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SRBNikola
Serbia191 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:27 TheRabidDeer wrote: If zerg doesnt use infestor/BL, what is the zergs answer to T in the late game? ? Ultralisk, BL baneling, Muta Lisk Baneling... | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
edit; Poster above me.. you want zergs to go muta bane in the late game vs T? wtf? | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:08 SRBNikola wrote: ? Ultralisk, BL baneling, Muta Lisk Baneling... Infestor is definitely required for any sort of Ultra/Ling/Bane play, and Muta/Ling/Bane has been figured out for a year now. It's viable at times, but not any sort of consistently useful lategame. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:08 SRBNikola wrote: ? Ultralisk, BL baneling, Muta Lisk Baneling... Ultralisks have been regarded as suicide ZvT for a long while and flat out dont work on many maps due to the layout. BL/baneling? I have never heard of this composition, but what do you do against vikings? Muta/ling/bling doesnt work in the late game. Marines and the general micro from terran is too strong in the late game against this composition. It has been figured out for AGES now. | ||
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Channel Pressure
United States62 Posts
On November 25 2012 15:11 m0ck wrote: Sentries are useful until BLs arrive, and they are essential in most pushes until BLs. Go watch a match with a three-base push and tell me sentries are useless. The immortal-pushes are done with blink-stalkers and observer. Using your gas for banelings, burrowed movement or drop just don't work. You will have significantly less fighting units and all options are handed well by the composition. Do you really believe that the pro-players have not tested out banelings and drop against the immortal-push? Zergs skip mid-game and rush to BLs because there is no way of being aggressive against established 3-base protoss without them - in fact, they have to hide behind 15+ spines and use corrupters to not simply die to 14+ minute pushes. Zergs need tier 3 to fight the tier 1 and 2 of protoss and terran. You're thinking of the wrong push. Their are two 2 baseish timings, one is a strictly immortal/sentry/warp prism timing, the other is like a +2/+1 blink/immortal timing with a warp prism, or some variation of that. Immortal/stalker/sentry is too expensive on two bases, because between stalkers, immortals, and sentrys, you are consuming too much gas (unless you are losing absolutely nothing, and thats still tough on gas) | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
Fungal Growth doesn't affect air units. Let's enumerate why this simple idea works. PvZ: 1.) Stargate openers become less do-or-die - just a staple harass option. Zergs will produce queens and a few hydralisks for defense and focus on spreading creep. Void Rays still won't do very much damage, and zerg can reproduce drones a hell of a lot faster than phoenixes can put a dent in them. The "I get fungalled, I lose my entire army" syndrome disappears. 2.) Late game PvZ is fixed. Broodlord infestor dies to mass air. If somebody drops a million ITs, you can just...run away. 3.) Mid-game PvZ is fixed, too. Current timing pushes, the most mainstream of which do not involve air, are completely unaffected - Zerg can hold them fine. Warp Prism harass becomes better - Zerg has to spend the same resources against Protoss and Terran drop harass that they do in the rest of the game. 4.) Mid-game PvZ becomes longer - with a required investment in anti-drop and anti-harass, more Zergs probably get either spires or hydras. TvZ: 1.) Defending drops is harder. More of a commitment to static defense required. 2.) Vikings, well-micro'd, become a super-viable way to deal with brood lords. T is still vulnerable to late-game tech switches, but a lot of the swinginess ("...one fungal started the chain which killed 300 medivacs") is removed. -Cross (...am I just wrong on this? What am I missing?) | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:20 Crosswind wrote: It's sort of weird. The following fix, in isolation, would pretty much fix every single balance issue in SC2: Fungal Growth doesn't affect air units. Let's enumerate why this simple idea works. -Cross (...am I just wrong on this? What am I missing?) You're missing the fact that Hydra and Spire tech suck at holding air push and that Infestor is by far the main AA-Unit and in many situations the only viable anti-air, so making it unable to hit air would simply simply let Zerg with a structural weakness, they wouldnt be able to handle air As said many times and before, infestor issue is that Zerg is way too reliant on it, probably why Blizzard always said they'll avoid any direct nerf to it, and thus it need to be balanced with a spire/Hydralisk buffs | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:20 Crosswind wrote: It's sort of weird. The following fix, in isolation, would pretty much fix every single balance issue in SC2: Fungal Growth doesn't affect air units. Let's enumerate why this simple idea works. PvZ: 1.) Stargate openers become less do-or-die - just a staple harass option. Zergs will produce queens and a few hydralisks for defense and focus on spreading creep. Void Rays still won't do very much damage, and zerg can reproduce drones a hell of a lot faster than phoenixes can put a dent in them. The "I get fungalled, I lose my entire army" syndrome disappears. 2.) Late game PvZ is fixed. Broodlord infestor dies to mass air. If somebody drops a million ITs, you can just...run away. 3.) Mid-game PvZ is fixed, too. Current timing pushes, the most mainstream of which do not involve air, are completely unaffected - Zerg can hold them fine. Warp Prism harass becomes better - Zerg has to spend the same resources against Protoss and Terran drop harass that they do in the rest of the game. 4.) Mid-game PvZ becomes longer - with a required investment in anti-drop and anti-harass, more Zergs probably get either spires or hydras. TvZ: 1.) Defending drops is harder. More of a commitment to static defense required. 2.) Vikings, well-micro'd, become a super-viable way to deal with brood lords. T is still vulnerable to late-game tech switches, but a lot of the swinginess ("...one fungal started the chain which killed 300 medivacs") is removed. -Cross (...am I just wrong on this? What am I missing?) And how does Zerg beat the said mass air play? How does zerg deal with mass pheonix, once colossi and or HT hit the battlefield? How does Zerg beat endgame Air armies like mass Voidray/Carrier or Raven/BC? What would prevent mass muta vs mass muta until eternity in ZvZ? This would destroy anything we know about XvZ. The whole metagame would have to be reexplored... | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
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iknowFiRE
Slovenia37 Posts
ye i agree, instead of trying to be fancy with psionics immune, that would actualy be way better change. ofcourse in response, they could buff hydras vs air with additional range or damage or something similar. well even if its too drastic for it not affect air, it could still do damage but not root because thats the onyl annoying thing, it shuts down all harass | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:04 TheSwamp wrote: Good viking spread, Ghosts, Ravens, non-stop dropping, avoiding the army, starving them out, not letting them get to the composition... So to sum up, things that have been known for months with the only tiny little drawback to rely on your opponent failing. Nothing new here, sorry. On November 26 2012 05:27 TheRabidDeer wrote: If zerg doesnt use infestor/BL, what is the zergs answer to T in the late game? What does your question have to do with mine? On November 26 2012 06:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Ultralisks have been regarded as suicide ZvT for a long while and flat out dont work on many maps due to the layout. Which ones exactly? | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:28 Protosnake wrote: You're missing the fact that Hydra and Spire tech suck at holding air push and that Infestor is by far the main AA-Unit and in many situations the only viable anti-air, so making it unable to hit air would simply simply let Zerg with a structural weakness, they wouldnt be able to handle air As said many times and before, infestor issue is that Zerg is way too reliant on it, probably why Blizzard always said they'll avoid any direct nerf to it, and thus it need to be balanced with a spire/Hydralisk buffs So, what's an air push? I'm no world-beater, but I really haven't seen a single PvZ air timing attack except the +1 zealot w/ warp prism after phoenix...and the phoenixes aren't really the problem with that push. Augment this by giving Hydras like +1 or +2 bonus damage against light, making them more effective against almost every single unit used for harass (warped-in zealots, phoenixes, mutalisks in zvz, marines, banshees) -Cross | ||
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Channel Pressure
United States62 Posts
 As far as the immortal/sentry timing push goes, that push can be strong on any map, but it really shines on maps with narrow corridors where good positions are easier to create, and zerg can't surround as good. As far as ive seen, Zerg has a pretty good response to an immortal timing. I've seen at least equal if not more toss lose doing an immortal/sentry timing than win, mainly due to the zerg scouting it or zerg catching sentrys heading across the map. This new change will make it interesting, but in light of the frequency of which toss loses doing this push, imo it doesn't seem broken. And it does require alot of execution on toss's part (believe it or not forcefielding well is not easy), which is why originally I was upset with the FG change. Thats just how I see it though. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:32 TheDwf wrote: My question relates to yours because you want Infestor/BL nerfed (or I would imagine so considering you feel that T has no answer to infestor/BL), and so I posed my question of if you want it nerfed then other options need to be presentable since T winrates against zerg arent that bad right now.So to sum up, things that have been known for months with the only tiny little drawback to rely on your opponent failing. Nothing new here, sorry. What does your question have to do with mine? Which ones exactly? Abyssal, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed to start ya off. The only ones where they are kind of feasible is like... whirlwind... maybe... ultras really just dont work well against T. Zergs have tried to make them work in the GSL before, but it just generally doesnt. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:29 Big J wrote: And how does Zerg beat the said mass air play? How does zerg deal with mass pheonix, once colossi and or HT hit the battlefield? How does Zerg beat endgame Air armies like mass Voidray/Carrier or Raven/BC? What would prevent mass muta vs mass muta until eternity in ZvZ? This would destroy anything we know about XvZ. The whole metagame would have to be reexplored... So let me first establish that I'm super willing to be wrong on this! Let's discuss it. For cost, I believe Corruptors beat every air unit in the game (<--This is my answer to questions 1, 2 and 3). Further, instead of an instant win button, infested terrans become a "You can't pick a fight now, because you will lose" button. I'm pretty sure ITs + Corrupters will shred any equal supply and cost army. (I think, actually, that if we just look at army cost, corrupters alone pretty handily beat any air). For question 4, I think that a slight buff for Hydras against light units would help Zerg's anti-air, and anti-harass. Does this address your concerns? I think what we'd see is zergs using Infestors as a support unit for either hydra/roach or muta/ling. -Cross (Edit: I guess my issue with the current changes is that they make units which are already widely used (sentries, warp prisms) better, rather than making units which are NOT widely used (carriers, void rays) more effective/having a purpose) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:38 TheRabidDeer wrote: My question relates to yours because you want Infestor/BL nerfed (or I would imagine so considering you feel that T has no answer to infestor/BL), and so I posed my question of if you want it nerfed then other options need to be presentable since T winrates against zerg arent that bad right now. Abyssal, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed to start ya off. The only ones where they are kind of feasible is like... whirlwind... maybe... ultras really just dont work well against T. Zergs have tried to make them work in the GSL before, but it just generally doesnt. Sorry, Ultras are fine vs Terran. They just cannot be considered a stable endgame option like Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor. They shine in 15-16min timing attacks, on some open maps and as tech switch after a good trade with a different maxed army. Though Ultra/Bane/Infestor to the max (so basically without any zerglings) is still an extremly good option against bio/biomech Terrans in the endgame and mass Ultra/Infestor can combat Mech if the map allows for it. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:20 Crosswind wrote: It's sort of weird. The following fix, in isolation, would pretty much fix every single balance issue in SC2: Fungal Growth doesn't affect air units. Let's enumerate why this simple idea works. PvZ: 1.) Stargate openers become less do-or-die - just a staple harass option. Zergs will produce queens and a few hydralisks for defense and focus on spreading creep. Void Rays still won't do very much damage, and zerg can reproduce drones a hell of a lot faster than phoenixes can put a dent in them. The "I get fungalled, I lose my entire army" syndrome disappears. 2.) Late game PvZ is fixed. Broodlord infestor dies to mass air. If somebody drops a million ITs, you can just...run away. 3.) Mid-game PvZ is fixed, too. Current timing pushes, the most mainstream of which do not involve air, are completely unaffected - Zerg can hold them fine. Warp Prism harass becomes better - Zerg has to spend the same resources against Protoss and Terran drop harass that they do in the rest of the game. 4.) Mid-game PvZ becomes longer - with a required investment in anti-drop and anti-harass, more Zergs probably get either spires or hydras. TvZ: 1.) Defending drops is harder. More of a commitment to static defense required. 2.) Vikings, well-micro'd, become a super-viable way to deal with brood lords. T is still vulnerable to late-game tech switches, but a lot of the swinginess ("...one fungal started the chain which killed 300 medivacs") is removed. -Cross (...am I just wrong on this? What am I missing?) This would make Phoenixes way way too strong against Zerg. Phoenixes already have a ton of hit points. 120hp and 60 shields, a group of 4-5 already pick off queens handily and they can all burn their full energy picking up and killing drones under constant fire from a spore without ever losing a single phoenix. They already beat hydras handily and there is nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can catch them. Without fungal, there is no reason a pro level protoss would ever lose a single phoenix. They would be able to pull the Zerg back for much less relative investment by harassing drone lines, force a ton of spores and hydras or corruptors at times Zergs really don't want to make them and the investment in those AA defenses that aren't guaranteed to kill a single phoenix and that aren't useful with the main army like phoenixes are also means that the Protoss can keep up on bases where they are stronger already. It would be completely fucking broken. Phoenixes would need a massive hitpoint nerf and/or speed nerf to make it work. As the fast air unit in the game with a ton of hitpoints(That also tend to be forgiving, spore hits often count for nothing because they burned all their energy killing drones already and the shields regen) it SHOULD be susceptible to a snaring ability and it should discourage their numbers getting too large, especially as an air unit with a disabling ability. If anything Mutalisks need to be more like phoenixes, less investment to reach them, come out sooner, and powerful in small numbers but it should be very risky to make them in large numbers. From a ZvT perspective it forces Zergs to go Mutaling every game because without fungal drops are an absolute nightmare if you don't have mutas. Given this is a very figured out style, especially when the meta game forces you into it, it would also be terrible. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:38 TheRabidDeer wrote: My question relates to yours because you want Infestor/BL nerfed (or I would imagine so considering you feel that T has no answer to infestor/BL), and so I posed my question of if you want it nerfed then other options need to be presentable Why? Weakening something doesn't mean destroying it so it can't be used anymore. On November 26 2012 06:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Abyssal, Cloud Kingdom, Entombed to start ya off. The only ones where they are kind of feasible is like... whirlwind... maybe... ultras really just dont work well against T. Zergs have tried to make them work in the GSL before, but it just generally doesnt. No idea why you would say something like that. Ultralisks are perfectly fine on all maps, against both Marines/Tanks and mech. Just because some maps have more chokes than others doesn't mean you have to fight in said chokes. Things like charging offcreep from a single angle into fortified positions can hardly be used as an evidence that Ultralisks are no good in ZvT. | ||
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Protosnake
France295 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:33 Crosswind wrote: So, what's an air push? I'm no world-beater, but I really haven't seen a single PvZ air timing attack except the +1 zealot w/ warp prism after phoenix...and the phoenixes aren't really the problem with that push. Augment this by giving Hydras like +1 or +2 bonus damage against light, making them more effective against almost every single unit used for harass (warped-in zealots, phoenixes, mutalisks in zvz, marines, banshees) -Cross Anything involving several air units, void, phoenix, banshee and even muta are exemples, but anything flying is relevant to that change. Spire tech is too specialized (Corruptor for blowing up massive air stuff, Muta for harass, the end) Hydralisk sucks, only infestor left. Every race have a way to AOE air units, Seeker miss, storm fungals all hit air for a reason, because if you dont have any anti-air AOE you're gonna be left with a structural weakness. A +1 +2 to light is meaningless, we're talking about a massive buff here, something that would make Hydra the main anti-air unit I dont think forcing fungal on ground only is a good way to start | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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