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On November 26 2012 03:18 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 03:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Being able to forcefield does not make you a better player. Some might even say, forcefielding is a very useful talent toi have... Being able to A-move and learn a recipe by rote does not make you a better player. Some might even say it makes you a well-trained chimp with no creativity, strategic ability, or even impressive micro skill.
You thinking that protoss is harder than zerg, or any other race is silly. Protoss is not harder than zerg which is not harder than terran. All races are pretty uniquely challenging in their own aspects and none more difficult than the others.
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On November 26 2012 03:22 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 03:16 Protosnake wrote:
I think everyone can see how biased you are, acting like you have to do "all of this hard stuff" to win when Zerg "just a-move"
Truth is that if you do all this correctly, you wont lose a single match, also most of the thing you listed are not hard, Blink micro isnt hard, so is FFing, many thing in SC2 arent hard at all, doing them all at the same time is FF IS hard. Most grandmasters can't even reliably do it well. I know this from streams. Blinking individual stalkers in engagements is an APM sink, and blink generally adds tactical depth because of its utility in positioning. Even if these things weren't hard, so what? What's your argument? Zerg should be allowed to A-move because you don't consider that "micro" stuff to be very hard? Playing zerg is hard. most grandmasters can't even reliably do it well. I know this from streams.
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On November 26 2012 03:22 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 03:16 Protosnake wrote:
I think everyone can see how biased you are, acting like you have to do "all of this hard stuff" to win when Zerg "just a-move"
Truth is that if you do all this correctly, you wont lose a single match, also most of the thing you listed are not hard, Blink micro isnt hard, so is FFing, many thing in SC2 arent hard at all, doing them all at the same time is FF IS hard. Most grandmasters can't even reliably do it well. I know this from streams. Blinking individual stalkers in engagements is an APM sink, and blink generally adds tactical depth because of its utility in positioning. Even if these things weren't hard, so what? What's your argument? Zerg should be allowed to A-move because you don't consider that "micro" stuff to be very hard?
FF isnt hard, most grandmaster reliably do it well and I know this from stream aswell, they dont have "perfect forcefield" but you never need "Perfect forcefield". Good do the job most of the time if you're not massively behind.
Blinking being an APM sing does not make it hard, I saw plat players with almost perfect blinks because of how predictable and straight forward it is.
Blink toward cliff and holes does not count as Micro and even less as hard micro.
You keep mentionning A-move like if it was consistent at high level, when most of the time there are surround, flank, baiting and focus fire going on, Zerg micro is less demanding that protoss micro but it is also less rewarding. And Z is harder to play in many other departments
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On November 26 2012 02:43 TheSwamp wrote:
and now we've already seen Terrans in the GSL figure out how to deal with infestor/BL play.
Really? What's the answer then?
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On November 26 2012 03:22 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 03:16 Protosnake wrote:
I think everyone can see how biased you are, acting like you have to do "all of this hard stuff" to win when Zerg "just a-move"
Truth is that if you do all this correctly, you wont lose a single match, also most of the thing you listed are not hard, Blink micro isnt hard, so is FFing, many thing in SC2 arent hard at all, doing them all at the same time is FF IS hard. Most grandmasters can't even reliably do it well. I know this from streams. Blinking individual stalkers in engagements is an APM sink, and blink generally adds tactical depth because of its utility in positioning. Even if these things weren't hard, so what? What's your argument? Zerg should be allowed to A-move because you don't consider that "micro" stuff to be very hard?
If you play zerg and you A-move into a protoss army you are gonna get slaughtered. Also explain to me how this much more demanding race gets away with having much less APM and SQ than the other races?
If it really was the case you'd see a much larger group of pro zergs. And by that I don't mean a the solid group we have of insanely good zerg players. I mean the fundation of pro level would be filled with Zerg players who are capitalizing on the "easier race"
Your points are ridiculous and way off topic. Making a list of what you have to do with each units is really silly as well cause you can litterally do that for every race with every unit in every situation.
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On November 26 2012 03:30 Protosnake wrote:
FF isnt hard, most grandmaster reliably do it well and I know this from stream aswell, they dont have "perfect forcefield" but you never need "Perfect forcefield". Good do the job most of the time if you're not massively behind. Well, you do need perfect force fields in many cases. Otherwise anyone out of the tens of thousands of Protosses would be able to immortal all-in like Parting.
[Blinking being an APM sing does not make it hard, I saw plat players with almost perfect blinks because of how predictable and straight forward it is. You don't seem to understand that almost ANY individual piece of micro can be done by plats. The hard part is chaining it all together. This means that any APM sink is going to make the game harder.
You keep mentionning A-move like if it was consistent at high level, when most of the time there are surround, flank, baiting and focus fire going on, Zerg micro is less demanding that protoss micro but it is also less rewarding. And Z is harder to play in many other departments Well, sure. It's not easy. What annoys me about Zerg is that they hardly ever change their strategies or tactics. Becase they don't need to. The design of the race seems to reward playing without creativity.
On November 26 2012 03:37 Cereb wrote:
If it really was the case you'd see a much larger group of pro zergs. And by that I don't mean a the solid group we have of insanely good zerg players. I mean the fundation of pro level would be filled with Zerg players who are capitalizing on the "easier race". Well, you do to a certain extent. All the time new Zergs are popping out of the woodwork and beating veteran Protoss and Terran players. Hardly ever do you see the converse.
Anyway...not gonna debate this further, as I've said all that needs saying.
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On November 26 2012 03:40 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 03:30 Protosnake wrote:
FF isnt hard, most grandmaster reliably do it well and I know this from stream aswell, they dont have "perfect forcefield" but you never need "Perfect forcefield". Good do the job most of the time if you're not massively behind. Well, you do need perfect force fields in many cases. Otherwise anyone out of the tens of thousands of Protosses would be able to immortal all-in like Parting. Show nested quote +[Blinking being an APM sing does not make it hard, I saw plat players with almost perfect blinks because of how predictable and straight forward it is. You don't seem to understand that almost ANY individual piece of micro can be done by plats. The hard part is chaining it all together. This means that any APM sink is going to make the game harder. Show nested quote +You keep mentionning A-move like if it was consistent at high level, when most of the time there are surround, flank, baiting and focus fire going on, Zerg micro is less demanding that protoss micro but it is also less rewarding. And Z is harder to play in many other departments Well, sure. It's not easy. What annoys me about Zerg is that they hardly ever change their strategies or tactics. The race seems to reward playing without creativity. Anyway...not gonna debate this further, as I've said all I need to say.
Parting's immortal/sentry timing uses a combination of things, and while FF is important it isnt the only reason why it wins him games.
1) Timing
2) Micro
3) Protecting his immortals
4) Using a forward pylon with the WP for reinforcements
5) Not delaying his macro while still keeping up on his micro
If you watch him, his WP/immortal micro is crazy good. They pretty much always have like 40 kills.
Protoss micro is precision oriented, terran is more speed oriented and zerg is maybe a bit more positional/speed oriented (positional mostly because you have to engage in proper areas or you could lose)
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Can we get back to "balance testing" here please?
Do the changes do what they promise?
Is the map really the best map for testing a nerf to Zerg OR does it skew the results because it is generally considered to be hard for Zerg? If the answers to this two-part question are NO and YES then Blizzard has screwed up again ...
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On November 26 2012 03:40 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 03:30 Protosnake wrote:
FF isnt hard, most grandmaster reliably do it well and I know this from stream aswell, they dont have "perfect forcefield" but you never need "Perfect forcefield". Good do the job most of the time if you're not massively behind. Well, you do need perfect force fields in many cases. Otherwise anyone out of the tens of thousands of Protosses would be able to immortal all-in like Parting. Show nested quote +[Blinking being an APM sing does not make it hard, I saw plat players with almost perfect blinks because of how predictable and straight forward it is. You don't seem to understand that almost ANY individual piece of micro can be done by plats. The hard part is chaining it all together. This means that any APM sink is going to make the game harder. Show nested quote +You keep mentionning A-move like if it was consistent at high level, when most of the time there are surround, flank, baiting and focus fire going on, Zerg micro is less demanding that protoss micro but it is also less rewarding. And Z is harder to play in many other departments Well, sure. It's not easy. What annoys me about Zerg is that they hardly ever change their strategies or tactics. Becase they don't need to. The design of the race seems to reward playing without creativity. Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 03:37 Cereb wrote:
If it really was the case you'd see a much larger group of pro zergs. And by that I don't mean a the solid group we have of insanely good zerg players. I mean the fundation of pro level would be filled with Zerg players who are capitalizing on the "easier race". Well, you do to a certain extent. All the time new Zergs are popping out of the woodwork and beating veteran Protoss and Terran players. Hardly ever do you see the converse. Anyway...not gonna debate this further, as I've said all that needs saying.
Even pro players dont have perfect forcefields, you see overlapping, wasted FF, sloppy FF everytime, the only hard part is the last, when you have to do it reactively instead of just having a plan prepared and laying down the map editor.
You also seems to fail to read all of my post because I expressely said in the same post that nothing was really hard in SC2, the true difficult thing in SC2 is multitask, so I know about blink. It doesnt stop anyone from doing basic micro with it.
Zerg metagame have probably been the richiest of all the races these 2 few years, my personal opinion is that race that play the most standard is Protoss
You see new Protoss and Terran beat zerg veterans all the time, especially protoss players. I wont start the linkfest because it's pointless, and the main reason you think that is probably because you dont have the same definition of newcomers and veterans for every races
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What do you guys think about making phoenix psionic with this patch? This would make air units more viable in PvZ once more and allow phoenix to continue to be useful once infestors are out because they can't all be eliminated the first time they get caught with a fungal. There would also be a specific use for them in large army engagements where they can run in a lift the infestors to stop them from casting. Like a less useful HT feedback, but at least lets them contribute.
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On November 26 2012 03:57 Fuhrmaaj wrote:
What do you guys think about making phoenix psionic with this patch? This would make air units more viable in PvZ once more and allow phoenix to continue to be useful once infestors are out because they can't all be eliminated the first time they get caught with a fungal. There would also be a specific use for them in large army engagements where they can run in a lift the infestors to stop them from casting. Like a less useful HT feedback, but at least lets them contribute.
Well, with Phoenixes as fast as they are, the only way to kill them would be Hydras. Infested Terrans wouldn't be able to do the job in harass situations without Fungal. The P player just flies the Phoenixes away before the ITs pop. So that would be a really large buff. You'd have to remove the Psionic tag from something fairly significant, probably either Sentries or Warp Prisms.
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On November 26 2012 03:57 Fuhrmaaj wrote:
What do you guys think about making phoenix psionic with this patch? This would make air units more viable in PvZ once more and allow phoenix to continue to be useful once infestors are out because they can't all be eliminated the first time they get caught with a fungal. There would also be a specific use for them in large army engagements where they can run in a lift the infestors to stop them from casting. Like a less useful HT feedback, but at least lets them contribute.
Sigh.......is this a joke?
Why not actually make every single protoss unit psionic so fungal gets phased out completely? Zealots should be definitely psionic and so should be Stalkers. I mean It's Protoss after all. Even Probes should be psionic in some way because they can warp stuff in and that's clearly a psionic thing. Not to mention observers. They are permanently cloaked. That's definitely something psionic. What about colossi? I mean look at how tall they are. Like.....psionically tall or something.
And don't get me started on immortals. Being immortal surely requires psionic energy.....
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Take away psionic tag, fungal shouldn't be able to affect these units first.
Fungal Growth no longer affects High / Dark Templar, Mothership, Raven, infestor.
Then after this test, if fungal is still a problem, slowly start adding units to the list. Including ALL psionic units immediately would put Z in a downward spiral, or Z would have to start utilizing burrow more. Burrow is an ability I don't think Z uses effectively enough.
And make the seeker free, I want to see the Raven used in more games. It's a sick unit.
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The change is colossally stupid and it will never work. Nerfing the one patch Zerg got to fix its ZvP problems is only going to make the game worse. Especially the notion of making the high value targets more protected makes the game even more of a deathball fest.
Zergs cannot deal reasonable damage to a large immortal gateway ball. The issue is that lings get shutout by forcefields and roaches can form a one roach thick line against forcefields to shoot in. Hydras are easily countered because they have to be made reactively and if that's the case, they often don't have enough and just die anyway. If they do have enough, tier 3 is delayed long enough that you make a couple colossi and then win.
With short range tier 1 units, appallingly low dps for mutas and the obvious deficiencies for hydras, the infestor's fungal growth remains the only way to deal with a lot of the bullshit that Protoss can do against Zerg. Yes that sucks, but if you want to nerf infestors then drops, nydus, hydras, mutas, or corruptors need a huge buff, becaue without infestors or broodlords there's a huge fucking gap where Zerg has no options to actually deal any damage to a protoss deathball with just a handful of forcefields.
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On November 26 2012 04:35 Ziggitz wrote:With short range tier 1 units, appallingly low dps for mutas and the obvious deficiencies for hydras, the infestor's fungal growth remains the only way to deal with a lot of the bullshit that Protoss can do against Zerg. Yes that sucks, but if you want to nerf infestors then drops, nydus, hydras, mutas, or corruptors need a huge buff, becaue without infestors or broodlords there's a huge fucking gap where Zerg has no options to actually deal any damage to a protoss deathball with just a handful of forcefields.
Lots of people agree with this, I think. Nerfing the Infestor (which is a good idea) requires buffing some other aspect of the Zerg army, preferably at Lair tech. It'd require a very delicate touch, too, since TvZ is in a fairly delicate state at the moment.
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On November 26 2012 03:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 02:43 TheSwamp wrote:
and now we've already seen Terrans in the GSL figure out how to deal with infestor/BL play. Really? What's the answer then?
Good viking spread, Ghosts, Ravens, non-stop dropping, avoiding the army, starving them out, not letting them get to the composition...
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On November 26 2012 03:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 02:43 TheSwamp wrote:
and now we've already seen Terrans in the GSL figure out how to deal with infestor/BL play. Really? What's the answer then?
If zerg doesnt use infestor/BL, what is the zergs answer to T in the late game?
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On November 26 2012 04:19 Di3s3l wrote:
Take away psionic tag, fungal shouldn't be able to affect these units first.
Fungal Growth no longer affects High / Dark Templar, Mothership, Raven, infestor.
Then after this test, if fungal is still a problem, slowly start adding units to the list. Including ALL psionic units immediately would put Z in a downward spiral, or Z would have to start utilizing burrow more. Burrow is an ability I don't think Z uses effectively enough.
And make the seeker free, I want to see the Raven used in more games. It's a sick unit.
Raven is not psionic (yet).
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EPT
