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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On December 26 2012 04:02 kollin wrote: I do very much so hope this is a sarcastic post... Nop its the same thing delusional people were saying about terrans when they were steamrolling everything and every top 8 was a TvT. Also that artosis blog,ah yes,that artosis blog. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On December 26 2012 07:33 TheKefka wrote: Nop its the same thing delusional people were saying about terrans when they were steamrolling everything and every top 8 was a TvT. Also that artosis blog,ah yes,that artosis blog. What a ridiculous statement. Terrans were "steamrolling" everything?... Speaking of delusion, I think you're missing a mirror. Yes, Terrans were dominating, but not to the extend that Zergs are "steamrolling" everyone with a giant, easy-to-use, deathball. Actually, pre-Queen buff, TvZ in Korea was 50%~, not quite the steam-roll you claim. And the global win-rate wasn't even that even since Terrans only dominated in Korea and nowhere else. Read the OP before you spew nonsense into a thread that is already filled with misinformation please. | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On December 26 2012 07:43 plogamer wrote: What a ridiculous statement. Terrans were "steamrolling" everything?... Speaking of delusion, I think you're missing a mirror. Yes, Terrans were dominating, but not to the extend that Zergs are "steamrolling" everyone with a giant, easy-to-use, deathball. Actually, pre-Queen buff, TvZ in Korea was 50%~, not quite the steam-roll you claim. And the global win-rate wasn't even that even since Terrans only dominated in Korea and nowhere else. Read the OP before you spew nonsense into a thread that is already filled with misinformation please. The fuck are you talking about? Did I specify a moment in where terrans were steamrolling everything?Did I say it was right before queen buff? No I clearly didn't.I just made a ambiguous statement about people that are ready to defend clearly imbalanced shit regardless what race it is or what time period,because if I remember correctly there were points in time where terrans had 70%win rate against a race and steamrolling is clearly the appropriate term and even than there were people that said it's not a problem and that the other races should just figure it out.Did i say what point that was?No. Did the guy specify what he means?No. So what the fuck is your problem? User was warned for this post | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 26 2012 08:00 TheKefka wrote: The fuck are you talking about? Did I specify a moment in where terrans were steamrolling everything?Did I say it was right before queen buff? No I clearly didn't.I just made a ambiguous statement about people that are ready to defend clearly imbalanced shit regardless what race it is or what time period,because if I remember correctly there were points in time where terrans had 70%win rate against a race and steamrolling is clearly the appropriate term and even than there were people that said it's not a problem and that the other races should just figure it out.Did i say what point that was?No. Did the guy specify what he means?No. So what the fuck is your problem? Seriously 70%? I mean if you make stuff up at least make it reasonable. Better yet dont make stuff up. | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On December 26 2012 08:26 keglu wrote: Seriously 70%? I mean if you make stuff up at least make it reasonable. Better yet dont make stuff up. Oh let's see.67% winrate TvP at GSL season1,70% winrate for zergs in season 2 against protoss,65% winrate for terrans vs P in 2011 January season,74% winrate for PvZ somewhere in 2012 I can't really remember.It's fairly easy to google shit so I'm told. In fact there are so many examples where the winrate for some race went over 65% that it's pretty sad. My point was just that there always are some people defending obvious imbalances whether it be maps,units,race mechanics or w/e,so people shouldn't be surprised. Also before these "patch zergs" the only foreign players who even took a game off koreans were mostly protoss,so yea. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On December 26 2012 06:57 UberNuB wrote: I am still going with the maps made far more of a difference than a random buff to Infestors (which I never understood why it was viewed as such a huge buff). Reasonably being pinned down twice as long seems like it would have been even more powerful than doing the damage twice as fast, since you reasonably will have Broodlords dealing the damage. Everybody was clamoring for new/bigger maps since forever until we reached the point three base Zerg at the 4:00 mark is not only possible, it is standard ZvP (and something like 6:00 for ZvT). Sure, Queens got a buff and that makes the early game somewhat more viable, but look at the maps we had to play on previously. Most those maps don't even have a logical third (without rocks). To put it into some perspective TDA was viewed as an amazing macro map when it came out (and it had rocks at its third). Metalopolis was the "best map" for quite some time, and it even had close ground + air spawns (in tournaments) for a while, and I don't recall when / if they ever took out the close air. Additionally, I can remember a GSL game where IdrA got ramp blocked (crap like this was possible on these maps). Before this map what was the best / most balanced? Xel'Naga Caverns. I don't know if you have played it recently, but it is absolutely horrible with the current meta-game. Besides Metalopolis most these early maps were very bad to take thirds without units (meaning way delayed Zerg death-ball), and even if there was a logical third any base after that was too close to your opponent for a Zerg to hold reasonably. Then you have to look at the meta-game; since players weren't macro-ing like crazy, they were actually attacking, and having to hold off attacks. From the spectators point of view, those "awful" maps, gave us significantly more exciting games. Not that I want maps like Steppes of War back, but at this point I actually kind of do in tournaments. Saying a double DPS Infestor and double (triple?) range Queen caused the current meta-game is laughable at best. I halfway agree with this. Smaller maps made for more interesting games, as being greedy was more easily punished, so players had to use more aggressive play-styles to come out on top. Now, with the huge maps we have, greedy play is much easier to get away with. On the other hand, buffs to Zerg and nerfs to Terran (and Protoss) have made it more difficult to put pressure on Zerg, and the impact of this is only heightened by the size of the maps in our current pool. I'd love to see some more small maps in our current map pools, and see what kind of results come out of that. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 26 2012 08:42 TheKefka wrote: Oh let's see.67% winrate TvP at GSL season1,70% winrate for zergs in season 2 against protoss,65% winrate for terrans vs P in 2011 January season,74% winrate for PvZ somewhere in 2012 I can't really remember.It's fairly easy to google shit so I'm told. In fact there are so many examples where the winrate for some race went over 65% that it's pretty sad. My point was just that there always are some people defending obvious imbalances whether it be maps,units,race mechanics or w/e,so people shouldn't be surprised. Also before these "patch zergs" the only foreign players who even took a game off koreans were mostly protoss,so yea. So by "points in time" you meant single tournaments, nice. Good luck with having equal winrates for every tournament out there. | ||
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Sc2Null
United States3754 Posts
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On December 26 2012 08:56 keglu wrote: So by "points in time" you meant single tournaments, nice. Good luck with having equal winrates for every tournament out there. Not sure if you are just trying to push my buttons or have no memories of how long some of these stretches were but I'm just gonna ignore you from now on. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 26 2012 09:20 TheKefka wrote: Not sure if you are just trying to push my buttons or have no memories of how long some of these stretches were but I'm just gonna ignore you from now on. We have monthly tournament results so there is no point using results from single tournaments. And there was never +60% winrates for any race so your 70% is just not in touch with reality. | ||
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
In SC2, Terran is strong early to mid game in TvZ but weak lategame OMG ZERGS TURTLING TO LATE GAME VS TERRAN! common sense = imba? lol In BW, you never see Protosses playing passive vs turtling Terrans they either do agressive harasses or expand greedily to gain advantages. SC2 Terran has the best harassing units and the best greedy expands (you can still make use of your orbital even if is not safe to expand with it). If you like to play passive or standard, you should switch to Zerg and Terran is not for you. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On December 26 2012 10:08 ppshchik wrote: Turtling to Broodlord Infestor is no different from BW Terrans doing Flash's turtling to 3/3 maxed mech off 3 base. I dont see a difference in strategies between Flash and other Terran's (besides Fantasy's) TvP yet I see no complains and still see fans licking Flash's balls. In SC2, Terran is strong early to mid game in TvZ but weak lategame OMG ZERGS TURTLING TO LATE GAME VS TERRAN! common sense = imba? lol In BW, you never see Protosses playing passive vs turtling Terrans they either do agressive harasses or expand greedily to gain advantages. SC2 Terran has the best harassing units and the best greedy expands (you can still make use of your orbital even jfit is not safe to expand with it). If you like to play passive or standard, you should switch to Zerg and Terran is not for you. It is more about that reaching Broodlord Infestor is to easy and that using it is to easy. Using Mech in BW is the opposite of easy in both of these cases. (atleast against Zerg) And the Strong early mid game for Terran in TvZ is something of the past, right now it is more Do or Die. And yeah harassing a Zerg, I guess it would work if creep tumors wouldn't be a better maphack then observers ever could be. Successful harassment means the Zerg did something wrong or is behind. And why should a Protoss play passive in BW against a Terran, Dragoons forces the Terran to turtle and you are free to do anything you like. The criticial moment is when the Terran moves out to kill the Protoss bases one by one, before the Toss tech is done or their macro will get out of hand. I mean there was crazy Zerg style in BW, where you instantly went on t3, but it was not the easiest thing to do. The biggest reason Broodlord Infestor is hated because Zerg is in no real danger on their way to t3. So early game and midgame lovers are out of the picture completely. Also it is a comeback killer, because if you are behind the Infestor count will get out of hand. Also it is a pretty positional play and you know how many people hated BW TvT. The issue here is though, Blizzard wanted to remove positional play as much as possible, so it is basically Zerg inching forward with nothing to stop them from grabbing position after position. And Zergs advantageous position is when there is creep, so everywhere on the map. Anyway Terran regained the range advantage after the patch, making it really hard for the Zerg to advance into a Terran position. And Toss don't have the Infested Terrans don't die problem anymore. So Broodlord Infestor is far from overpowered now and got a little bit harder to play. But everything else that makes this style so hated remained, so doubt people will stop arguing about it. Right now it is the Terrans and Toss time to make a move, because Zergies have adapted to the changes rather fast. (surprised me alot) | ||
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Consummate
Australia191 Posts
- Snipe nerf - EMP nerf - Blue flame hellion nerf All 3 of those nerfs transpired relatively quickly to when they were abused. With better maps, would they still be OP? Yes of course. What do most of Terran's early 2011 wins come from? Stim all ins on small maps where you can reach your opponent's natural in 30 seconds, or choo choo SCV trains for the same reason. There is no secret that Terran have the strongest early game advantage, and when you put them on a tiny map, their all in effectiveness is magnified. Look at those 2 all ins, and tell how how effective they are now. Choo Choo SCV train happens every now and then, and it is very possible to stop unless playing extremely greedy. Stim timings rarely, if ever, happen any more because travel distances have drastically reduced their effectiveness. It didn't help that most maps only allowed Zerg to have 2 bases because the 3rd was far and thus unsafe, so every game was just 1 base all ins by Terran | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On December 26 2012 10:08 ppshchik wrote: Turtling to Broodlord Infestor is no different from BW Terrans doing Flash's turtling to 3/3 maxed mech off 3 bases. I didn't follow that much BW but I seriously doubt Flash turtled for 20mins then boxed everything and a-moved to opponents base. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
On December 26 2012 10:41 zezamer wrote: I didn't follow that much BW but I seriously doubt Flash turtled for 20mins then boxed everything and a-moved to opponents base. He didn't.. In BW TvP it was the turtling player who had to do the harass damage. Whereas in SC2 it is the non-turtling player who does. Plus in BW the max terran army was immobile and very slow to set up with siege and mines.. whereas in SC2 the zerg player can create a powerful army off a turtle without sacrificing any mobility. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 26 2012 10:41 zezamer wrote: I didn't follow that much BW but I seriously doubt Flash turtled for 20mins then boxed everything and a-moved to opponents base. It was a terrible comparison. There really aren't any similarities between BL/Infestor and Flash's mech play. | ||
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Ace1123
Philippines1187 Posts
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On December 26 2012 11:40 Stratos_speAr wrote: It was a terrible comparison. There really aren't any similarities between BL/Infestor and Flash's mech play. He wasn't comparing them. He said that the players coming over from broodwar are playing a turtle to 3/3 maxed mech style in sc2 yet none of us criticize them. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 26 2012 12:20 Najda wrote: He wasn't comparing them. He said that the players coming over from broodwar are playing a turtle to 3/3 maxed mech style in sc2 yet none of us criticize them. ...No, his statement was pretty clear in comparing the two styles by saying that "Flash's mech style is no different than BL/Infestor". | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On December 26 2012 10:08 ppshchik wrote: Turtling to Broodlord Infestor is no different from BW Terrans doing Flash's turtling to 3/3 maxed mech off 3 bases. I dont see a difference in strategies between Flash and other Terran's (besides Fantasy's) TvP yet I see no complains and still see fans licking Flash's balls. In SC2, Terran is strong early to mid game in TvZ but weak lategame OMG ZERGS TURTLING TO LATE GAME VS TERRAN! common sense = imba? lol In BW, you never see Protosses playing passive vs turtling Terrans they either do agressive harasses or expand greedily to gain advantages. SC2 Terran has the best harassing units and the best greedy expands (you can still make use of your orbital even if is not safe to expand with it). If you like to play passive or standard, you should switch to Zerg and Terran is not for you. There is a difference. A big difference. What the difference is you'll have to see in the thread I'm posting in 6 hours. Teaser: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/56JZY.png) | ||
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