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On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras.
So first off, you would only go hydras if the P is trying to hit you with a delayed immortal timing push, if they come at the standard time, the Z should use mass roach ling like they already do. And you wouldnt "switch" to a pure immortal composition, that would be the timing you were already going for..and hydras will counter immortals better than roaches, which helps the zergs survivability odds.
Secondly, like I said in the second part of that post, which you conveniently left out, hydras are far from your only option for dealing with this timing..mutas can be used to kill off the sentries as well as dealing economic damage while the P army is in the middle of the map, infestors can be used to root the immortals in the middle of the map to do damage and delay the push, giving the zerg even more time to build a suitable army, and hydralisks are an extra option for adding in a lot more dps on the push when it finally gets there.
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On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. So first off, you would only go hydras if the P is trying to hit you with a delayed immortal timing push, if they come at the standard time, the Z should use mass roach ling like they already do. And you wouldnt "switch" to a pure immortal composition, that would be the timing you were already going for..and hydras will counter immortals better than roaches, which helps the zergs survivability odds.
Once the roaches die, the hydras die too. They're useless without their meat shield, so anything that counters roaches also indirectly counters the hydras hiding behind them. And considering how expensive and weak hydralisks are, you're better off just staying on roach-ling, or teching up to infestors. Even with a weakened fungal growth, spamming infested terrans is going to help a lot more than making hydras.
On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. Secondly, like I said in the second part of that post, which you conveniently left out, hydras are far from your only option for dealing with this timing..mutas can be used to kill off the sentries as well as dealing economic damage while the P army is in the middle of the map, infestors can be used to root the immortals in the middle of the map to do damage and delay the push, giving the zerg even more time to build a suitable army, and hydralisks are an extra option for adding in a lot more dps on the push when it finally gets there.
I never said the timing push was impossible to hold. All I said was that hydras do not counter immortal-sentry pushes. I left out the rest of your post because I wasn't arguing with the rest of your post.
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On November 24 2012 18:56 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by. And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched. As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision. Going hydras means you delayed tech for infestor. If Toss knows this, they They don't have to attack and can easily transition into collosus and just steam-rolled through with a later 3-base timings. The only scenario ever in ZvP where hydras is used is when. Toss goes heavy double stargate. OR. Nydus-Hydra All-in. Beyond this,Hydras are useless. Please be so kind provide replays where Zergs used hydras to stop Immortal/Sentry all-in. I have seen games from WCS where Zerg pros went hydras to stop the Immortal/Sentry and they all failed.
Thats why a big point of all rts games is to deny scouting so they cant tailor build a counter to what youve done..
And seeing as we're all talking about hypothetical changes here and the possible effects of them, there are no replays..why would a zerg have used hydras when he can just use one spell from one "support" unit??
And if you know the toss is going to pull back and tech to collosi and push again, why not get out some corruptors and infestors while theyre doing that? What, only the toss can make a tech switch while the zerg just has to sit back and take it? Yeah that makes sense..
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On November 25 2012 04:37 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 04:24 Resistentialism wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. That's not really his point. Hydras can and do beat immortals in "real" situations because hydra tech switching is fast and immortal production is slow. You don't build immortal max pushes like you do with siege tanks in BW, where you defend, defend, defend, all the while slowly adding to your tank count. Immortals don't do well enough versus tier 3. The immortal pushes we're seeing are all about exploiting a mostly razor thin timing versus the pre-infestor 3hatch/60drone zerg meta. The thing is that hydras are just a little bit too bad, so you're setting yourself up for a loss against many other compositions. This conversation started with Survivor saying that you could beat a Protoss who went for a huge immortal/sentry push by going for hydras, which is just plain false. First because, as you said, nobody maxes on immortals, so investing into a huge swarm of hydras just to beat three or four immortals spread throughout the Protoss gateway army is ridiculous, and second because hydralisks aren't cost efficient against immortals anyways. With good force fields zealot/sentry/stalker beats hydralisk-based compositions, and since immortals are more efficient against hydras than stalkers are adding them in only makes it more one-sided.
I never said you should make a swarm of hydras, just enough to beat the immortals, while using any combo of roaches, lings, blings, infestors, and queens, and maybe mutas to deal with the rest of the army. There would be no reason to continue hydra production after dealing with the first push, as you could just tech from there. And youre looking at this in a vacuum, zerg are the best backstabbing race in the game, so if theyre going to delay the sentry/immortal push, dont sit idley by and let them get the composition they want. Keep trying to take out sentries and doing economic damage. Also in nearly every game, zerg is going to have a superior economy, and can therfore afford to trade a little more inefficiently than toss or terran in all situations.
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On November 25 2012 08:11 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. So first off, you would only go hydras if the P is trying to hit you with a delayed immortal timing push, if they come at the standard time, the Z should use mass roach ling like they already do. And you wouldnt "switch" to a pure immortal composition, that would be the timing you were already going for..and hydras will counter immortals better than roaches, which helps the zergs survivability odds. Once the roaches die, the hydras die too. They're useless without their meat shield, so anything that counters roaches also indirectly counters the hydras hiding behind them. And considering how expensive and weak hydralisks are, you're better off just staying on roach-ling, or teching up to infestors. Even with a weakened fungal growth, spamming infested terrans is going to help a lot more than making hydras. Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. Secondly, like I said in the second part of that post, which you conveniently left out, hydras are far from your only option for dealing with this timing..mutas can be used to kill off the sentries as well as dealing economic damage while the P army is in the middle of the map, infestors can be used to root the immortals in the middle of the map to do damage and delay the push, giving the zerg even more time to build a suitable army, and hydralisks are an extra option for adding in a lot more dps on the push when it finally gets there. I never said the timing push was impossible to hold. All I said was that hydras do not counter immortal-sentry pushes. I left out the rest of your post because I wasn't arguing with the rest of your post.
Dude youre talking in circles: hydras are indirectly countered by immortals because theyre meatshield is directly countered by immortals, so you should just mass their meatshield instead?? Good try..
You clearly havent calculated how long it takes an immortal to kill a roach and hydra individually, because even though the roach has more health and armor than a hydra, it still takes longer to kill a hydra than a roach by over a second.
And the reason I brought up the rest of my post was because i provided alternatives to using hydras..itll be up to the discretion of the individual player and situation as to how they want to handle the push..be it infestors, hydras, mutas, or any combination of them.
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On November 25 2012 08:35 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:11 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. So first off, you would only go hydras if the P is trying to hit you with a delayed immortal timing push, if they come at the standard time, the Z should use mass roach ling like they already do. And you wouldnt "switch" to a pure immortal composition, that would be the timing you were already going for..and hydras will counter immortals better than roaches, which helps the zergs survivability odds. Once the roaches die, the hydras die too. They're useless without their meat shield, so anything that counters roaches also indirectly counters the hydras hiding behind them. And considering how expensive and weak hydralisks are, you're better off just staying on roach-ling, or teching up to infestors. Even with a weakened fungal growth, spamming infested terrans is going to help a lot more than making hydras. On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. Secondly, like I said in the second part of that post, which you conveniently left out, hydras are far from your only option for dealing with this timing..mutas can be used to kill off the sentries as well as dealing economic damage while the P army is in the middle of the map, infestors can be used to root the immortals in the middle of the map to do damage and delay the push, giving the zerg even more time to build a suitable army, and hydralisks are an extra option for adding in a lot more dps on the push when it finally gets there. I never said the timing push was impossible to hold. All I said was that hydras do not counter immortal-sentry pushes. I left out the rest of your post because I wasn't arguing with the rest of your post. Dude youre talking in circles: hydras are indirectly countered by immortals because theyre meatshield is directly countered by immortals, so you should just mass their meatshield instead?? Good try.. You clearly havent calculated how long it takes an immortal to kill a roach and hydra individually, because even though the roach has more health and armor than a hydra, it still takes longer to kill a hydra than a roach by over a second. And the reason I brought up the rest of my post was because i provided alternatives to using hydras..itll be up to the discretion of the individual player and situation as to how they want to handle the push..be it infestors, hydras, mutas, or any combination of them.
So you're supposed to just use the 6 range hydras to target fire down the 6 range immortals who are attacking your 4 range roaches? With force fields around? There's no reason for the immortals to ever be in range of the hydras, if you manage to snipe them it's entirely because the Protoss player fucked up badly. And they won't help in the overall battle because they take away so much money from the rest of your army. Yes, you are better off massing the meatshield unit, because roaches are at least useful on their own. You're better off having 30 roaches than 20 roaches and 5 hydras, because after 20 of them have died, the 30 roaches are now 1/3 of their original strength, whereas once 20 roaches and 5 hydras lose 20 roaches the remaining 5 hydras are totally useless.
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It's obvious that you've never played Zerg or know anything about the race.
Hydras aren't used simply because they put you all in. Say you build 10-15 to counter the immortal/sentry attack. Now you have 1000-1500/500-750 along with 20-30 supply tied up in useless units. You can't effectively attack into the Protoss cost efficiently, you're now significantly behind on tech, and your army will melt the moment collosus come out.
The robo bay builds in half the time it takes for the spire, and you won't have anywhere near the amount of corruptors you'll need by the time the toss moves out with 3-4 collosi. Mutas are ineffective against sentry/stalker.
None of the tech switches or unit compositions you've suggested are even remotely plausible.
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On November 25 2012 08:49 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:35 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 08:11 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. So first off, you would only go hydras if the P is trying to hit you with a delayed immortal timing push, if they come at the standard time, the Z should use mass roach ling like they already do. And you wouldnt "switch" to a pure immortal composition, that would be the timing you were already going for..and hydras will counter immortals better than roaches, which helps the zergs survivability odds. Once the roaches die, the hydras die too. They're useless without their meat shield, so anything that counters roaches also indirectly counters the hydras hiding behind them. And considering how expensive and weak hydralisks are, you're better off just staying on roach-ling, or teching up to infestors. Even with a weakened fungal growth, spamming infested terrans is going to help a lot more than making hydras. On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. Secondly, like I said in the second part of that post, which you conveniently left out, hydras are far from your only option for dealing with this timing..mutas can be used to kill off the sentries as well as dealing economic damage while the P army is in the middle of the map, infestors can be used to root the immortals in the middle of the map to do damage and delay the push, giving the zerg even more time to build a suitable army, and hydralisks are an extra option for adding in a lot more dps on the push when it finally gets there. I never said the timing push was impossible to hold. All I said was that hydras do not counter immortal-sentry pushes. I left out the rest of your post because I wasn't arguing with the rest of your post. Dude youre talking in circles: hydras are indirectly countered by immortals because theyre meatshield is directly countered by immortals, so you should just mass their meatshield instead?? Good try.. You clearly havent calculated how long it takes an immortal to kill a roach and hydra individually, because even though the roach has more health and armor than a hydra, it still takes longer to kill a hydra than a roach by over a second. And the reason I brought up the rest of my post was because i provided alternatives to using hydras..itll be up to the discretion of the individual player and situation as to how they want to handle the push..be it infestors, hydras, mutas, or any combination of them. So you're supposed to just use the 6 range hydras to target fire down the 6 range immortals who are attacking your 4 range roaches? With force fields around? There's no reason for the immortals to ever be in range of the hydras, if you manage to snipe them it's entirely because the Protoss player fucked up badly. And they won't help in the overall battle because they take away so much money from the rest of your army. Yes, you are better off massing the meatshield unit, because roaches are at least useful on their own. You're better off having 30 roaches than 20 roaches and 5 hydras, because after 20 of them have died, the 30 roaches are now 1/3 of their original strength, whereas once 20 roaches and 5 hydras lose 20 roaches the remaining 5 hydras are totally useless.
So you can either preform a concave at the top of your ramp to prevent this from happening, or mix the hydras in amongst the roaches so they dont get locked out by the ff. And again, you dont have to go hydras if you dont think you can make it work (even though its more than possible), use mutas instead to take out the sentries, then flood in lings and roaches. My point is you absolutely do not need to be able to fungal sentries to counter a later push.
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On November 25 2012 08:55 ConGee wrote:
It's obvious that you've never played Zerg or know anything about the race.
Hydras aren't used simply because they put you all in. Say you build 10-15 to counter the immortal/sentry attack. Now you have 1000-1500/500-750 along with 20-30 supply tied up in useless units. You can't effectively attack into the Protoss cost efficiently, you're now significantly behind on tech, and your army will melt the moment collosus come out.
The robo bay builds in half the time it takes for the spire, and you won't have anywhere near the amount of corruptors you'll need by the time the toss moves out with 3-4 collosi. Mutas are ineffective against sentry/stalker.
None of the tech switches or unit compositions you've suggested are even remotely plausible.
And the immortal army that the hydra zerg beats doesnt set the toss back by as much or more? Mutas would be used to counter sentry/immortal, not stalker/sentry..
And it takes 365 game second to build the tech buildings and produce 4 collosi, and 400 game seconds to build a spire and 5 corruptors (assuming a worst case where the corruptors dont pop all at once, but start production when the last one ends), so even in the worst possible scenario for building corruptors, there would only be a relatively small window of 35 game seconds to attack before zerg starts getting out a secure number of them.
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I don't know what to say man, some protoss never ever tried to expend and get a 3rd and now they talk like if they knew about what the actual lategame is. That's pretty lame and hard to read, most of the whinners are noobs and very few are good players so I'm not sure if listening to your concerns about ZvP is something good for my mental health.
User was temp banned for this post.
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sentries must be fungalled so zerg can actually create an engagement for themselves in the mid->late game.
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On November 21 2012 11:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:
I wonder how Blizz will explain it lore wise.
How come Fungus doesn't grow on Psionic units?
Seriously! I really don't like this change. Its just wierd. Not only that it comes at too high of an expense. Sentrys I think will be too strong versus zerg, and not very interesting. I really think they should have made a change to infested terrans rather than gone this route. Well it is public test realm though so. . . :/ And I say this as a protoss player. This is a really bad balance change. Man. its wierd. Arent DT's psionic?
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United States7483 Posts
A lot of people are complaining that sentries will be too strong without fungal effecting them, but I've got a couple rebuttals for discussion.
Firstly, it's too binary: Yes, you can complain that FF isn't interesting (I think FF's actually are interesting, as one of the few micro-reducing spells in the game that actually can have micro responses in the form of dropships or burrow-movement, although frankly FF isn't interesting in other situations. It's a cool spell and has many applications, but suffers from a bit of binary issues itself) and that's valid, as it's your opinion, but I don't think there's anything interesting in "I got infestors out, now all sentries are instantly worthless". Sentries go from being powerful force-multiplier units to being a waste of gas and supply the moment infestors hit the field. The moment you engage, they are all going to die. That's harsh, and the worst part is that there is nothing protoss can do about it. Sentries have to be out at the start of the fight to be useful (warp prism micro on sentries to protect them isn't particularly useful given that you'd miss your window for good FF's, and warp prisms are a prime target for zerg anyway) in engagements, there's pretty much no way to protect them vs. infestors. One moment the unit goes from being scary to becoming an expensive paperweight a moment later. There's pretty much no other unit interaction like that in the game, where units you've made become almost useless the moment your opponent unlocks tech. It's not like zerg finishes a baneling nest and then terran bio becomes worthless, or terran invalidates zealots because he build a couple banshees.
Secondly, fungal isn't the only zerg response to forcefields and sentries. There was a long period of time where baneling drops specifically to kill sentries was standard. There are players in GSL (like Symbol) who have showcased roach drop builds on the army to defeat forcefields. Roach burrow has always been a valid tactic for weakening the power of forcefield. Zerg has options, yes they are harder then clicking 'f' and then clicking on the sentries a few times, but they are hardly invalid.
Thirdly, extending the usefulness lifespan of sentries will extend the mid-game in PvZ. This makes hive tech rushes less viable, which frankly is a good thing, since protoss can't really attack without going all-in due to the strength of zerg defense (either you commit everything to attack or you won't do any damage at all really). Most PvZ's are uninteresting because it's either a 2 base all-in from toss, an all-in right before broods pop, or zerg rushing to infestor/BL successfully and then pushing. Extending the mid-game will allow for more damage to be done on both sides and create different situations and positions going into the late-game. This gives players more time to use their skill to weaken the opponent and improve their position (remember when MKP was rolling protosses in GSL by mass attacking and expanding so that protoss couldn't expand or max out?). This alone might solve the problem of infestor/broodlord being unreasonably strong: it'll still be strong, but allowing for the mid-game to be extended might allow for a skilled protoss to put himself into a position to transition into a more adequate response.
EDIT: I also want to point out, that with HOTS coming soon, people complaining about Zerg being unable to force a fight or push a mid-game advantage is off, swarm hosts should allow for that, as will vipers (Vipers are vastly underestimated for sieging a position, blinding cloud is obsene).
(For the record, I'm in the camp of nerfing sentries/FF and buffing the other gateway units would be a good thing, but that seems unlikely, so this post is in that context)
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On November 25 2012 04:03 IdrA wrote:
a 4 zerg group also means 2 are guaranteed to advance. and the "tournament that didnt have any terrans" still has a terran in the top 4, and he knocked out another terran. so basically; shut the fuck up. Idra, you're the guy who was QQing last year about how Zerg was absymally underpowered and how the Protoss death ball is impossible to stop.
I watched your matches, you know. All that time, you were making hydras. You were going to quick lair and if you saw stargate your reaction was to throw down a hydralisk den rather than bring out more queens. You didn't tech to brood lords, you didn't mass infestors, and you didn't build more than a handful of spinecrawlers. Basically, you had no idea how to play, but were still QQing about how imba the game was.
And now Zergs are dominating to the same extent that Terran ever was. And the ZvP deathball is at least as strong as the old PvZ deathball. And you tell them to shut the fuck up even though the roles are the perfect mirror image of what they were last year.
Given this track record, how can you expect to be taken seriously on anything you have to say about balance?
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On November 25 2012 11:24 Whitewing wrote:
A lot of people are complaining that sentries will be too strong without fungal effecting them, but I've got a couple rebuttals for discussion.
Firstly, it's too binary: Yes, you can complain that FF isn't interesting (I think FF's actually are interesting, as one of the few micro-reducing spells in the game that actually can have micro responses in the form of dropships or burrow-movement, although frankly FF isn't interesting in other situations. It's a cool spell and has many applications, but suffers from a bit of binary issues itself) and that's valid, as it's your opinion, but I don't think there's anything interesting in "I got infestors out, now all sentries are instantly worthless". Sentries go from being powerful force-multiplier units to being a waste of gas and supply the moment infestors hit the field. The moment you engage, they are all going to die. That's harsh, and the worst part is that there is nothing protoss can do about it. Sentries have to be out at the start of the fight to be useful (warp prism micro on sentries to protect them isn't particularly useful given that you'd miss your window for good FF's, and warp prisms are a prime target for zerg anyway) in engagements, there's pretty much no way to protect them vs. infestors. One moment the unit goes from being scary to becoming an expensive paperweight a moment later. There's pretty much no other unit interaction like that in the game, where units you've made become almost useless the moment your opponent unlocks tech. It's not like zerg finishes a baneling nest and then terran bio becomes worthless, or terran invalidates zealots because he build a couple banshees.
Secondly, fungal isn't the only zerg response to forcefields and sentries. There was a long period of time where baneling drops specifically to kill sentries was standard. There are players in GSL (like Symbol) who have showcased roach drop builds on the army to defeat forcefields. Roach burrow has always been a valid tactic for weakening the power of forcefield. Zerg has options, yes they are harder then clicking 'f' and then clicking on the sentries a few times, but they are hardly invalid.
Thirdly, extending the usefulness lifespan of sentries will extend the mid-game in PvZ. This makes hive tech rushes less viable, which frankly is a good thing, since protoss can't really attack without going all-in due to the strength of zerg defense (either you commit everything to attack or you won't do any damage at all really). Most PvZ's are uninteresting because it's either a 2 base all-in from toss, an all-in right before broods pop, or zerg rushing to infestor/BL successfully and then pushing. Extending the mid-game will allow for more damage to be done on both sides and create different situations and positions going into the late-game. This gives players more time to use their skill to weaken the opponent and improve their position (remember when MKP was rolling protosses in GSL by mass attacking and expanding so that protoss couldn't expand or max out?). This alone might solve the problem of infestor/broodlord being unreasonably strong: it'll still be strong, but allowing for the mid-game to be extended might allow for a skilled protoss to put himself into a position to transition into a more adequate response.
EDIT: I also want to point out, that with HOTS coming soon, people complaining about Zerg being unable to force a fight or push a mid-game advantage is off, swarm hosts should allow for that, as will vipers (Vipers are vastly underestimated for sieging a position, blinding cloud is obsene).
(For the record, I'm in the camp of nerfing sentries/FF and buffing the other gateway units would be a good thing, but that seems unlikely, so this post is in that context)
You know, this is a very good point. I have actually swayed a bit in my opinion. Nice.
I also really like forcefields, sentrys are almost my favorite unit in the game. I think ff's are very interesting and, the survivability of sentrys in zerg might open up sentrys use for later in the game. These are all great points!
I wish they would lower the cost of hallucination but thats definitely off topic.
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On November 25 2012 13:15 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 04:03 IdrA wrote:
a 4 zerg group also means 2 are guaranteed to advance. and the "tournament that didnt have any terrans" still has a terran in the top 4, and he knocked out another terran. so basically; shut the fuck up. Idra, you're the guy who was QQing last year about how Zerg was absymally underpowered and how the Protoss death ball is impossible to stop. I watched your matches, you know. All that time, you were making hydras. You were going to quick lair and if you saw stargate your reaction was to throw down a hydralisk den rather than bring out more queens. You didn't tech to brood lords, you didn't mass infestors, and you didn't build more than a handful of spinecrawlers. Basically, you had no idea how to play, but were still QQing about how imba the game was. And now Zergs are dominating to the same extent that Terran ever was. And the ZvP deathball is at least as strong as the old PvZ deathball. And you tell them to shut the fuck up even though the roles are the perfect mirror image of what they were last year. Given this track record, how can you expect to be taken seriously on anything you have to say about balance?
you mean he was playing how most zergs were playing at the time? that's some amazing monday morning quarterbacking, buddy
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On November 25 2012 13:29 mambar wrote:
you mean he was playing how most zergs were playing at the time? that's some amazing monday morning quarterbacking, buddy The point is that he's a hypocrite for balance whining when Zerg was in exactly the same situation that Toss and Terran is at the moment. Only gimmicky strategies, analogous to baneling drop, are keeping their win rates even.
And of course the truth is that many Zergs were way ahead of Idra in the metagame.
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On November 25 2012 09:02 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:49 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 08:35 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 08:11 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. So first off, you would only go hydras if the P is trying to hit you with a delayed immortal timing push, if they come at the standard time, the Z should use mass roach ling like they already do. And you wouldnt "switch" to a pure immortal composition, that would be the timing you were already going for..and hydras will counter immortals better than roaches, which helps the zergs survivability odds. Once the roaches die, the hydras die too. They're useless without their meat shield, so anything that counters roaches also indirectly counters the hydras hiding behind them. And considering how expensive and weak hydralisks are, you're better off just staying on roach-ling, or teching up to infestors. Even with a weakened fungal growth, spamming infested terrans is going to help a lot more than making hydras. On November 25 2012 08:03 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. Secondly, like I said in the second part of that post, which you conveniently left out, hydras are far from your only option for dealing with this timing..mutas can be used to kill off the sentries as well as dealing economic damage while the P army is in the middle of the map, infestors can be used to root the immortals in the middle of the map to do damage and delay the push, giving the zerg even more time to build a suitable army, and hydralisks are an extra option for adding in a lot more dps on the push when it finally gets there. I never said the timing push was impossible to hold. All I said was that hydras do not counter immortal-sentry pushes. I left out the rest of your post because I wasn't arguing with the rest of your post. Dude youre talking in circles: hydras are indirectly countered by immortals because theyre meatshield is directly countered by immortals, so you should just mass their meatshield instead?? Good try.. You clearly havent calculated how long it takes an immortal to kill a roach and hydra individually, because even though the roach has more health and armor than a hydra, it still takes longer to kill a hydra than a roach by over a second. And the reason I brought up the rest of my post was because i provided alternatives to using hydras..itll be up to the discretion of the individual player and situation as to how they want to handle the push..be it infestors, hydras, mutas, or any combination of them. So you're supposed to just use the 6 range hydras to target fire down the 6 range immortals who are attacking your 4 range roaches? With force fields around? There's no reason for the immortals to ever be in range of the hydras, if you manage to snipe them it's entirely because the Protoss player fucked up badly. And they won't help in the overall battle because they take away so much money from the rest of your army. Yes, you are better off massing the meatshield unit, because roaches are at least useful on their own. You're better off having 30 roaches than 20 roaches and 5 hydras, because after 20 of them have died, the 30 roaches are now 1/3 of their original strength, whereas once 20 roaches and 5 hydras lose 20 roaches the remaining 5 hydras are totally useless. So you can either preform a concave at the top of your ramp to prevent this from happening, or mix the hydras in amongst the roaches so they dont get locked out by the ff. And again, you dont have to go hydras if you dont think you can make it work (even though its more than possible), use mutas instead to take out the sentries, then flood in lings and roaches. My point is you absolutely do not need to be able to fungal sentries to counter a later push.
Ok, well, we agree on the main point then, and this argument isn't really going anywhere, so I shall be bowing out with whatever dignity I have left.
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On November 25 2012 13:40 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 13:29 mambar wrote:
you mean he was playing how most zergs were playing at the time? that's some amazing monday morning quarterbacking, buddy The point is that he's a hypocrite for balance whining when Zerg was in exactly the same situation that Toss and Terran is at the moment. Only gimmicky strategies, analogous to baneling drop, are keeping their win rates even. And of course the truth is that many Zergs were way ahead of Idra in the metagame.
You have two posts in this thread, and two in another thread calling something "the dumbest idea you've ever heard in your life." You'll forgive me if I'm somewhat skeptical of your posting.
Because the truth is every pro player balance whines. There really aren't any exceptions. Mvp does it. MC did it. DeMuslim has done it - and has had some very insightful comments on why. DRG and Nestea and basically everyone of note complains about their race, whether its justified or not.
It's also important to realize that it's not 2010 or 2011 anymore. Void Rays aren't a part of the metagame at all anymore. Neural Parasite is no longer an essential aspect of the Infestor. Ghosts no longer shred Brood Lords. Overlords can now get across a map in less than five minutes. Maps are bigger, with longer rush distances. The things people do change over time. It's not because Idra doesn't know how to play that he wasn't going Hive rushes in all of his ZvPs in 2010. No one was, because it probably wouldn't have worked against the array of 2- and 3-base all-ins Protoss had. Gateway attacks, Stargate attacks and Robo attacks all worked really, really well, and Roach/Hydra/Corruptor for a long time was seen as the best way to hold an attack that you couldn't necessarily scout. Claiming that not playing ZvT and ZvP in the late-2012 style back in 2010 and 2011 is evidence of failing as a player is silly and unproductive.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
Going back to the hydra point, as a counter to the immortal allin, surely they add some utility by having gateway shredding potential, but also the ability to snipe the prisms that execute the micro that often makes the difference between the Immortal push working or failing at the top, top level. Bar being generally considered terrible, another big issue with Hydras is not necessarily their straight-up fighting prowess in defensive positions, but their lack of mobility to make any kind of moveout off creep without getting crushed against that push. I would like to see some top, top players try it out, but it seems a bit too much of a blind-counter to be reliable.
I'm really not sure what Zergs can do to reliably beat it other than 'playing better' though, with any kind of balance change potentially having a big knock-on effect. I mean the reason the Immortal/Sentry push is so good in the first place is largely due to the Immortal range buff that was made to nerf another similar death push, the 1/1/1.
I do think the potential lategame PvZ changes are more important anyway for the matchup's dynamic on the whole, and hopefully the playerbase can come up with better ways to deal with the Protoss timing pushes that are so prevalent at the minute. I don't agree with all the changes, but some of the immunity to fungal is welcomed as I have long felt the infestor wasn't just extremely powerful, but had far too much utility.
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EPT
