except someone tries to end the game with a coinflip at the start (and enough people were figuring out ways to beat the hellion contain and the other early game non issues Zerg had). Or the Immortal change to make it easier to use, being the last nail in the coffin for mech play without Ghosts. And creating the Immortal allin of course.
The Infested Terran change is also a nice example, that those things need time. First Protoss players made it look like Infested Terrans are useless. Now they cut corners at stuff that deals with them, while Zerg players stepped up their Egg throw and suddenly it looks like as if the change did nothing.
I just hope they will remove more of their unit blocks in the last expansion (where they took skills/units and nerfed them to uselessness so they don't have to bother with them anymore)
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On December 25 2012 03:57 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:47 Godwrath wrote:On December 25 2012 03:38 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 03:33 Godwrath wrote:A lot of pros are quite capable vs Z except vs very innovative players like ST_Life, Leenock, HyuN, etc. What ? There are only 2 pro's that can really beat them. Parting and Gumiho. One with a onetrickpony all in shitty to watch, and the another, Gumiho, with MMMG which you must be an insanely good player to do it well and it's kind of go big or go home, because one second you don't babysit your army and you are toast. Parting has some of the strongest PvZ in existence right now. Its not because of his immortal all-in either. His SG expand and fast mothership builds are incredibly good as well. To sit there and call Parting a onetrickponey all-in player is just showing that you have next to no knowledge of the biggest names much less the intricacy of the scene down through the semi-pro levels or the level of players that actually make it that high. Yeah you are funny man. Except the only way Parting beats the players you spoke about is with : A - Immortal all in B - pre hive timing (meta'ing his opponents who usually over commit to hold an immortal push that never happens) Do you have find that exciting to watch ? And by the way, i am a startale fan, and love my triumvirate bomber, parting, life, i am not fucking downtalking the player. You are just delusional at this point, and extremely butthurt as well, when you only try argue whatever you want to. What about Gumiho's TvZ ? Anything else to speak about ? Is there another player i forgot that has a decent winrate against any of these players since the 2 past GSL seasons ? lol you're doing nothing but slinging insults and acting egotistical. Stop trying to tell people they're butthurt or whatever, its pretty pathetic. Go ahead and continue being trash since that's all your brain seems to understand how to think and be.
Uhm, Parting vs Violet on Cloud Kingdom (blizzard cup) comes to mind~, was the first time I saw recall being actually useful in a pro-game (HerO's attempts always lead to his tragic demise....), Parting even got 3 extra SGs (to a total of 4) for a carrier transition that he didnt even need to finish the game, was really cool and well played by him~
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Gotta say this is written from an almost conspiracy theorist viewpoint, Blizzard rigging the game for foreigner victories? I hope you don't actually believe that. Were the twin towers the american government too? Yes, the game is imbalanced, and yes it has always been imbalanced, and yes people do always say about brood war taking ages...because its totally relevant, and completely applies in this situation.
Give HotS time. Theyve attempted to fix all the problems. PvZ not working, brought in tempests, which do seem to have brought about balance. Altered fungal to be projectile, shortened its range, reduced infested terran health...what more do you want?
Summary: There will be a long time before there is complete balance. A lot of your suggestions are awful, and some of the games you referenced weren't as one sided as you made them out to be. Yes, Zerg is OP right now, yes blizzard are doing something about it, no I don't play zerg I play random in masters. Chill your beans!
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On December 25 2012 06:25 Martacus wrote:
Gotta say this is written from an almost conspiracy theorist viewpoint, Blizzard rigging the game for foreigner victories? I hope you don't actually believe that. Were the twin towers the american government too? Yes, the game is imbalanced, and yes it has always been imbalanced, and yes people do always say about brood war taking ages...because its totally relevant, and completely applies in this situation.
Give HotS time. Theyve attempted to fix all the problems. PvZ not working, brought in tempests, which do seem to have brought about balance. Altered fungal to be projectile, shortened its range, reduced infested terran health...what more do you want?
Summary: There will be a long time before there is complete balance. A lot of your suggestions are awful, and some of the games you referenced weren't as one sided as you made them out to be. Yes, Zerg is OP right now, yes blizzard are doing something about it, no I don't play zerg I play random in masters. Chill your beans!
Or greatly buffed it, instead.
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I am afraid that if blizzard doesnt change the game there will be noone playing legacy of the void.I used to watch sc1 and sc2 a lot but now every match is same.I dont see any difference between those "top zergs" in their play.They are just abusing the same shit over and over again.
I used to have respect for zerg players when zerg was a hard race to play.Now even noname foreigner zergs "aka patchzergs" can beat koreans.There is something seriously wrong with this game now.
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Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him.
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On December 25 2012 06:43 aust77 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him.
Oh ffs, now people calling Life a patch zerg as well? Next we get Dongreagu, Leenock and even Nestea in the list...
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On December 25 2012 05:37 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:38 Vore210 wrote:
This terribly egotistical mentality is what's going to destroy e-sports.
Imbalance and falling view numbers due to watching a boring matchup (ZvZ with infestor BL) has a far higher chance of killing esports than my "mentality". When the semi's in HSC started the view numbers dipped immediately. Also since the last few patches foreigner Zergs have been dominating Koreans (who tend to have better micro and macro than foreigners) - however foreigner Terrans and Protoss still struggle against Korean players. Zerg players haven't suddenly levelled up to having higher skill - they've just figured out an overpowered combo with a low skill ceiling coupled with patch buffs. And if the past has anything to say about people figuring out overpowered combos, they get nerfed. Well, if you're Terran anyway. Well while Korea was Terran heaven, they didn't have alot of Zergies. Protoss was really dominant for a time in Europe, while Zerg was fairly underrepresented. (stigma of Zerg being underpoweder that made people don't try Zerg) But Korea had alot of Protoss as well, though they never really had Innovative Zergs. Whereas in Europe it really exploded. When it comes to mirrors, if you allow a European Protoss or Zerg to have their way, the Korean will most likely lose unless the foreigner messes up their micro. It is simply the amount of experience Europeans have with those Mirrors, due to the Player base here. Their composition and decision making usually outweights the better control. So yeah I would say against Protoss and Zerg Foreigners have a good shot. While Korean Terran playstyle isn't the most effective against Foreigners. (They can train all they want we have the masses basically) About the Patches ... especially Terrans were forced into one playstyle by all the nerfs (mostly to fix TvT, or early aggression from a Terran). So a Terran is pretty much forced into a few semi working openers, that will fail if you don't execute them perfectly and your opponent just waits for a mistake. That way it became fairly easy to fight Terran blindly. For Zergs, they didn't need the patches, but the patches gave them room for errors (and I agree way to much room), so they could experiment around. And Zerg basically went from the least developed race to one with really deep strategies and variation. While Terran right now is in this no mistake spot. But what I really wanted to say. It is no wonder that Viewer numbers drop if only one race is left ... as well as when fan favorites drop out. So don't use it as an argument that anything is wrong (except for fans not caring for the tournament/game but only the players) And Figuring out an overpowered combo is one of the ways to win, just figure out something better. If game devs interfere they might ruin the matchup. See the unnecessary Queen change turning TvZ into a 15 minutes no rush games, except someone tries to end the game with a coinflip at the start (and enough people were figuring out ways to beat the hellion contain and the other early game non issues Zerg had). Or the Immortal change to make it easier to use, being the last nail in the coffin for mech play without Ghosts. And creating the Immortal allin of course. The Infested Terran change is also a nice example, that those things need time. First Protoss players made it look like Infested Terrans are useless. Now they cut corners at stuff that deals with them, while Zerg players stepped up their Egg throw and suddenly it looks like as if the change did nothing. I just hope they will remove more of their unit blocks in the last expansion (where they took skills/units and nerfed them to uselessness so they don't have to bother with them anymore)
The top Korean Terrans and Protoss (who have been steamrolled by foreigner zergs recently) have had great practice against the best of the best Zerg players. It's not as if this is random ladder players appearing in a tournament, its famous tournament veterans. So I don't think the argument of Koreans having few good Zergs so Korean Terran and Protoss lose to foreigners cuts it.
I've never seen the numbers drop so significantly in a semi-final for anything other than ZvZ.
What does Terran have to figure out for their end game army when fungal breaks cloak, hits air, and prevents melee units reaching broodlords? Plus every time Terran has figured something out, it got nerfed quickly enough. Even if the level of micro required was only being pulled off by the best of the Koreans.
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On December 25 2012 06:50 Vore210 wrote:
What does Terran have to figure out for their end game army when fungal breaks cloak, hits air, and prevents melee units reaching broodlords? Plus every time Terran has figured something out, it got nerfed quickly enough. Even if the level of micro required was only being pulled off by the best of the Koreans.
Honestly, I sometimes have the impression that Terran is a race designed specifically with the Koreans in mind, whereas the Zerg were designed for the foreigners. And I would not find this wrong or disturbing, if it were not for the fact that someone had overdone it.
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On December 25 2012 06:43 aust77 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him.
Life is probably the best muta-ling player right now. Everyone states that his ling micro is unbelievable. Lots of top pros (DRG, Leenock, ...) have stated that they have tried to play life's style, but it is too challenging to do. Honestly, if infestors were removed from the game today, I would say Life might be the only zerg that would still be consistently on top.
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EPT
