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On November 26 2012 06:44 Ziggitz wrote:
This would make Phoenixes way way too strong against Zerg. Phoenixes already have a ton of hit points. 120hp and 60 shields, a group of 4-5 already pick off queens handily and they can all burn their full energy picking up and killing drones under constant fire from a spore without ever losing a single phoenix. They already beat hydras handily and there is nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can catch them. Without fungal, there is no reason a pro level protoss would ever lose a single phoenix. They would be able to pull the Zerg back for much less relative investment by harassing drone lines, force a ton of spores and hydras or corruptors at times Zergs really don't want to make them and the investment in those AA defenses that aren't guaranteed to kill a single phoenix and that aren't useful with the main army like phoenixes are also means that the Protoss can keep up on bases where they are stronger already.
It would be completely fucking broken. Phoenixes would need a massive hitpoint nerf and/or speed nerf to make it work. As the fast air unit in the game with a ton of hitpoints(That also tend to be forgiving, spore hits often count for nothing because they burned all their energy killing drones already and the shields regen) it SHOULD be susceptible to a snaring ability and it should discourage their numbers getting too large, especially as an air unit with a disabling ability. If anything Mutalisks need to be more like phoenixes, less investment to reach them, come out sooner, and powerful in small numbers but it should be very risky to make them in large numbers.
From a ZvT perspective it forces Zergs to go Mutaling every game because without fungal drops are an absolute nightmare if you don't have mutas. Given this is a very figured out style, especially when the meta game forces you into it, it would also be terrible.
First, I agree in principle that it would be good to buff the hydra a bit. I've suggested bonus damage against light, because I think that gives the hydra a good role in base defense, and anti-all-ins. Its weaknesses (sucks against AOE) are less present in base-defense, because, well, if you have a colossus army in your base, it isn't base defense any more. Maybe buff hydra's already-considerable on-creep speed, too?
I think I disagree about Phoenix, though. Everything you said is true in PvP. And yet phoenix openings end up roughly even with everything else, because you don't kill very many drones (50 mana per drone kill means you can't rack 'em up), and because it allows your opponent to be super-greedy. Good players (see: Hero in yesterday's Dreamhack) don't lose phoenixes.
Given the effect of phoenixes in ZvP and PvP now, I don't think that this would necessarily overpower phoenixes. In the current metagame, phoenixes are simply never used after about 11 minutes (when infestors come out) - and yet, in that time, it's not like they do overwhelming damage, or, really, that much damage at all. Spores and queens are more than enough to hold them off when you drone like a madman.
-Cross (Edit: I'd originally considered removing only the root against air, but that wouldn't have fixed carriers being trash because of interceptor fungal. I could be talked back into it.)
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On November 26 2012 06:48 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:33 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 06:28 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 06:20 Crosswind wrote:
It's sort of weird. The following fix, in isolation, would pretty much fix every single balance issue in SC2:
Fungal Growth doesn't affect air units.
Let's enumerate why this simple idea works.
-Cross (...am I just wrong on this? What am I missing?) You're missing the fact that Hydra and Spire tech suck at holding air push and that Infestor is by far the main AA-Unit and in many situations the only viable anti-air, so making it unable to hit air would simply simply let Zerg with a structural weakness, they wouldnt be able to handle air As said many times and before, infestor issue is that Zerg is way too reliant on it, probably why Blizzard always said they'll avoid any direct nerf to it, and thus it need to be balanced with a spire/Hydralisk buffs So, what's an air push? I'm no world-beater, but I really haven't seen a single PvZ air timing attack except the +1 zealot w/ warp prism after phoenix...and the phoenixes aren't really the problem with that push. Augment this by giving Hydras like +1 or +2 bonus damage against light, making them more effective against almost every single unit used for harass (warped-in zealots, phoenixes, mutalisks in zvz, marines, banshees) -Cross Anything involving several air units, void, phoenix, banshee and even muta are exemples, but anything flying is relevant to that change. Spire tech is too specialized (Corruptor for blowing up massive air stuff, Muta for harass, the end) Hydralisk sucks, only infestor left. Every race have a way to AOE air units, Seeker miss, storm fungals all hit air for a reason, because if you dont have any anti-air AOE you're gonna be left with a structural weakness. A +1 +2 to light is meaningless, we're talking about a massive buff here, something that would make Hydra the main anti-air unit I dont think forcing fungal on ground only is a good way to start
I think Corruptors are ok by themselves against air in the mid to late game in army v army situations. The question is more about harass, and I think the buff to Hydras would have to be one making them the main anti-harass unit. Infestors do that now.
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On November 26 2012 06:20 Crosswind wrote:
It's sort of weird. The following fix, in isolation, would pretty much fix every single balance issue in SC2:
Fungal Growth doesn't affect air units.
Let's enumerate why this simple idea works.
PvZ:
1.) Stargate openers become less do-or-die - just a staple harass option. Zergs will produce queens and a few hydralisks for defense and focus on spreading creep. Void Rays still won't do very much damage, and zerg can reproduce drones a hell of a lot faster than phoenixes can put a dent in them. The "I get fungalled, I lose my entire army" syndrome disappears.
2.) Late game PvZ is fixed. Broodlord infestor dies to mass air. If somebody drops a million ITs, you can just...run away.
3.) Mid-game PvZ is fixed, too. Current timing pushes, the most mainstream of which do not involve air, are completely unaffected - Zerg can hold them fine. Warp Prism harass becomes better - Zerg has to spend the same resources against Protoss and Terran drop harass that they do in the rest of the game.
4.) Mid-game PvZ becomes longer - with a required investment in anti-drop and anti-harass, more Zergs probably get either spires or hydras.
TvZ:
1.) Defending drops is harder. More of a commitment to static defense required.
2.) Vikings, well-micro'd, become a super-viable way to deal with brood lords. T is still vulnerable to late-game tech switches, but a lot of the swinginess ("...one fungal started the chain which killed 300 medivacs") is removed.
-Cross (...am I just wrong on this? What am I missing?)
zvp still becomes nearly unwinnable in wol but with the viper and the speed hydras this change would actually be pretty good for hots. z anti air would probably still need a bit of a buff given that p air is improving as well.
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I agree with IdrA. For WoL that's not a good idea, and i don't think the current idea of Blizzard is good either. Perhaps if only Ghosts and HTs were immune.
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On November 26 2012 06:52 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:20 Crosswind wrote:
It's sort of weird. The following fix, in isolation, would pretty much fix every single balance issue in SC2:
Fungal Growth doesn't affect air units.
Let's enumerate why this simple idea works.
PvZ:
1.) Stargate openers become less do-or-die - just a staple harass option. Zergs will produce queens and a few hydralisks for defense and focus on spreading creep. Void Rays still won't do very much damage, and zerg can reproduce drones a hell of a lot faster than phoenixes can put a dent in them. The "I get fungalled, I lose my entire army" syndrome disappears.
2.) Late game PvZ is fixed. Broodlord infestor dies to mass air. If somebody drops a million ITs, you can just...run away.
3.) Mid-game PvZ is fixed, too. Current timing pushes, the most mainstream of which do not involve air, are completely unaffected - Zerg can hold them fine. Warp Prism harass becomes better - Zerg has to spend the same resources against Protoss and Terran drop harass that they do in the rest of the game.
4.) Mid-game PvZ becomes longer - with a required investment in anti-drop and anti-harass, more Zergs probably get either spires or hydras.
TvZ:
1.) Defending drops is harder. More of a commitment to static defense required.
2.) Vikings, well-micro'd, become a super-viable way to deal with brood lords. T is still vulnerable to late-game tech switches, but a lot of the swinginess ("...one fungal started the chain which killed 300 medivacs") is removed.
-Cross (...am I just wrong on this? What am I missing?) zvp still becomes nearly unwinnable in wol but with the viper and the speed hydras this change would actually be pretty good for hots. z anti air would probably still need a bit of a buff given that p air is improving as well.
And it would make HotS even more fun to watch with units not immediately freezing, making no micro possible
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On November 26 2012 06:52 IdrA wrote:
zvp still becomes nearly unwinnable in wol but with the viper and the speed hydras this change would actually be pretty good for hots. z anti air would probably still need a bit of a buff given that p air is improving as well.
A challenge, because you know more than I do about this:
What sort of buff would I have to give to hydras in order for this to not ruin Wings of Liberty?
I was considering:
Bonus damage against Light
Increased movement speed on creep
Would some combination of those two enable hydras to act as effective anti-allin tools, as well as effective anti-harass?
-Cross
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On November 26 2012 06:56 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:52 IdrA wrote:
zvp still becomes nearly unwinnable in wol but with the viper and the speed hydras this change would actually be pretty good for hots. z anti air would probably still need a bit of a buff given that p air is improving as well. A challenge, because you know more than I do about this: What sort of buff would I have to give to hydras in order for this to not ruin Wings of Liberty? I was considering: Bonus damage against Light Increased movement speed on creep Would some combination of those two enable hydras to act as effective anti-allin tools, as well as effective anti-harass? -Cross
hydras shoulda had a lair tech speed upgrade from the beginning. maybe a buff to their dps vs air only, mid game speed hydras might be enough of a deterrent for protoss to go heavy air that a dps buff becomes unneeded.
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On November 26 2012 06:51 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:44 Ziggitz wrote:
This would make Phoenixes way way too strong against Zerg. Phoenixes already have a ton of hit points. 120hp and 60 shields, a group of 4-5 already pick off queens handily and they can all burn their full energy picking up and killing drones under constant fire from a spore without ever losing a single phoenix. They already beat hydras handily and there is nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can catch them. Without fungal, there is no reason a pro level protoss would ever lose a single phoenix. They would be able to pull the Zerg back for much less relative investment by harassing drone lines, force a ton of spores and hydras or corruptors at times Zergs really don't want to make them and the investment in those AA defenses that aren't guaranteed to kill a single phoenix and that aren't useful with the main army like phoenixes are also means that the Protoss can keep up on bases where they are stronger already.
It would be completely fucking broken. Phoenixes would need a massive hitpoint nerf and/or speed nerf to make it work. As the fast air unit in the game with a ton of hitpoints(That also tend to be forgiving, spore hits often count for nothing because they burned all their energy killing drones already and the shields regen) it SHOULD be susceptible to a snaring ability and it should discourage their numbers getting too large, especially as an air unit with a disabling ability. If anything Mutalisks need to be more like phoenixes, less investment to reach them, come out sooner, and powerful in small numbers but it should be very risky to make them in large numbers.
From a ZvT perspective it forces Zergs to go Mutaling every game because without fungal drops are an absolute nightmare if you don't have mutas. Given this is a very figured out style, especially when the meta game forces you into it, it would also be terrible. First, I agree in principle that it would be good to buff the hydra a bit. I've suggested bonus damage against light, because I think that gives the hydra a good role in base defense, and anti-all-ins. Its weaknesses (sucks against AOE) are less present in base-defense, because, well, if you have a colossus army in your base, it isn't base defense any more. Maybe buff hydra's already-considerable on-creep speed, too? I think I disagree about Phoenix, though. Everything you said is true in PvP. And yet phoenix openings end up roughly even with everything else, because you don't kill very many drones (50 mana per drone kill means you can't rack 'em up), and because it allows your opponent to be super-greedy. Good players (see: Hero in yesterday's Dreamhack) don't lose phoenixes. Given the effect of phoenixes in ZvP and PvP now, I don't think that this would necessarily overpower phoenixes. In the current metagame, phoenixes are simply never used after about 11 minutes (when infestors come out) - and yet, in that time, it's not like they do overwhelming damage, or, really, that much damage at all. Spores and queens are more than enough to hold them off when you drone like a madman. -Cross (Edit: I'd originally considered removing only the root against air, but that wouldn't have fixed carriers being trash because of interceptor fungal. I could be talked back into it.)
Now they don't get used, but they will when there's nothing to keep them from flying in, picking up Infestors and flying out. That's ok against an army behind its Spine and Spore lines, but not against one that's trying to be out on the map. You'd be forced to sacrifice high-value units anytime you left the safety of your base. That's no bueno at all.
Interceptors are definitely a special case, and I don't know what the exact answer is there. Maybe reduce the damage against them to the point where multiple Fungals are required to kill them?
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On November 26 2012 06:51 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:44 Ziggitz wrote:
This would make Phoenixes way way too strong against Zerg. Phoenixes already have a ton of hit points. 120hp and 60 shields, a group of 4-5 already pick off queens handily and they can all burn their full energy picking up and killing drones under constant fire from a spore without ever losing a single phoenix. They already beat hydras handily and there is nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can catch them. Without fungal, there is no reason a pro level protoss would ever lose a single phoenix. They would be able to pull the Zerg back for much less relative investment by harassing drone lines, force a ton of spores and hydras or corruptors at times Zergs really don't want to make them and the investment in those AA defenses that aren't guaranteed to kill a single phoenix and that aren't useful with the main army like phoenixes are also means that the Protoss can keep up on bases where they are stronger already.
It would be completely fucking broken. Phoenixes would need a massive hitpoint nerf and/or speed nerf to make it work. As the fast air unit in the game with a ton of hitpoints(That also tend to be forgiving, spore hits often count for nothing because they burned all their energy killing drones already and the shields regen) it SHOULD be susceptible to a snaring ability and it should discourage their numbers getting too large, especially as an air unit with a disabling ability. If anything Mutalisks need to be more like phoenixes, less investment to reach them, come out sooner, and powerful in small numbers but it should be very risky to make them in large numbers.
From a ZvT perspective it forces Zergs to go Mutaling every game because without fungal drops are an absolute nightmare if you don't have mutas. Given this is a very figured out style, especially when the meta game forces you into it, it would also be terrible. First, I agree in principle that it would be good to buff the hydra a bit. I've suggested bonus damage against light, because I think that gives the hydra a good role in base defense, and anti-all-ins. Its weaknesses (sucks against AOE) are less present in base-defense, because, well, if you have a colossus army in your base, it isn't base defense any more. Maybe buff hydra's already-considerable on-creep speed, too? I think I disagree about Phoenix, though. Everything you said is true in PvP. And yet phoenix openings end up roughly even with everything else, because you don't kill very many drones (50 mana per drone kill means you can't rack 'em up), and because it allows your opponent to be super-greedy. Good players (see: Hero in yesterday's Dreamhack) don't lose phoenixes. Given the effect of phoenixes in ZvP and PvP now, I don't think that this would necessarily overpower phoenixes. In the current metagame, phoenixes are simply never used after about 11 minutes (when infestors come out) - and yet, in that time, it's not like they do overwhelming damage, or, really, that much damage at all. Spores and queens are more than enough to hold them off when you drone like a madman. -Cross (Edit: I'd originally considered removing only the root against air, but that wouldn't have fixed carriers being trash because of interceptor fungal. I could be talked back into it.)
I think they tried this before. Zerg just died to double stargate mass air -> colossus transition.
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On November 26 2012 06:58 IdrA wrote:
hydras shoulda had a lair tech speed upgrade from the beginning. maybe a buff to their dps vs air only, mid game speed hydras might be enough of a deterrent for protoss to go heavy air that a dps buff becomes unneeded.
Sounds fair - problem solved. Further, a lair-tech speed upgrade (that also improves on-creep speed) gives Zerg an opportunity to do counter-micro against drops and gives us interesting APM/Micro-tests during mid-game harass.
So, how do I go about getting blizzard to do this? =P
-Cross
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On November 26 2012 07:01 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:58 IdrA wrote:
hydras shoulda had a lair tech speed upgrade from the beginning. maybe a buff to their dps vs air only, mid game speed hydras might be enough of a deterrent for protoss to go heavy air that a dps buff becomes unneeded. Sounds fair - problem solved. Further, a lair-tech speed upgrade (that also improves on-creep speed) gives Zerg an opportunity to do counter-micro against drops and gives us interesting APM/Micro-tests during mid-game harass. So, how do I go about getting blizzard to do this? =P -Cross
Don't even need to try doing that. 
It's not a new idea and there were many threads long time ago about the Hydra needing a speed upgrade. Gonna be a "cool" thing of HotS. :S
edit: As for the anti air buff.... nah i don't think it would be fine to get both of those things. Only one, but i'd prefer the speed upgrade.
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On November 26 2012 07:01 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:58 IdrA wrote:
hydras shoulda had a lair tech speed upgrade from the beginning. maybe a buff to their dps vs air only, mid game speed hydras might be enough of a deterrent for protoss to go heavy air that a dps buff becomes unneeded. Sounds fair - problem solved. Further, a lair-tech speed upgrade (that also improves on-creep speed) gives Zerg an opportunity to do counter-micro against drops and gives us interesting APM/Micro-tests during mid-game harass. So, how do I go about getting blizzard to do this? =P -Cross
You dont, all these awesome change and watch blizzard will just nerf/buff some random unit/ability nobody use, like "Thors strike cannon now do 1000 damage". But they will add some destructible debris and name them in your honor if you would like.
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On November 26 2012 06:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:56 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 06:52 IdrA wrote:
zvp still becomes nearly unwinnable in wol but with the viper and the speed hydras this change would actually be pretty good for hots. z anti air would probably still need a bit of a buff given that p air is improving as well. A challenge, because you know more than I do about this: What sort of buff would I have to give to hydras in order for this to not ruin Wings of Liberty? I was considering: Bonus damage against Light Increased movement speed on creep Would some combination of those two enable hydras to act as effective anti-allin tools, as well as effective anti-harass? -Cross hydras shoulda had a lair tech speed upgrade from the beginning. maybe a buff to their dps vs air only, mid game speed hydras might be enough of a deterrent for protoss to go heavy air that a dps buff becomes unneeded.
To clarify, this depends entirely on the Viper being in-game to counter Collosus play, correct? So it's not a viable change for WoL?
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On November 26 2012 07:03 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:01 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 06:58 IdrA wrote:
hydras shoulda had a lair tech speed upgrade from the beginning. maybe a buff to their dps vs air only, mid game speed hydras might be enough of a deterrent for protoss to go heavy air that a dps buff becomes unneeded. Sounds fair - problem solved. Further, a lair-tech speed upgrade (that also improves on-creep speed) gives Zerg an opportunity to do counter-micro against drops and gives us interesting APM/Micro-tests during mid-game harass. So, how do I go about getting blizzard to do this? =P -Cross Don't even need to try doing that. It's not a new idea and there were many threads long time ago about the Hydra needing a speed upgrade. Gonna be a "cool" thing of HotS. :S edit: As for the anti air buff.... nah i don't think it would be fine to get both of those things. Only one, but i'd prefer the speed upgrade.
Sadly this is hive-tech only in Hots, so I doubt hydra will be much more relevant than they are today
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On November 26 2012 06:59 phodacbiet wrote:
I think they tried this before. Zerg just died to double stargate mass air -> colossus transition.
On November 26 2012 06:58 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Now they don't get used, but they will when there's nothing to keep them from flying in, picking up Infestors and flying out. That's ok against an army behind its Spine and Spore lines, but not against one that's trying to be out on the map. You'd be forced to sacrifice high-value units anytime you left the safety of your base. That's no bueno at all.
Interceptors are definitely a special case, and I don't know what the exact answer is there. Maybe reduce the damage against them to the point where multiple Fungals are required to kill them?
Responding to these two bits. So, the primary issue now is that Infestors are the main army unit, as opposed to a support unit (like every other caster). If you're going infestors as support for ling/muta (give it added anti-ground oomph, or the ability to assault a base), or infestors as support for roach/hydra (obvious), or infestors as harass, you've already got the things that are going to kill the phoenix if they come for the infestors (hydras, mutas, or corrupters from spire tech).
I don't think mass phoenix is ever going to be a super-great play against Zerg, because it requires SO much investment, and has 0 defensive value.
-Cross (Edit - curious as to where they tried this before. Double stargate off of 2 base is stuuuuuupid greedy. Seems like it would die to almost any attack)
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On November 26 2012 07:06 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:03 HolydaKing wrote:On November 26 2012 07:01 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 06:58 IdrA wrote:
hydras shoulda had a lair tech speed upgrade from the beginning. maybe a buff to their dps vs air only, mid game speed hydras might be enough of a deterrent for protoss to go heavy air that a dps buff becomes unneeded. Sounds fair - problem solved. Further, a lair-tech speed upgrade (that also improves on-creep speed) gives Zerg an opportunity to do counter-micro against drops and gives us interesting APM/Micro-tests during mid-game harass. So, how do I go about getting blizzard to do this? =P -Cross Don't even need to try doing that. It's not a new idea and there were many threads long time ago about the Hydra needing a speed upgrade. Gonna be a "cool" thing of HotS. :S edit: As for the anti air buff.... nah i don't think it would be fine to get both of those things. Only one, but i'd prefer the speed upgrade. Sadly this is hive-tech only in Hots, so I doubt hydra will be much more relevant than they are today
Actually, from watching Idra's stream, Roach/Hydra/Viper is a much better composition than any Hydra-based compositions in WoL.
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On November 26 2012 07:06 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:59 phodacbiet wrote:
I think they tried this before. Zerg just died to double stargate mass air -> colossus transition.
Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:58 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Now they don't get used, but they will when there's nothing to keep them from flying in, picking up Infestors and flying out. That's ok against an army behind its Spine and Spore lines, but not against one that's trying to be out on the map. You'd be forced to sacrifice high-value units anytime you left the safety of your base. That's no bueno at all.
Interceptors are definitely a special case, and I don't know what the exact answer is there. Maybe reduce the damage against them to the point where multiple Fungals are required to kill them? Responding to these two bits. So, the primary issue now is that Infestors are the main army unit, as opposed to a support unit (like every other caster). If you're going infestors as support for ling/muta (give it added anti-ground oomph, or the ability to assault a base), or infestors as support for roach/hydra (obvious), or infestors as harass, you've already got the things that are going to kill the phoenix if they come for the infestors (hydras, mutas, or corrupters from spire tech). I don't think mass phoenix is ever going to be a super-great play against Zerg, because it requires SO much investment, and has 0 defensive value. -Cross (Edit - curious as to where they tried this before. Double stargate off of 2 base is stuuuuuupid greedy. Seems like it would die to almost any attack)
If you're going for those compositions. Right now there's really no reason to in general play. Against the current playstyle of Ling/Roach/Infestor to BL/Infestor, unFungalable Phoenixes really mess shit up.
Edit: So to clarify, if the proposed nerf to Infestors happens without a corresponding buff, it's going to cause serious problems. If it's coupled with a buff to other units, then things might be ok. More mobile Hydras would be one answer.
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On November 26 2012 06:49 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Maybe a halfway approach where Fungal damages air units but does not root them. That would give it at least some effectiveness against Phoenixes and especially lategame Vikings.
It wouldn't work, a single fungal against a phoenix is half of it's shield hitpoints. That means that the phoenixes would have to be under fungal for 4 seconds, get hit with it again, and then get hit with it again 4 seconds later to even start taking permanent damage, and they would be able to easily split up after the first fungal, to prevent them all from getting hit the second time. What would happen is you sit an infestor in a mineral line with a spore, the phoenixes show up, eat the fungal, pick up and kill the infestor, go to town on the drones and in the end one phoenix that got hit by the spore and the fungal takes a little bit of actual damage, i.e. pretty much what would happen with fungal couldn't hit air at all.
On November 26 2012 06:51 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:44 Ziggitz wrote:
This would make Phoenixes way way too strong against Zerg. Phoenixes already have a ton of hit points. 120hp and 60 shields, a group of 4-5 already pick off queens handily and they can all burn their full energy picking up and killing drones under constant fire from a spore without ever losing a single phoenix. They already beat hydras handily and there is nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can catch them. Without fungal, there is no reason a pro level protoss would ever lose a single phoenix. They would be able to pull the Zerg back for much less relative investment by harassing drone lines, force a ton of spores and hydras or corruptors at times Zergs really don't want to make them and the investment in those AA defenses that aren't guaranteed to kill a single phoenix and that aren't useful with the main army like phoenixes are also means that the Protoss can keep up on bases where they are stronger already.
It would be completely fucking broken. Phoenixes would need a massive hitpoint nerf and/or speed nerf to make it work. As the fast air unit in the game with a ton of hitpoints(That also tend to be forgiving, spore hits often count for nothing because they burned all their energy killing drones already and the shields regen) it SHOULD be susceptible to a snaring ability and it should discourage their numbers getting too large, especially as an air unit with a disabling ability. If anything Mutalisks need to be more like phoenixes, less investment to reach them, come out sooner, and powerful in small numbers but it should be very risky to make them in large numbers.
From a ZvT perspective it forces Zergs to go Mutaling every game because without fungal drops are an absolute nightmare if you don't have mutas. Given this is a very figured out style, especially when the meta game forces you into it, it would also be terrible. First, I agree in principle that it would be good to buff the hydra a bit. I've suggested bonus damage against light, because I think that gives the hydra a good role in base defense, and anti-all-ins. Its weaknesses (sucks against AOE) are less present in base-defense, because, well, if you have a colossus army in your base, it isn't base defense any more. Maybe buff hydra's already-considerable on-creep speed, too? I think I disagree about Phoenix, though. Everything you said is true in PvP. And yet phoenix openings end up roughly even with everything else, because you don't kill very many drones (50 mana per drone kill means you can't rack 'em up), and because it allows your opponent to be super-greedy. Good players (see: Hero in yesterday's Dreamhack) don't lose phoenixes. Given the effect of phoenixes in ZvP and PvP now, I don't think that this would necessarily overpower phoenixes. In the current metagame, phoenixes are simply never used after about 11 minutes (when infestors come out) - and yet, in that time, it's not like they do overwhelming damage, or, really, that much damage at all. Spores and queens are more than enough to hold them off when you drone like a madman. -Cross (Edit: I'd originally considered removing only the root against air, but that wouldn't have fixed carriers being trash because of interceptor fungal. I could be talked back into it.)
Bonus damage on the hydra to light wouldn't work. Phoenixes pick them up and kill them so fast that they rarely get to do any damage before dying. One of two things usually happen when hydras fight phoenixes head on.
1.) The hydras evaporate as they get picked up and picked off one by one extremely quickly.
2.) There are so many hydras that the phoenixes are dying before they can pick up and kill hydras and they evaporate.
There is no middle ground here. What adding +1 or 2 damage to light for them would do is reduce the amount of hydras need to evaporate phoenixes a little bit, but does not deter the protoss from massing phoenixes and forces the Zerg down a delaying tech path that won't actually do anything to defend against it because as soon as all those hydras are in one spot the phoenixes just go somewhere else. It's like paying 50 minerals and 25 gas for a stimless marine against mutas that are faster, do more damage and have 50% more hitpoints. But it doesn't mean that a decent group of phoenixes will ever trade badly with a number of hydras not big enough to wipe them all out. Which means if you can kill them, they can go elsewhere, and if you can't then all your hydras die. It's not like with marines where 10 stimmed marines will die to 10 mutas but the mutas will pay dearly, it's a fairly binary outcome instead, which is bad for the game.
The issue with what you're talking about has to do with talking that early game phoenix harrass and extending it into the late game with little to no additional risk or investment. We're talking about a phoenix that was designed to kill 4-5 drones and force a spore now killing 8 - 10 drones over the course of the game and forcing 2-3 spores each because the Zerg doesn't have infestors to deter it. That WILL break balance.
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On November 26 2012 07:03 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
To clarify, this depends entirely on the Viper being in-game to counter Collosus play, correct? So it's not a viable change for WoL?
Do any of these changes have anything to do with countering Colossus play?
To summarize the proposed changes:
Fungal doesn't hit air.
Lair-tech hydra speed upgrade.
Maybe bonus damage for hydras vs. light or air.
I'm not seeing how that requires vipers or any other HotS stuff to work.
-Cross
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On November 26 2012 07:11 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:49 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Maybe a halfway approach where Fungal damages air units but does not root them. That would give it at least some effectiveness against Phoenixes and especially lategame Vikings. It wouldn't work, a single fungal against a phoenix is half of it's shield hitpoints. That means that the phoenixes would have to be under fungal for 4 seconds, get hit with it again, and then get hit with it again 4 seconds later to even start taking permanent damage, and they would be able to easily split up after the first fungal, to prevent them all from getting hit the second time. What would happen is you sit an infestor in a mineral line with a spore, the phoenixes show up, eat the fungal, pick up and kill the infestor, go to town on the drones and in the end one phoenix that got hit by the spore and the fungal takes a little bit of actual damage, i.e. pretty much what would happen with fungal couldn't hit air at all.
I was primarily thinking about Vikings there in lategame situations. Against Phoenix harass the root is pretty necessary as things stand.
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EPT
