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Italy12246 Posts
On November 25 2012 19:47 pmp10 wrote:
Did anyone post any impression from the test map?
The discussion seems to have drifted away from the idea of actually trying out the proposed changes.
It's impossible to find proper games on that map.
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Immortal/sentry all-in will be almost impossible to hold if fungal does not work on sentries. I like the raven buff though.
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On November 25 2012 17:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 18:59 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
[quote]
but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by. Test it (1:2 ratio): 1 Immortal beats 2 Hydras - barely 50 Immortals beat 100Hydras - very handily Hence, Immortals counter hydras per supply and cost. (sure, when we talk outnumbering and different income scenarios, hydras can beat Immortals, but roach/ling does that as well, even more handily. Hydra/ling does it best of those combos, but then upgraded Zealot/Immortal counters this again and as Hydras use up the same space as roaches and are slower, Forcefields can catch more hydras worth of money than roaches etc etc...) Sorry, but not everything blizzard has written in some Noob-Guide holds. Especially as they wrote that before the hydra nerfs and the immortal buff. On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:
And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched.
As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision. No, the argument was about a normal Immortal/Sentry push, that you put into a spot somewhere on the map, where you can control counterattacks (assuming such a map) and cannot be defeated (narrow spaces, walls etc) and then just warp in until you max. And then basically every Protoss max beats roach/ling. Not saying I agree with Idra, ITs are still really good, fungal on everything but the sentries is still good, but yes, it's an unnecessary buff to an already overly successful allin. Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Hydrabuilds are something completly different than roachbuilds. They require other gas timings, a faster lair timing, screw with your dronecounts. The whole point of going roach/ling is, to stay mineralheavy as long as possible to get the 10-20 drone advantage and the 3-4hatches and still be able to produce a somewhat costefficient army. If you try to get out hydras for any defensive timing, you cannot have the same economical setup.
Not that I think that this patch is necessarily doing it the right way, but I feel that forcing zerg out of the three hatch build some of the time is probably better for the game. Or even, let zerg go for three hatch, because they are doing it before the protoss really has done anything, but give the protoss builds that punish the quick 60 drones. The meta needs to shift away from auto-pilot zerg greed by a fair margin.
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On November 26 2012 01:23 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 17:45 Big J wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 18:59 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:
[quote]
Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up.
This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by. Test it (1:2 ratio): 1 Immortal beats 2 Hydras - barely 50 Immortals beat 100Hydras - very handily Hence, Immortals counter hydras per supply and cost. (sure, when we talk outnumbering and different income scenarios, hydras can beat Immortals, but roach/ling does that as well, even more handily. Hydra/ling does it best of those combos, but then upgraded Zealot/Immortal counters this again and as Hydras use up the same space as roaches and are slower, Forcefields can catch more hydras worth of money than roaches etc etc...) Sorry, but not everything blizzard has written in some Noob-Guide holds. Especially as they wrote that before the hydra nerfs and the immortal buff. On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:
And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched.
As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision. No, the argument was about a normal Immortal/Sentry push, that you put into a spot somewhere on the map, where you can control counterattacks (assuming such a map) and cannot be defeated (narrow spaces, walls etc) and then just warp in until you max. And then basically every Protoss max beats roach/ling. Not saying I agree with Idra, ITs are still really good, fungal on everything but the sentries is still good, but yes, it's an unnecessary buff to an already overly successful allin. Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Hydrabuilds are something completly different than roachbuilds. They require other gas timings, a faster lair timing, screw with your dronecounts. The whole point of going roach/ling is, to stay mineralheavy as long as possible to get the 10-20 drone advantage and the 3-4hatches and still be able to produce a somewhat costefficient army. If you try to get out hydras for any defensive timing, you cannot have the same economical setup. Not that I think that this patch is necessarily doing it the right way, but I feel that forcing zerg out of the three hatch build some of the time is probably better for the game. Or even, let zerg go for three hatch, because they are doing it before the protoss really has done anything, but give the protoss builds that punish the quick 60 drones. The meta needs to shift away from auto-pilot zerg greed by a fair margin.
3Hatch opening is a logical reaction to FFE, by going Forge+Nexus the protoss is gaining extra economy and safety at the cost of his ability to be aggressive, Since you cant break a FFE, Zerg are just taking note of this choice and making the only right answer to that : Macro.
Protoss already have builds that punish the 60 drones, they are called immortal/sentry all-in and have litteraly no counter found since 6 months, and yet people are so eager for blizzard to stop Z from going 3 hatch, what about stopping protoss from going FFE ?
The matchup is in a pretty shitty situation right now, they are very few choice left for both race on how to play that matchup, metagame is completely stale because of how the units interact between each other, the patch isnt even shaking the metagame a little, it will force Zerg into even more turtle and unbalance the matchup, nothing more
I dont think there's anything we can reasonably do about that matchup before Hots, because that would imply massive change to the game, such as fungal, forcefield and vortex
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On November 25 2012 13:15 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 04:03 IdrA wrote:
a 4 zerg group also means 2 are guaranteed to advance. and the "tournament that didnt have any terrans" still has a terran in the top 4, and he knocked out another terran. so basically; shut the fuck up. Idra, you're the guy who was QQing last year about how Zerg was absymally underpowered and how the Protoss death ball is impossible to stop. I watched your matches, you know. All that time, you were making hydras. You were going to quick lair and if you saw stargate your reaction was to throw down a hydralisk den rather than bring out more queens. You didn't tech to brood lords, you didn't mass infestors, and you didn't build more than a handful of spinecrawlers. Basically, you had no idea how to play, but were still QQing about how imba the game was. And now Zergs are dominating to the same extent that Terran ever was. And the ZvP deathball is at least as strong as the old PvZ deathball. And you tell them to shut the fuck up even though the roles are the perfect mirror image of what they were last year. Given this track record, how can you expect to be taken seriously on anything you have to say about balance?
Are you seriously comparing the Terran domination of almost 2 years to what is happening right now? I guess you weren't around for GomTvT. I t was such a joke, and now we've already seen Terrans in the GSL figure out how to deal with infestor/BL play. The fact that foreigners can't adjust has nothing to do with balance. It was the same thing with foreign Zergs and Protosses when Terran was near untouchable.
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On November 25 2012 18:14 ElBlanco wrote:
Go back and have a look at the numbers when terran were dominating. 20 players in code S out of 32 and something 6 of the top 8. This season where zerg are apparently just as dominant they had less players than terran in code S, 2 more in the round of 16 and equal numbers in the round of 8 and 4. They also are heavily outnumbered in code A. How is that the same level of dominance? And currently it's 8 out of 16 Zergs in the Ro16, and 2 Protosses.
Outside of Korea, it's even worse. Last season you had 10 Zergs in the to 20 in both NA and EU GM ladders.
The cold, hard truth that Zerg players don't want to hear is that Protoss players of the same level are way, way, waaaay better than them. Zerg is fundamentally an A-move race. You spam roaches and attack, and maybe flank a little if you're feeling creative. Protoss is about delicate micro and narrow timing windows, so it's only natural that its skill level will be much higher than Zerg's.
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On November 26 2012 02:43 TheSwamp wrote:
The fact that foreigners can't adjust has nothing to do with balance. It was the same thing with foreign Zergs and Protosses when Terran was near untouchable. Oh, it does have to do with balance. It has a lot to do with balance.
It's telling us that the only way a Terran can compete against Zerg A-move and F-key is by practicing in a Korean teamhouse for 12 hours a day.
User was warned for this post
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On November 26 2012 02:45 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 18:14 ElBlanco wrote:
Go back and have a look at the numbers when terran were dominating. 20 players in code S out of 32 and something 6 of the top 8. This season where zerg are apparently just as dominant they had less players than terran in code S, 2 more in the round of 16 and equal numbers in the round of 8 and 4. They also are heavily outnumbered in code A. How is that the same level of dominance? And currently it's 8 out of 16 Zergs in the Ro16, and 2 Protosses. Outside of Korea, it's even worse. Last season you had 10 Zergs in the to 20 in both NA and EU GM ladders. The cold, hard truth that Zerg players don't want to hear is that Protoss players of the same level are way, way, waaaay better than them. Zerg is fundamentally an A-move race. You spam roaches and attack, and maybe flank a little if you're feeling creative. Protoss is about delicate micro and narrow timing windows, so it's only natural that its skill level will be much higher than Zerg's.
Flanking is not about "feeling creative" , you have to multiflank well to have a chance of winning versus a protoss (as a zerg). I think toss and zerg have easy macro mechanic and when we talk about toss "micro", even a platinum player knows how to put good forcefield, which is the only "micro" you need against zerg beside a+clicking with your deathball.
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On November 26 2012 02:45 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 18:14 ElBlanco wrote:
Go back and have a look at the numbers when terran were dominating. 20 players in code S out of 32 and something 6 of the top 8. This season where zerg are apparently just as dominant they had less players than terran in code S, 2 more in the round of 16 and equal numbers in the round of 8 and 4. They also are heavily outnumbered in code A. How is that the same level of dominance? And currently it's 8 out of 16 Zergs in the Ro16, and 2 Protosses. Outside of Korea, it's even worse. Last season you had 10 Zergs in the to 20 in both NA and EU GM ladders. The cold, hard truth that Zerg players don't want to hear is that Protoss players of the same level are way, way, waaaay better than them. Zerg is fundamentally an A-move race. You spam roaches and attack, and maybe flank a little if you're feeling creative. Protoss is about delicate micro and narrow timing windows, so it's only natural that its skill level will be much higher than Zerg's.
Whenever someone start using these words "The cold, hard truth is.." I know i'm gonna have a good time, I wasnt disapointed.
The cold hard truth is that protoss player being better than everyone and protoss being the hardest race and about "Delicate micro and narrow timing windows (lol)" is all in your head
Ps : A single 8z in a ro16 means nothing, there was 7 protoss in the ro16 in S2 and a PvP final in S3
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The cold, hard truth is that truth is intangible, and thus generally neither cold nor hard. It has no physical characteristics at all, in fact.
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On November 26 2012 00:53 Savagewood wrote:
Immortal/sentry all-in will be almost impossible to hold if fungal does not work on sentries. I like the raven buff though.
why not give protoss a few months of being the hardest to beat ? :D terran and zerg got them.
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On November 26 2012 02:52 Jumonji wrote:
Flanking is not about "feeling creative" , you have to multiflank well to have a chance of winning versus a protoss (as a zerg). I think toss and zerg have easy macro mechanic and when we talk about toss "micro", even a platinum player know of to put good forcefield, which is the only "micro" you need against zerg beside a+clicking. So you don't need to blink, don't need to protect colossus? Don't need to micro phoenixes? Can leave sentries and immortals at the front and zealots at the back? Can A-move across the map like Zerg can? Don't have to split units against fungals and feedback infestors if you want to stand a chance in the late game? Don't have to worry about positioning relative to the most ridiculous overpowered base defense in the game, spinecrawlers? There's no such thing as protecting immortals in a warp prism?
And what about needing superhuman reflexes to reliably force field against A-move ling run-bys -- which even Rain is known to lose against?
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On November 26 2012 02:35 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 01:23 Resistentialism wrote:On November 25 2012 17:45 Big J wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 18:59 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:
[quote]
This so much ^^
This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by. Test it (1:2 ratio): 1 Immortal beats 2 Hydras - barely 50 Immortals beat 100Hydras - very handily Hence, Immortals counter hydras per supply and cost. (sure, when we talk outnumbering and different income scenarios, hydras can beat Immortals, but roach/ling does that as well, even more handily. Hydra/ling does it best of those combos, but then upgraded Zealot/Immortal counters this again and as Hydras use up the same space as roaches and are slower, Forcefields can catch more hydras worth of money than roaches etc etc...) Sorry, but not everything blizzard has written in some Noob-Guide holds. Especially as they wrote that before the hydra nerfs and the immortal buff. On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:
And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched.
As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision. No, the argument was about a normal Immortal/Sentry push, that you put into a spot somewhere on the map, where you can control counterattacks (assuming such a map) and cannot be defeated (narrow spaces, walls etc) and then just warp in until you max. And then basically every Protoss max beats roach/ling. Not saying I agree with Idra, ITs are still really good, fungal on everything but the sentries is still good, but yes, it's an unnecessary buff to an already overly successful allin. Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Hydrabuilds are something completly different than roachbuilds. They require other gas timings, a faster lair timing, screw with your dronecounts. The whole point of going roach/ling is, to stay mineralheavy as long as possible to get the 10-20 drone advantage and the 3-4hatches and still be able to produce a somewhat costefficient army. If you try to get out hydras for any defensive timing, you cannot have the same economical setup. Not that I think that this patch is necessarily doing it the right way, but I feel that forcing zerg out of the three hatch build some of the time is probably better for the game. Or even, let zerg go for three hatch, because they are doing it before the protoss really has done anything, but give the protoss builds that punish the quick 60 drones. The meta needs to shift away from auto-pilot zerg greed by a fair margin. 3Hatch opening is a logical reaction to FFE, by going Forge+Nexus the protoss is gaining extra economy and safety at the cost of his ability to be aggressive, Since you cant break a FFE, Zerg are just taking note of this choice and making the only right answer to that : Macro. Protoss already have builds that punish the 60 drones, they are called immortal/sentry all-in and have litteraly no counter found since 6 months, and yet people are so eager for blizzard to stop Z from going 3 hatch, what about stopping protoss from going FFE ? The matchup is in a pretty shitty situation right now, they are very few choice left for both race on how to play that matchup, metagame is completely stale because of how the units interact between each other, the patch isnt even shaking the metagame a little, it will force Zerg into even more turtle and unbalance the matchup, nothing more I dont think there's anything we can reasonably do about that matchup before Hots, because that would imply massive change to the game, such as fungal, forcefield and vortex
Watch almost any life game when he won the GSL. He used mostly 2 base plays in almost all matchups and he won like all hes games. Saying zerg has to go 3 bases is just wrong / way to early to say since no one is trying except a few top zergs who do it with great success.
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On November 26 2012 02:55 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 02:45 Rossie wrote:On November 25 2012 18:14 ElBlanco wrote:
Go back and have a look at the numbers when terran were dominating. 20 players in code S out of 32 and something 6 of the top 8. This season where zerg are apparently just as dominant they had less players than terran in code S, 2 more in the round of 16 and equal numbers in the round of 8 and 4. They also are heavily outnumbered in code A. How is that the same level of dominance? And currently it's 8 out of 16 Zergs in the Ro16, and 2 Protosses. Outside of Korea, it's even worse. Last season you had 10 Zergs in the to 20 in both NA and EU GM ladders. The cold, hard truth that Zerg players don't want to hear is that Protoss players of the same level are way, way, waaaay better than them. Zerg is fundamentally an A-move race. You spam roaches and attack, and maybe flank a little if you're feeling creative. Protoss is about delicate micro and narrow timing windows, so it's only natural that its skill level will be much higher than Zerg's. Whenever someone start using these words "The cold, hard truth is.." I know i'm gonna have a good time, I wasnt disapointed. The cold hard truth is that protoss player being better than everyone and protoss being the hardest race and about "Delicate micro and narrow timing windows (lol)" is all in your head Ps : A single 8z in a ro16 means nothing, there was 7 protoss in the ro16 in S2 and a PvP final in S3
I will put you in perspective:
8/9 zergs got into Ro16.
4/6 possible zergs into ro8.
People shouldn't speak about "how many zergs/terran" whatever, but how many of their advancement rate.
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On November 26 2012 03:04 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
The cold, hard truth is that truth is intangible, and thus generally neither cold nor hard. It has no physical characteristics at all, in fact.
Maybe your truth, but my truth is clearly more deserving and would be both cold and hard if yours wasn't so broken.
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On November 26 2012 02:45 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 18:14 ElBlanco wrote:
Go back and have a look at the numbers when terran were dominating. 20 players in code S out of 32 and something 6 of the top 8. This season where zerg are apparently just as dominant they had less players than terran in code S, 2 more in the round of 16 and equal numbers in the round of 8 and 4. They also are heavily outnumbered in code A. How is that the same level of dominance? And currently it's 8 out of 16 Zergs in the Ro16, and 2 Protosses. Outside of Korea, it's even worse. Last season you had 10 Zergs in the to 20 in both NA and EU GM ladders. The cold, hard truth that Zerg players don't want to hear is that Protoss players of the same level are way, way, waaaay better than them. Zerg is fundamentally an A-move race. You spam roaches and attack, and maybe flank a little if you're feeling creative. Protoss is about delicate micro and narrow timing windows, so it's only natural that its skill level will be much higher than Zerg's.
Being able to forcefield does not make you a better player. Some might even say, forcefielding is a very useful talent toi have...
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On November 26 2012 03:07 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 02:52 Jumonji wrote:
Flanking is not about "feeling creative" , you have to multiflank well to have a chance of winning versus a protoss (as a zerg). I think toss and zerg have easy macro mechanic and when we talk about toss "micro", even a platinum player know of to put good forcefield, which is the only "micro" you need against zerg beside a+clicking. So you don't need to blink, don't need to protect colossus? Don't need to micro phoenixes? Can leave sentries and immortals at the front and zealots at the back? Can A-move across the map like Zerg can? Don't have to split units against fungals and feedback infestors if you want to stand a chance in the late game? Don't have to worry about positioning relative to the most ridiculous overpowered base defense in the game, spinecrawlers? There's no such thing as protecting immortals in a warp prism? And what about needing superhuman reflexes to reliably force field against A-move ling run-bys -- which even Rain is known to lose against?
I think everyone can see how biased you are, acting like you have to do "all of this hard stuff" to win when Zerg "just a-move"
Truth is that if you do all this correctly, you wont lose a single match, also most of the thing you listed are not hard, Blink micro isnt hard, so is FFing, many thing in SC2 arent hard at all, doing them all at the same time is
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On November 26 2012 03:10 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 02:55 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 02:45 Rossie wrote:On November 25 2012 18:14 ElBlanco wrote:
Go back and have a look at the numbers when terran were dominating. 20 players in code S out of 32 and something 6 of the top 8. This season where zerg are apparently just as dominant they had less players than terran in code S, 2 more in the round of 16 and equal numbers in the round of 8 and 4. They also are heavily outnumbered in code A. How is that the same level of dominance? And currently it's 8 out of 16 Zergs in the Ro16, and 2 Protosses. Outside of Korea, it's even worse. Last season you had 10 Zergs in the to 20 in both NA and EU GM ladders. The cold, hard truth that Zerg players don't want to hear is that Protoss players of the same level are way, way, waaaay better than them. Zerg is fundamentally an A-move race. You spam roaches and attack, and maybe flank a little if you're feeling creative. Protoss is about delicate micro and narrow timing windows, so it's only natural that its skill level will be much higher than Zerg's. Whenever someone start using these words "The cold, hard truth is.." I know i'm gonna have a good time, I wasnt disapointed. The cold hard truth is that protoss player being better than everyone and protoss being the hardest race and about "Delicate micro and narrow timing windows (lol)" is all in your head Ps : A single 8z in a ro16 means nothing, there was 7 protoss in the ro16 in S2 and a PvP final in S3 I will put you in perspective: 8/9 zergs got into Ro16. 4/6 possible zergs into ro8. People shouldn't speak about "how many zergs/terran" whatever, but how many of their advancement rate.
Fun fact, then Z and T would have the same rate (50%). In fact, so would P. (And it's the same for the last GSL, IEM, DH and WCS). Balance at last!
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On November 26 2012 03:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Being able to forcefield does not make you a better player. Some might even say, forcefielding is a very useful talent toi have... Being able to A-move and learn a recipe by rote does not make you a better player. Some might even say it makes you a well-trained chimp with no creativity, strategic ability, or even impressive micro skill.
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On November 26 2012 03:16 Protosnake wrote:
I think everyone can see how biased you are, acting like you have to do "all of this hard stuff" to win when Zerg "just a-move"
Truth is that if you do all this correctly, you wont lose a single match, also most of the thing you listed are not hard, Blink micro isnt hard, so is FFing, many thing in SC2 arent hard at all, doing them all at the same time is FF IS hard. Most grandmasters can't even reliably do it well. I know this from streams.
Blinking individual stalkers in engagements is an APM sink, and blink generally adds tactical depth because of its utility in positioning.
Even if these things weren't hard, so what? What's your argument? Zerg should be allowed to A-move because you don't consider that "micro" stuff to be very hard?
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