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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
top4 wcs was 3p 1z top4 gsl 2z 2t top4 iem 2z 1t 1p top4 dh 2p 1z 1t overall: 6z 6p 4t also dont get why they would make such changes to pvz anyways seeing how the summer has been a graveyard for zergs in korea in the matchup would much rather see more changes to terran, raven is a start but changes in pvt would be appreciated as well | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 03:06 Tsubbi wrote: seeing as how blizzard pay a lot of attention to recent big tournament results i really cant see these changes go through top4 wcs was 3p 1z top4 gsl 2z 2t top4 iem 2z 1t 1p top4 dh 2p 1z 1t overall: 6z 6p 4t also dont get why they would make such changes to pvz anyways seeing how the summer has been a graveyard for zergs in korea in the matchup would much rather see more changes to terran, raven is a start but changes in pvt would be appreciated as well WCS: No good Zergs were present. Rain beating Idra is as significant as MC taking out Incontrol. GSL: Of 9 Zergs at the event, 8 made it to the next round. Of 9 Protoss, 2 made it through. A 4 Zerg group meant that Zergs were necessarily eliminated in ZvZ. Half the Ro8 was Zerg. One of the Zergs eliminated was eliminated in ZvZ. IEM: We're talking about a tournament that didn't even have any Terrans qualify as an example of balance? LOL. DH: Two top tier Koreans (Taeja + Hero) stomping foreigners isn't an indication of anything. | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On November 25 2012 00:46 Shiori wrote: Yes for Sentries, no for Warp Prisms. Harassment being super strong lategame is a good thing. BL/Infestor will have no weaknesses, otherwise. But yes, Sentries should have psionic removed. well infestors not fungaling MS/archon would already be a thing to fix that. Also try to think of a way to stop speed warp prism immune to fungals..... does Z have to build a flock of mutas only for 1 unit ? come on. Not to mention that warp prism is already pretty strong (and that's a very good thing and hurts zerg deathball quite a bunch without spines everywhere and a little fast army ). | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On November 24 2012 18:59 Big J wrote: Test it (1:2 ratio): 1 Immortal beats 2 Hydras - barely 50 Immortals beat 100Hydras - very handily Hence, Immortals counter hydras per supply and cost. (sure, when we talk outnumbering and different income scenarios, hydras can beat Immortals, but roach/ling does that as well, even more handily. Hydra/ling does it best of those combos, but then upgraded Zealot/Immortal counters this again and as Hydras use up the same space as roaches and are slower, Forcefields can catch more hydras worth of money than roaches etc etc...) Sorry, but not everything blizzard has written in some Noob-Guide holds. Especially as they wrote that before the hydra nerfs and the immortal buff. No, the argument was about a normal Immortal/Sentry push, that you put into a spot somewhere on the map, where you can control counterattacks (assuming such a map) and cannot be defeated (narrow spaces, walls etc) and then just warp in until you max. And then basically every Protoss max beats roach/ling. Not saying I agree with Idra, ITs are still really good, fungal on everything but the sentries is still good, but yes, it's an unnecessary buff to an already overly successful allin. Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). And this is what i was responding too.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. So I was responding to a delayed toss push where the zerg has already had time to tech, because before that it would be a "normal" timing, and no different from now. If you give protoss the time to max, you should have gotten off "just" roach ling a long time ago. You can build infestors to root the immortals before they push out, you can build hydras to counter the immortals (better than roaches) when they get to your base, or/and you can build mutas to go in and pick off sentries while theyre sitting there doing nothing, as the push generally has little to no anti-air by design. There are so many things a zerg can do to counter this push still as long as they properly scout it, they have just grown to lazy and complacent on using one unit and one spell to do it that they havent had to practice/come up with and other ideas. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 03:28 Karpfen wrote: well infestors not fungaling MS/archon would already be a thing to fix that. Also try to think of a way to stop speed warp prism immune to fungals..... does Z have to build a flock of mutas only for 1 unit ? come on. Not to mention that warp prism is already pretty strong (and that's a very good thing and hurts zerg deathball quite a bunch without spines everywhere and a little fast army ). Jaedong built 1 Muta for the sole purpose of hunting Observers. You can build 3 to handle WPs in the late game. No need for a "flock." Just a few. If the Protoss is devoting tonnes of supply to his WP harass, I can't imagine that you can't throw away ~10 supply to defend. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On November 25 2012 03:11 Shiori wrote: WCS: No good Zergs were present. Rain beating Idra is as significant as MC taking out Incontrol. GSL: Of 9 Zergs at the event, 8 made it to the next round. Of 9 Protoss, 2 made it through. A 4 Zerg group meant that Zergs were necessarily eliminated in ZvZ. Half the Ro8 was Zerg. One of the Zergs eliminated was eliminated in ZvZ. IEM: We're talking about a tournament that didn't even have any Terrans qualify as an example of balance? LOL. DH: Two top tier Koreans (Taeja + Hero) stomping foreigners isn't an indication of anything. you cant downplay roro and curious and in the same breath call taeja and hero top tier. theyre all really good, hero and taeja arent exactly ripping up gsl right now. they just look better because theyre on liquid and you're dumb. a 4 zerg group also means 2 are guaranteed to advance. and the "tournament that didnt have any terrans" still has a terran in the top 4, and he knocked out another terran. so basically; shut the fuck up. | ||
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Twilight Sparkle
Australia235 Posts
On November 25 2012 03:37 Survivor61316 wrote: Youre going to have a better than two to on ratio of hydras (plus roaches and lings at least) against immortals because toss simply cant produce immortals that fast. And one immortal kills one hydra around a second later that it kills one roach, so youre wrong. And I'd love to know how ff can catch the at least +1 range hydras over roaches (they can get a more spread out concave with less in a given area). Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:03 IdrA wrote: you cant downplay roro and curious and in the same breath call taeja and hero top tier. theyre all really good, hero and taeja arent exactly ripping up gsl right now. they just look better because theyre on liquid and you're dumb. a 4 zerg group also means 2 are guaranteed to advance. and the "tournament that didnt have any terrans" still has a terran in the top 4, and he knocked out another terran. so basically; shut the fuck up. Is relativity lost on you? Curious/RorO weren't good relative to Creator/Rain/Parting/etc/etc. You need someone like Leenock or Hyun to parallel someone like Parting or Creator. RorO is pretty new still and hasn't exactly been styling at any point. Curious actually looked terrible all tournament. I'm not saying that they're bad players, by any means. Neither are you. I'm saying that at the tournament both RorO and Curious played pretty terribly. By the way, Curious got knocked out in a ZvZ anyway, so his performance is actually kinda irrelevant. Neither of them were considered favourites to win the tournament, or even go that far, because the Protoss representation was soooo stacked. They didn't play at Code S, or even A level at WCS. On the flipside, Taeja is definitely better than virtually everyone at DH with the possible exception of hero. He's also shown dominance in the past. Come on. You have to look at the competition to judge the caliber of a tournament. With 8 Zergs advancing to the Ro16 it's nearly impossible that some wouldn't advance. You do realize that every round past the first has been at least 50% Zerg at this GSL, right? No need to flame me. Maybe it was rude of me to compare you to Incontrol. I apologize for that. But your personality should match your ability, if possible. | ||
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AbideWithMe
207 Posts
On November 25 2012 03:11 Shiori wrote: WCS: No good Zergs were present. Rain beating Idra is as significant as MC taking out Incontrol. GSL: Of 9 Zergs at the event, 8 made it to the next round. Of 9 Protoss, 2 made it through. A 4 Zerg group meant that Zergs were necessarily eliminated in ZvZ. Half the Ro8 was Zerg. One of the Zergs eliminated was eliminated in ZvZ. IEM: We're talking about a tournament that didn't even have any Terrans qualify as an example of balance? LOL. DH: Two top tier Koreans (Taeja + Hero) stomping foreigners isn't an indication of anything. Nothing is an indication for you as long as it doesn't support your own opinion. This thread has become a massive circle jerk of people who want to see Zerg nerfed into oblivion. It is beyond me how people fail to acknowledge how huge of a change and game breaking this would be. Even Idra got himself to post a pretty objective post on this topic instead of just calling all supporters retarded. If Blizzard really wants to pull through with this insane change Zerg has to be significantly buffed in other aspects which would instantly trigger new nerf screams. Yes. Broodlord Infestor is overpowered in late game against protoss (in my opinion even more so against terran and Blizzard doesn't care to change that a single bit with this strawman change of a HSM buff) but the way to balance that is through either number changes of the fungal growth in dps and root time or the change to a significant slow spell but surely not through making a third of the protoss army including low tech units such as sentries and warp prism invincible to the most important and vital to surviving spell the zerg has. EDIT: Oh wow. Idra at it again! | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:16 AbideWithMe wrote: Nothing is an indication for you as long as it doesn't support your own opinion. This thread has become a massive circle jerk of people who want to see Zerg nerfed into oblivion. It is beyond me how people fail to acknowledge how huge of a change and game breaking this would be. Even Idra got himself to post a pretty objective post on this topic instead of just calling all supporters retarded. If Blizzard really wants to pull through with this insane change Zerg has to be significantly buffed in other aspects which would instantly trigger new nerf screams. Yes. Broodlord Infestor is overpowered in late game against protoss (in my opinion even more so against terran and Blizzard doesn't care to change that a single bit with this strawman change of a HSM buff) but the way to balance that is through either number changes of the fungal growth in dps and root time or the change to a significant slow spell but surely not through making a third of the protoss army including low tech units such as sentries and warp prism invincible to the most important and vital to surviving spell the zerg has. Idra called me stupid twice in the same post. I'm not sure what biased goggles you're wearing to think he was being patient. I already said I'd be willing to support a Hydralisk buff in exchange for serious nerfs to the Infestor. I also said Sentries shouldn't be immune to Fungal. Please don't paint me with the wrong brush. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:21 monkybone wrote: Then again you managed to insult both idra and incontrol, so don't blame him for calling you stupid. How did I insult Incontrol? The guy is fucking awesome and I'm a huge fan. Nevertheless, I don't think he's the measure of balance when you stack him up against Rain. I don't think he'd dispute that Rain is a gigantic favourite. And yes, I apologized for comparing Idra to Incontrol, because it's true that Idra is a stronger player. Nevertheless, I still would say that Rain is a level above. That's not an attack on Idra's character. It's just stating that I don't think you can compare someone like Rain to Idra's at their current level of form and come away with a clear picture of the matchup. | ||
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AbideWithMe
207 Posts
Edit: Lol. Of Course I'm not talking about his last post but this one: On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote: immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:04 Twilight Sparkle wrote: Nobody's saying that you're supposed to switch into a pure immortal composition when your opponent goes hydras, the point is that, if P goes for immortals, Z going into hydralisks will not counter them. Immortals are still cost- and supply-efficient against hydras. That's not really his point. Hydras can and do beat immortals in "real" situations because hydra tech switching is fast and immortal production is slow. You don't build immortal max pushes like you do with siege tanks in BW, where you defend, defend, defend, all the while slowly adding to your tank count. Immortals don't do well enough versus tier 3. The immortal pushes we're seeing are all about exploiting a mostly razor thin timing versus the pre-infestor 3hatch/60drone zerg meta. The thing is that hydras are just a little bit too bad, so you're setting yourself up for a loss against many other compositions. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:22 AbideWithMe wrote: Shiori your claims and estimations of skill are pretty ridiculous. Who are you to judge who's good and who's not? Curious is a really, really good zerg who has just underperformed a bit recently but this happens in a competition as hard as Korea. And since when is Parting suddenly top Tier in comparison to Curious? I remember a time where he was easily 3-0ed by Stephano in a foreign tournament and in general had pretty lackluster performance. Parting has recently been lauded as one of the best PvZers just because of how good his Immortal/Sentry is. And yeah, Curious is a strong Zerg. Top 5 in the world, probably. The trouble is that at WCS he actually played really badly. Not just slumping. He played bad. I hope he recovers because he's fun to watch, but he really didn't play like a top Code S level player. That sort of play wouldn't get you into Code A, let alone out of it. It's worth pointing out that Curious got 3-0d by Sen, who is a Zerg, so I'm not sure what his performance has to do with establishing balance to start with. Again, not saying he's not a strong player, but he definitely played extremely poorly at WCS. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:22 AbideWithMe wrote: Shiori your claims and estimations of skill are pretty ridiculous. Who are you to judge who's good and who's not? Curious is a really, really good zerg who has just underperformed a bit recently but this happens in a competition as hard as Korea. And since when is Parting suddenly top Tier in comparison to Curious? I remember a time where he was easily 3-0ed by Stephano in a foreign tournament and in general had pretty lackluster performance. Edit: Lol. Of Course I'm not talking about his last post but this one: [/QUOTE] I agree with that post. Sentries should not be immune to Fungal, as I've stated several times in this thread. Idra is right on that. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:03 IdrA wrote: you cant downplay roro and curious and in the same breath call taeja and hero top tier. theyre all really good, hero and taeja arent exactly ripping up gsl right now. they just look better because theyre on liquid and you're dumb. a 4 zerg group also means 2 are guaranteed to advance. and the "tournament that didnt have any terrans" still has a terran in the top 4, and he knocked out another terran. so basically; shut the fuck up. Please. I want you to look at Taeja play. Now I want you to look at Roro or Curious, and tell me those guys are even in the same realm as Taeja. Hero though...very inconsistent. One tournament, he looks like Rain/Parting/Squirtle/Seed, the next tournament he just looks like shit. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 04:26 TimENT wrote: Please. I want you to look at Taeja play. Now I want you to look at Roro or Curious, and tell me those guys are even in the same realm as Taeja. Hero though...very inconsistent. One tournament, he looks like Rain/Parting/Squirtle/Seed, the next tournament he just looks like shit. On a good day I'd say Curious is easily capable of beating Taeja. The trouble is that the Curious from WCS didn't look like that at all. | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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