EPTI anticipate that Zergs are going to use this finals and the absence of Zerg as absolute proof that no change should be made. They are wrong.
Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 79
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
I anticipate that Zergs are going to use this finals and the absence of Zerg as absolute proof that no change should be made. They are wrong. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:24 Shiori wrote: Parting has recently been lauded as one of the best PvZers just because of how good his Immortal/Sentry is. And yeah, Curious is a strong Zerg. Top 5 in the world, probably. The trouble is that at WCS he actually played really badly. Not just slumping. He played bad. I hope he recovers because he's fun to watch, but he really didn't play like a top Code S level player. That sort of play wouldn't get you into Code A, let alone out of it. It's worth pointing out that Curious got 3-0d by Sen, who is a Zerg, so I'm not sure what his performance has to do with establishing balance to start with. Again, not saying he's not a strong player, but he definitely played extremely poorly at WCS. just because you figured out a very strong all-in doesn't mean your the best PvZer. MC was once the best PvPer because he could outshine others with his superior micro. And look at where his PvP is now. The moment Zerg figure out the best way to deal with this all-in, Protoss will see a major decrease in winrates. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:34 monkybone wrote: Remember that Taeja is gaining a lot of fame playing in the foreigner scene. He's not yet a GSL regular and don't play all that much with the very best of the world. So it's hard to judge right now. We have also seen little from Roro. Remember though, he defeated DRG handily in a ZvZ series in the GSL. I think we should keep that in mind to understand what a feat it was by idra to defeat him 2-0. Idra also obviously has a way better judgement of skill than anyone here in this thread. That's the thing: we've seen very little of RorO. I won't discount that Curious is awesome, but if we just look at how RorO/Curious played at WCS, they didn't look like top players. On the flipside, most of the Protoss players that did well were basically the players who played up to their usual standard. I think the Curious who made it far into the GSL would have made at least Ro4, to be honest, but unfortunately he didn't show up. Idra is of course a better judge of skill than me, but I wasn't impressed with the overall performance of Curious at the tournament. Idra actually played rather well though, I must say. But Rain is just super good at his 3 base timings unfortunately for the foreign scene. just because you figured out a very strong all-in doesn't mean your the best PvZer. MC was once the best PvPer because he could outshine others with his superior micro. And look at where his PvP is now. The moment Zerg figure out the best way to deal with this all-in, Protoss will see a major decrease in winrates. I agree. We went from Protoss domination in the summer to scarcity in the GSL because Immortal/Sentry is beginning to get solved at Code S level. | ||
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Twilight Sparkle
Australia235 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:24 Resistentialism wrote: That's not really his point. Hydras can and do beat immortals in "real" situations because hydra tech switching is fast and immortal production is slow. You don't build immortal max pushes like you do with siege tanks in BW, where you defend, defend, defend, all the while slowly adding to your tank count. Immortals don't do well enough versus tier 3. The immortal pushes we're seeing are all about exploiting a mostly razor thin timing versus the pre-infestor 3hatch/60drone zerg meta. The thing is that hydras are just a little bit too bad, so you're setting yourself up for a loss against many other compositions. This conversation started with Survivor saying that you could beat a Protoss who went for a huge immortal/sentry push by going for hydras, which is just plain false. First because, as you said, nobody maxes on immortals, so investing into a huge swarm of hydras just to beat three or four immortals spread throughout the Protoss gateway army is ridiculous, and second because hydralisks aren't cost efficient against immortals anyways. With good force fields zealot/sentry/stalker beats hydralisk-based compositions, and since immortals are more efficient against hydras than stalkers are adding them in only makes it more one-sided. | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
People need to chillax and start being smart, just like any other players would do and soon the 14-15 infestor style will just look pretty silly and damn bad. That's because meta game change all the time, what is bad, it's because of retarded noobs and blizzzard low level of thinking, they come out with a complete OP fix . Solutions : Fungal : Make it slow instead , Make it as a projectile ( so it can be dodged ) . There's alot of zergs shinning but there's alot of zergs struggling and because KR zergs shine for now doesn't mean Z is a problem. Best foreigner race ? Protoss, does it mean there's something wrong with them ? No. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:41 Bellazuk wrote: Solutions : Fungal : Make it slow instead , Make it as a projectile ( so it can be dodged ) . I would be fine with this. Don't know why you think I'm being a whiner. I've been pretty reasonable, I think. Also, it's Shiori. | ||
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AbideWithMe
207 Posts
We are talking about six Protoss units invincible to fungle. You have to realize that this is not only nerfng the rooting capabilites but also the whole dps of a zerg army significantly. There is no real reason for archons to be unrootable. If anything the mothership as an iconic unique unit should be invulnerable to fungal and probably neural parasite. This would force the zerg to constantly position his army and not get by on cheap moves like neuraling and wasting the vortex or possibly even turn it against the Protoss. And there should be on and one on other unit invulnerable to fungal. HTs to ensure a direct counter to infestors. This would lead to a similar situation as in TvZ with the invulnerable ghost. You would have pretty dynamic late game fights with each race having a DIRECT counter to infestors with High Temps and Ghosts. Anything else goes WAY overboard and tips the volatile balance of PvZ. Sentries, DTs and Archons invulerable to Fungal would lead to OP timing pushes from Protoss and there is really no need to have even stronger Timings from Toss as there are already able to win that many games that the match-up seems balanced by statistical figures. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:37 Twilight Sparkle wrote: This conversation started with Survivor saying that you could beat a Protoss who went for a huge immortal/sentry push by going for hydras, which is just plain false. First because, as you said, nobody maxes on immortals, so investing into a huge swarm of hydras just to beat three or four immortals spread throughout the Protoss gateway army is ridiculous, and second because hydralisks aren't cost efficient against immortals anyways. With good force fields zealot/sentry/stalker beats hydralisk-based compositions, and since immortals are more efficient against hydras than stalkers are adding them in only makes it more one-sided. This is just a gut feeling, but I have to think that any immortal/gateway all in is going to be just a little bit worse than a similar pure gateway or gateway/blink version versus heavy hydra defenses. Immortal production is just that little touch clunkier. That said, most of the normal protoss compositions can win versus hydras anyways, depending on the players. | ||
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tMomiji
United States1115 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:47 AbideWithMe wrote: And there should be on and one on other unit invulnerable to fungal. HTs to ensure a direct counter to infestors. This would lead to a similar situation as in TvZ with the invulnerable ghost. You would have pretty dynamic late game fights with each race having a DIRECT counter to infestors with High Temps and Ghosts. Stop looking at units in the vacuum, there's still no way Ghosts and HTs on foot can reach Infestors beneath Broodlords. As long as Fungal Growth blocks nearly everything, you can keep dreaming about “dynamic late game fights”. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:47 AbideWithMe wrote: Hm. You guys are basically defeating your own arguments by acknowledging how volatile performances of individual players are and how little they have to do with the balance of match-ups. You are basically talking about punctual observations and try to use them as statistical evidence for HUGE balance changes which objectively don't seem to be necessary in this excess. We are talking about six Protoss units invincible to fungle. You have to realize that this is not only nerfng the rooting capabilites but also the whole dps of a zerg army significantly. There is no real reason for archons to be unrootable. If anything the mothership as an iconic unique unit should be invulnerable to fungal and probably neural parasite. This would force the zerg to constantly position his army and not get by on cheap moves like neuraling and wasting the vortex or possibly even turn it against the Protoss. And there should be on and one on other unit invulnerable to fungal. HTs to ensure a direct counter to infestors. This would lead to a similar situation as in TvZ with the invulnerable ghost. You would have pretty dynamic late game fights with each race having a DIRECT counter to infestors with High Temps and Ghosts. Anything else goes WAY overboard and tips the volatile balance of PvZ. Sentries, DTs and Archons invulerable to Fungal would lead to OP timing pushes from Protoss and there is really no need to have even stronger Timings from Toss as there are already able to win that many games that the match-up seems balanced by statistical figures. I agree with you. Fungal not being able to target Archons, Sentries, DTs and HTs does mean it's a significant nerf to fungal dps. Like fungaling into a random endgame Protoss composition, you can be pretty sure to hit an archon or two. And that is actually the part about this fungal nerf that makes the most sense to me. Mass Archon isn't too terrible as a lategame PvZ core component, their problem is usually fighting their way through fungals and Broodlings to get into range of the Broodlords. The patch takes out a part of the problem. Similar for HTs and storms/feedback and in some way for Prism+HT in a direct combat. I think the two biggest questions about this patch are: 1) is this enough for the straight up combat? (most likely not, but might need more testing) 2) does this create other problems? (not sure about this. Unfungalable Sentries gives Protoss Sentry-heavy armies at least 3more minutes, which could lead to a lot of new/strong timings. Unfungalable Warp Prisms and DTs might require completly new approaches to base defense) But I can only reiterate: The Prism stuff is great for the FUN and the WATCHABILITY of the matchup and should stay. The Archon/HT stuff is good for the direct combat power of the Protoss late/endgame. This is what they should do imo: -) Keep it like that but: -) make fungal reveal all units(so psionic as well) in its radius -) remove the psionic tag from sentries | ||
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:34 monkybone wrote: Remember that Taeja is gaining a lot of fame playing in the foreigner scene. He's not yet a GSL regular and don't play all that much with the very best of the world. So it's hard to judge right now. We have also seen little from Roro. Remember though, he defeated DRG handily in a ZvZ series in the GSL. I think we should keep that in mind to understand what a feat it was by idra to defeat him 2-0. Idra also obviously has a way better judgement of skill than anyone here in this thread. What? Taeja is top 10 in GSL rankings with 2 ro8 and 1 ro4. If he isn't a GSL regular, then I don't know who is. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:14 TheSwamp wrote: Now they just have to give zerg better detection. Why would they? Spores and Overseers not enough? | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:42 Shiori wrote: I would be fine with this. Don't know why you think I'm being a whiner. I've been pretty reasonable, I think. Also, it's Shiori. Your arguments look very reasonable to me, but there are people who are winning purely off the back of the infestor right now who aren't going to like a change. Idra's not exactly known for being reasonable so don't get hung up on trying to change him. Slow and projectile would be optimal, that would make it both a bit harder to use and much more interesting to watch. But I think blizzard have randomly latched onto the idea that slowing things belongs to protoss (even though thats obviously going to get cut from HoTS)  Its too much power in one unit and it scales far too dramatically.. Something else more midgame needs to be stronger to take up the slack, theres only really the hydra in that time slot, but its already good vs those immortals. I can't see it being that problematic to give it a bit of a tweak, ideally I'd like to see them revert to their cheaper, more numerous BW like selves, zerg should swarm.. I think weaker IT eggs are still needed for ZvP, right now what is effectively a free 100 supplys worth of marines can materialise on top of a protoss base and army and there's nothing they can really do about it, energy will trade for resources in a situation where the zerg economy should already be stronger. Softer eggs at least allow focus firing and storms to negate such silliness without removing them as an option for harrassment or soaking up tank shots and still allows their use to kill bases when the enemy army is out of position. On November 25 2012 05:14 TheSwamp wrote: Now they just have to give zerg better detection. Huh? Theres loads of cheap detection availible, overlords are everywhere, doesn't cost much to turn them into detectors, at negative supply too, beats the hell out of the other races options for cost and time (sure scans more versatile but temporary and very expensive). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:21 mostevil wrote: I think weaker IT eggs are still needed for ZvP, right now what is effectively a free 100 supplys worth of marines can materialise on top of a protoss base and army and there's nothing they can really do about it Weaker IT eggs are needed in ZvT too (problems for mech and air). | ||
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Richard Nixon
11 Posts
Currently it takes too much time until it can be useful, and even when it reaches that point in time, it is easily shut down. Either one of these limitations is fine by themselves, but having both on the same unit makes it inconsistent and, frankly, a gamble to even attempt. The HSM buff Blizzard proposed really does nothing but gives 150/150 to a late game economy for free... which isn't useful at all. Problem is, seeker missile has front-loaded damage that can be condensed heavily and infinitely, unlike the DoT of fungal and storm, or the hard cap of shield damage on emp. With these things in mind, I've come up with an idea. Ravens require 89 seconds (143 if they don't have Corvid Reactor) to actually make a difference in a late game scenario. In that same time, and for fewer resources, a Terran can produce marines and medivacs, which are far more reliable in just about every use. The simple answer is to reduce the cost of HSM to 75 energy. Make all the expensive tech costs worthwhile, and allow the Raven to have the chance to make a difference immediately upon popping. This will also allow the Raven to charge up another seeker about 100 seconds faster. With this change, the Raven will be far less of a "do or die" unit, and be overall more consistent in its usage. The second change is to space out the damage by seeker. The current problem with it is that the damage is stackable, allowing multiple seekers to instantly annihilate entire armies. My solution to this is to allow seeker missiles to have friendly damage on each other. That means that one seeker missile can prevent other seeker missiles from detonating, which destroys the potential of killing everything in the time frame of a second. In order to be used to maximum effect, they would have to be casted in a series of "pulses"- this creates another micro opportunity for the Terran, as well as the opponent- either micro your counter to Ravens (start feedbacking/fungaling the high priority unit) or retreat. Seeker will still be unique from the other races in that each "pulse" will be front-loaded, but it prevents the stacking issue that Blizzard is so weary of. The exact numbers can be tweaked, obviously, but this seems like a reasonable change as is. Spacing out the explosions and effects creates new micro opportunities, and will be easier to watch from a spectator's perspective. Not only that, but it allows Blizzard to tweak HSM (along with the Raven's other abilities) now that it doesn't have the potential to be stacked. tl;dr: -reduce seeker energy to 75 -allow seeker missile's to destroy one another (without them detonating) -the second change allows for easier tweaking of the unit since seeker can't be stacked. Thoughts? | ||
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FS_SlimJim
29 Posts
Also, the raven would have to be kept non-psionic. Having a raven be able to cast HSM while fungaled is fine, but complete immunity? That's too far due to the corruptor pathing mechanic of auto-stacking. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:32 FS_SlimJim wrote: I have discussed this extensively and I believe that both would be good changes, BUT the psionic tag on the warp prism needs to be removed. Fungaling a warp prism is CRUCIAL to zerg actually being able to ever kill it. Yet Terrans not being able to kill a Warp Prism with speed upgrade is not a problem? On November 25 2012 05:32 FS_SlimJim wrote: Also, the raven would have to be kept non-psionic. Having a raven be able to cast HSM while fungaled is fine, but complete immunity? That's too far due to the corruptor pathing mechanic of auto-stacking. Yet Fungals being absolutely devastating against Vikings due to their auto-stacking is somehow OK? | ||
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