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On December 25 2012 06:50 Vore210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 05:37 FeyFey wrote:On December 25 2012 03:38 Vore210 wrote:
This terribly egotistical mentality is what's going to destroy e-sports.
Imbalance and falling view numbers due to watching a boring matchup (ZvZ with infestor BL) has a far higher chance of killing esports than my "mentality". When the semi's in HSC started the view numbers dipped immediately. Also since the last few patches foreigner Zergs have been dominating Koreans (who tend to have better micro and macro than foreigners) - however foreigner Terrans and Protoss still struggle against Korean players. Zerg players haven't suddenly levelled up to having higher skill - they've just figured out an overpowered combo with a low skill ceiling coupled with patch buffs. And if the past has anything to say about people figuring out overpowered combos, they get nerfed. Well, if you're Terran anyway. Well while Korea was Terran heaven, they didn't have alot of Zergies. Protoss was really dominant for a time in Europe, while Zerg was fairly underrepresented. (stigma of Zerg being underpoweder that made people don't try Zerg) But Korea had alot of Protoss as well, though they never really had Innovative Zergs. Whereas in Europe it really exploded. When it comes to mirrors, if you allow a European Protoss or Zerg to have their way, the Korean will most likely lose unless the foreigner messes up their micro. It is simply the amount of experience Europeans have with those Mirrors, due to the Player base here. Their composition and decision making usually outweights the better control. So yeah I would say against Protoss and Zerg Foreigners have a good shot. While Korean Terran playstyle isn't the most effective against Foreigners. (They can train all they want we have the masses basically) About the Patches ... especially Terrans were forced into one playstyle by all the nerfs (mostly to fix TvT, or early aggression from a Terran). So a Terran is pretty much forced into a few semi working openers, that will fail if you don't execute them perfectly and your opponent just waits for a mistake. That way it became fairly easy to fight Terran blindly. For Zergs, they didn't need the patches, but the patches gave them room for errors (and I agree way to much room), so they could experiment around. And Zerg basically went from the least developed race to one with really deep strategies and variation. While Terran right now is in this no mistake spot. But what I really wanted to say. It is no wonder that Viewer numbers drop if only one race is left ... as well as when fan favorites drop out. So don't use it as an argument that anything is wrong (except for fans not caring for the tournament/game but only the players) And Figuring out an overpowered combo is one of the ways to win, just figure out something better. If game devs interfere they might ruin the matchup. See the unnecessary Queen change turning TvZ into a 15 minutes no rush games, except someone tries to end the game with a coinflip at the start (and enough people were figuring out ways to beat the hellion contain and the other early game non issues Zerg had). Or the Immortal change to make it easier to use, being the last nail in the coffin for mech play without Ghosts. And creating the Immortal allin of course. The Infested Terran change is also a nice example, that those things need time. First Protoss players made it look like Infested Terrans are useless. Now they cut corners at stuff that deals with them, while Zerg players stepped up their Egg throw and suddenly it looks like as if the change did nothing. I just hope they will remove more of their unit blocks in the last expansion (where they took skills/units and nerfed them to uselessness so they don't have to bother with them anymore) The top Korean Terrans and Protoss (who have been steamrolled by foreigner zergs recently) have had great practice against the best of the best Zerg players. It's not as if this is random ladder players appearing in a tournament, its famous tournament veterans. So I don't think the argument of Koreans having few good Zergs so Korean Terran and Protoss lose to foreigners cuts it. I've never seen the numbers drop so significantly in a semi-final for anything other than ZvZ. What does Terran have to figure out for their end game army when fungal breaks cloak, hits air, and prevents melee units reaching broodlords? Plus every time Terran has figured something out, it got nerfed quickly enough. Even if the level of micro required was only being pulled off by the best of the Koreans.
I personally think a lot of the "tournament fatigue" everyone has been discussing is in part because of the zerg dominance. I don't enjoy tournaments much anyone, I find watching every zerg matchup extremely painful. I hate watching infestor broodlord, but that is every single game. Add to that, before everyone tournament, you know that a zerg will win, it will probably be a ZvZ finals, and I just hope that it isn't a ZvZvZvZ semifinals. But it's just so common that I don't like watching anymore. In the past I would cheer for the foreigner to beat the korean (I still do with grubby, socke, kas, demuslim, idra), but the only foreigners beating koreans are zerg players. With that, I can only see imbalance because of how often it happens.
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On December 25 2012 07:35 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 06:43 aust77 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him. Life is probably the best muta-ling player right now. Everyone states that his ling micro is unbelievable. Lots of top pros (DRG, Leenock, ...) have stated that they have tried to play life's style, but it is too challenging to do. Honestly, if infestors were removed from the game today, I would say Life might be the only zerg that would still be consistently on top.
I say Dongreagu still has a fair chance. Need some training to get back into the monster of start of the year tough.
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On December 25 2012 07:35 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 06:43 aust77 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him. Life is probably the best muta-ling player right now. Everyone states that his ling micro is unbelievable. Lots of top pros (DRG, Leenock, ...) have stated that they have tried to play life's style, but it is too challenging to do. Honestly, if infestors were removed from the game today, I would say Life might be the only zerg that would still be consistently on top.
I'm not disputing his ability, but I definitely feel he abused the over-powered composition in edging someone as incredible under pressure as Mvp. I would argue that Squirtle was equally as dominant heading into the S2 finals, yet he had no such imbalances to fall back on when faced with a tight series.
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On December 25 2012 07:35 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 06:43 aust77 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him. Life is probably the best muta-ling player right now. Everyone states that his ling micro is unbelievable. Lots of top pros (DRG, Leenock, ...) have stated that they have tried to play life's style, but it is too challenging to do. Honestly, if infestors were removed from the game today, I would say Life might be the only zerg that would still be consistently on top.
On December 25 2012 06:45 Assirra wrote:
Oh ffs, now people calling Life a patch zerg as well? Next we get Dongreagu, Leenock and even Nestea in the list...
no one is calling Life a patchzerg, you just misinterpetted what he said, then blew it out of proportion. if you read the article its about 2 things, OP infestor BL which makes Z easy which our conspiracy theory author has then used as a platform where blizzard is doing this on PURPOSE so white people can win more. What was said however was that in all of Life's TvZ games, he played BL-Infestor and that greatly contributed to the win because of the imbalance/ strength of that combination.
however i do not agree with him saying life won all the TvZ in GSL 4 only becasue of BL-Infestor, his m/l/b is insane, almost untouchable
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On December 25 2012 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:59 Grumbels wrote:
The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. The viewer numbers are going down all over the place, including HSC VI (as far as we can tell based on stream viewers). And, to be honest, I'm one of the people watching a lot less than I used to. It's just not fun anymore.
Yeah I've started tuning out more and more often. I love seeing PvPs and TvTs, but please no more ZvZ...
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On December 25 2012 10:44 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 03:59 Grumbels wrote:
The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. The viewer numbers are going down all over the place, including HSC VI (as far as we can tell based on stream viewers). And, to be honest, I'm one of the people watching a lot less than I used to. It's just not fun anymore. Yeah I've started tuning out more and more often. I love seeing PvPs and TvTs, but please no more ZvZ...
I don't watch at all anymore... I used to click on the tourney every time I'd see one to see if I could catch any sort of Terran matchup but I've come to just give up... I never find one.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 25 2012 10:10 aust77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 07:35 convention wrote:On December 25 2012 06:43 aust77 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him. Life is probably the best muta-ling player right now. Everyone states that his ling micro is unbelievable. Lots of top pros (DRG, Leenock, ...) have stated that they have tried to play life's style, but it is too challenging to do. Honestly, if infestors were removed from the game today, I would say Life might be the only zerg that would still be consistently on top. I'm not disputing his ability, but I definitely feel he abused the over-powered composition in edging someone as incredible under pressure as Mvp. I would argue that Squirtle was equally as dominant heading into the S2 finals, yet he had no such imbalances to fall back on when faced with a tight series.
If Mvp didn't try the same two risky strategies over a seven-game series, maybe Life would have done something different. It's not like he needed it to beat Taeja and MKP.
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On December 25 2012 10:53 Krakoskk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 10:44 zmansman17 wrote:On December 25 2012 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 03:59 Grumbels wrote:
The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. The viewer numbers are going down all over the place, including HSC VI (as far as we can tell based on stream viewers). And, to be honest, I'm one of the people watching a lot less than I used to. It's just not fun anymore. Yeah I've started tuning out more and more often. I love seeing PvPs and TvTs, but please no more ZvZ... I don't watch at all anymore... I used to click on the tourney every time I'd see one to see if I could catch any sort of Terran matchup but I've come to just give up... I never find one.
Reminds me back when tournaments were largely terran dominated and lack of zergs. I did the same thing you are doing now, shut it off and yeah.
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On December 25 2012 11:00 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 10:53 Krakoskk wrote:On December 25 2012 10:44 zmansman17 wrote:On December 25 2012 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 03:59 Grumbels wrote:
The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. The viewer numbers are going down all over the place, including HSC VI (as far as we can tell based on stream viewers). And, to be honest, I'm one of the people watching a lot less than I used to. It's just not fun anymore. Yeah I've started tuning out more and more often. I love seeing PvPs and TvTs, but please no more ZvZ... I don't watch at all anymore... I used to click on the tourney every time I'd see one to see if I could catch any sort of Terran matchup but I've come to just give up... I never find one. Reminds me back when tournaments were largely terran dominated and lack of zergs. I did the same thing you are doing now, shut it off and yeah.
At least TvT was an exciting, positional and dynamic matchup when Terrans were dominating....
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First of all, nice post! WOL/HOTS has lost much of its appeal indeed. I stopped playing for a while, but I don't fancy watching pro's play either lately.
Just one hint: Stephano is not white.
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On December 25 2012 17:23 Hetz wrote:
First of all, nice post! WOL/HOTS has lost much of its appeal indeed. I stopped playing for a while, but I don't fancy watching pro's play either lately.
Just one hint: Stephano is not white.
He's more american than you can believe.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 25 2012 16:12 Jonas  wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 11:00 blade55555 wrote:On December 25 2012 10:53 Krakoskk wrote:On December 25 2012 10:44 zmansman17 wrote:On December 25 2012 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 03:59 Grumbels wrote:
The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. The viewer numbers are going down all over the place, including HSC VI (as far as we can tell based on stream viewers). And, to be honest, I'm one of the people watching a lot less than I used to. It's just not fun anymore. Yeah I've started tuning out more and more often. I love seeing PvPs and TvTs, but please no more ZvZ... I don't watch at all anymore... I used to click on the tourney every time I'd see one to see if I could catch any sort of Terran matchup but I've come to just give up... I never find one. Reminds me back when tournaments were largely terran dominated and lack of zergs. I did the same thing you are doing now, shut it off and yeah. At least TvT was an exciting, positional and dynamic matchup when Terrans were dominating....
It now still is, more than it ever was.
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Sigh, why does this thread even have to exist? Tis' a sad day when a community figure posts a huge troll thread.
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On December 26 2012 00:41 Brawny wrote:
Sigh, why does this thread even have to exist? Tis' a sad day when a community figure posts a huge troll thread.
Could you explain to me how this is a "troll thread"? Sure, the conspiracy theories might be beside the point, but from what I could see when skimming the post, it pretty accurately described the problem that infestors pose to competetive SC2 nowadays. I haven't really been keeping up with the scene, but I have been watching a few VODs every day for the last few weeks, and that's all it took for me to realize that infesters had a very negative impact on the games I saw. It was to the point where I only felt like watching terrans or protoss playing against zerg, because I couldn't sit back and relax those match-ups before I knew that the problem had been solved. I kept waiting for the terrans to go ravens, but as this topic points out, ravens aren't a clear answer to the tactical imbalance that infestors provide (in particular while coupled with brood lords). The thing is, even if the metagame does develop and people can find an answer, the situations that brood lords create are too start and repetitive. So, that's why we need posts like that which can point out clearly what's wrong and put it out there in a manner that Blizzard cannot ignore.
I was scanning the thread for useful replies, but found none. Have anyone seen recent indications from Blizzard about this matter?
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On December 25 2012 10:43 MDMA_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 07:35 convention wrote:On December 25 2012 06:43 aust77 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Nearly every game won by Life in TvZ GSL S4 finals of this year was a direct result of the Broodlord-Infestor combination, while Mvp's marginal TvP win against Squirtle in S2 featured some memorable, back-and-forth and varied games. One earned the victory, the other had it handed to him. Life is probably the best muta-ling player right now. Everyone states that his ling micro is unbelievable. Lots of top pros (DRG, Leenock, ...) have stated that they have tried to play life's style, but it is too challenging to do. Honestly, if infestors were removed from the game today, I would say Life might be the only zerg that would still be consistently on top. Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 06:45 Assirra wrote:
Oh ffs, now people calling Life a patch zerg as well? Next we get Dongreagu, Leenock and even Nestea in the list... no one is calling Life a patchzerg, you just misinterpetted what he said, then blew it out of proportion. if you read the article its about 2 things, OP infestor BL which makes Z easy which our conspiracy theory author has then used as a platform where blizzard is doing this on PURPOSE so white people can win more. What was said however was that in all of Life's TvZ games, he played BL-Infestor and that greatly contributed to the win because of the imbalance/ strength of that combination. however i do not agree with him saying life won all the TvZ in GSL 4 only becasue of BL-Infestor, his m/l/b is insane, almost untouchable
I don't recall having said all of his TvZ's were based upon that composition? I referred only to his finals match-up versus Mvp. Don't get me wrong, Life is an incredible player and definitely among the best at present, regardless of the current state of TvZ balance. However, I'd argue his marginal 4-3 victory was definitely a partial result of how he was able to abuse BL-Infestor.
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On December 26 2012 00:41 Brawny wrote:
I was scanning the thread for useful replies, but found none. Have anyone seen recent indications from Blizzard about this matter?
Glad you ask
Latest HotS patch (take in mind, fungal is a projectile)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388901
Infestor
Fungal Growth
Range increased from 8 to 10.
Missile speed increased from 10 to 15.
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Dustin Browder tweeted twice after that.
a) Current infestor nerf was not enough.
b) Nerf will come after the holidays.
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Browders comment wasn't about HoTS though. It was in regard to WoL.
Infestor actually was buffed recently in HoTS.
Caster units in SC2 are a mess right now.
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On December 25 2012 16:12 Jonas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 11:00 blade55555 wrote:On December 25 2012 10:53 Krakoskk wrote:On December 25 2012 10:44 zmansman17 wrote:On December 25 2012 04:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 03:59 Grumbels wrote:
The problem isn't that zerg is the dominant race, it's that the gameplay suffers because zerg match-ups are boring. If terran was dominant it would still be annoying, but not as bad. I mean, MMA, MC, MKP were all eliminated reasonably quickly at Homestory Cup and that's just not supposed to happen. The skill differences don't mean too much lately and PvP and ZvX are the primary culprits. Some players can still win consistently in Bo5 series played in top condition, but if only one thing is off (jetlag, Bo3, bad match-up) there is no Korean that's undefeatable by top Europeans. Good for Blizzard, I guess, it keeps the viewer numbers high. Unfortunately, it's exactly the opposite. The viewer numbers are going down all over the place, including HSC VI (as far as we can tell based on stream viewers). And, to be honest, I'm one of the people watching a lot less than I used to. It's just not fun anymore. Yeah I've started tuning out more and more often. I love seeing PvPs and TvTs, but please no more ZvZ... I don't watch at all anymore... I used to click on the tourney every time I'd see one to see if I could catch any sort of Terran matchup but I've come to just give up... I never find one. Reminds me back when tournaments were largely terran dominated and lack of zergs. I did the same thing you are doing now, shut it off and yeah. At least TvT was an exciting, positional and dynamic matchup when Terrans were dominating....
No it really wasn't, TvT was horribly boring and I could never stand watching it.
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I have no issue with Blizzard testing stuff which might seem crazy in HotS, it's a beta, but I feel the infestor nerf wasn't big enough in WoL: it changed nothing.
I think too many people are focused on the fact that infestor are too strong. I don't think it is the main issue, as a sCCrooked said: unless you're a pro you can always do improvements big enough which will make you beat Zergs. The main problem is that it is fucking boring to see infestor every game in every MU. This unit isn't fun and it is what ruins the game by now.
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EPT
