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On November 24 2012 14:45 Scila wrote:
This balance map is not very useful. There are no zergs wanting to try LOL every time I join its Protoss or Terran. Zergs don't want to play a version where they are weaker.
Well, I stopped playing Z on the map when all my Protoss opponents still only went two base allin... Nothing to test there, if my opponents only try to decide the game before Infestors...
So it is playing P for me all the way.
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On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through.
When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time.
Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible"
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On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible"
Immortals counter Hydras.
Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing.
But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger.
So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid.
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On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid.
Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by.
And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched.
As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision.
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On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by. And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched. As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision.
Going hydras means you delayed tech for infestor.
If Toss knows this, they They don't have to attack and can easily transition into collosus and just steam-rolled through with a later 3-base timings.
The only scenario ever in ZvP where hydras is used is when.
Toss goes heavy double stargate.
OR.
Nydus-Hydra All-in.
Beyond this,Hydras are useless.
Please be so kind provide replays where Zergs used hydras to stop Immortal/Sentry all-in.
I have seen games from WCS where Zerg pros went hydras to stop the Immortal/Sentry and they all failed.
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On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by. And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched. As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision.
He is wrong, immortals don't counter Hydras, but a inmortal/sentry push can just go back get a third and get colossi if you go hydras, and you can't do a single thing to punish them.
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On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by.
Test it (1:2 ratio):
1 Immortal beats 2 Hydras - barely
50 Immortals beat 100Hydras - very handily
Hence, Immortals counter hydras per supply and cost. (sure, when we talk outnumbering and different income scenarios, hydras can beat Immortals, but roach/ling does that as well, even more handily. Hydra/ling does it best of those combos, but then upgraded Zealot/Immortal counters this again and as Hydras use up the same space as roaches and are slower, Forcefields can catch more hydras worth of money than roaches etc etc...)
Sorry, but not everything blizzard has written in some Noob-Guide holds. Especially as they wrote that before the hydra nerfs and the immortal buff.
On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:
And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched.
As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision.
No, the argument was about a normal Immortal/Sentry push, that you put into a spot somewhere on the map, where you can control counterattacks (assuming such a map) and cannot be defeated (narrow spaces, walls etc) and then just warp in until you max. And then basically every Protoss max beats roach/ling.
Not saying I agree with Idra, ITs are still really good, fungal on everything but the sentries is still good, but yes, it's an unnecessary buff to an already overly successful allin.
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Really, if infested Terrans came out in 60-80 (down from 100) health eggs over 6 secs (up from 5), it would give Protoss a lot easier time to use HTs against them without directly nerfing them.
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Gfdg fgfff fcfcc ddfd Dodd dsdx h cccc zzz
Or????
User was temp banned for this post.
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Would it be completely inconceivable to have an Immortal nerf? Help the Zerg with the Protoss all in and mech, at least in HOTS?
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On November 24 2012 19:16 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Would it be completely inconceivable to have an Immortal nerf? Help the Zerg with the Protoss all in and mech, at least in HOTS?
Wasn't the immortal buff the only thing that made the 1/1/1 consistently holdable though?
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On November 24 2012 19:16 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Would it be completely inconceivable to have an Immortal nerf? Help the Zerg with the Protoss all in and mech, at least in HOTS?
Yes. They would have to nerf the roach as well with this, but YES, YES, YES. 
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Ling/infestor/muta are all good vs the immortal.
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On November 24 2012 18:29 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 18:12 Big J wrote:On November 24 2012 17:48 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 16:40 IdrA wrote:On November 24 2012 15:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 14:47 plogamer wrote:On November 24 2012 14:40 HappyTimePANDA wrote:On November 24 2012 10:27 Anomi wrote:On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords. Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing?? but the problem with the infestor is late game not mid. The immortal sentry push is already balanced, its hard to hold. With infestor not working at all on sentries then it will be even stronger. They need to find a solution that affects late game infestor only, or if they go this route zerg needs a boost to mid somewhere else. Immortal/sentry hits before infestors pop up. This so much ^^ This change does not affect the sentry/immortal timing push, and seriously if a zerg cant intercept and deflect a late game drop by getting advance notice of its incoming from good overlord spread, and then using a few of its shit ton of corruptors positioned in a defensive role to kill it before units can warp in without infestors rooting the wp, then they are frankly unimaginative and lazy.. immortal sentry is forced to attack before infestors can come out because infestors shut it down. without that threat it can sit in the center of the map building units/mana essentially until max and theres nothing zerg can really do about it. once theres 4-5 immortals and infinite forcefield roach ling is literally useless. on a map where you can threaten while controlling counter attacks delayed sentry immortal allins will be essentially invincible if the fungal change goes through. When the zerg gets infestors out, they can root down the immortals, thus stalling the push (unless the toss want to go in fighting with water guns). Then send in some zerglings to try to clean up the sentrys, and if they use ff, they loose that energy for later when they would have been attacking, and it must be recharged, which takes even more time. Also, if the toss is just going to "sit in the center of the map," dont be so dense, and get out hydras to counter the immortals before they get to your base, or mutas to go in and pick off the sentries while they have little to no anti-air. Between using infestors to fungal immortals (as they have 3 more range than them and can burrow under ff), trying to pick off sentries with zerglings or mutas (vibe did a great job of this with lings against alicia recently), and getting out hydras to tackle immortals once they finally get to your base, there is absolutely no reason a delayed sentry immortal push should be anywhere near "invincible" Immortals counter Hydras. Also, he is assuming a Protoss with a brain. Of course, if he "just sits there", you can tech to whatever you want. But what if he goes there sits there and you don't know for how long he will sit? If you max on roaches, you lose to the sitting, if you tech to something else, you lose to the pushing. But I'm not really sure if I agree with Idra on this. Infested Terrans are still really good vs Immortal/Sentry. Continously attacking it on the moveout with roach/ling is still the best counter imo. Still, Sentries should be able to get fungaled. Zerg only has two units that have the range to attack units over forcefields right now. And teching to Broodlords at 12min to be able to participate in midgame combats doesn't sound like an option, when Infestors can't do it anylonger. So immuning Sentries to fungal seems stupid. Please explain to me how an immortal, which is a counter to armored units (siege tank, roach), is a counter to hydralisks (a light unit)?? In fact, on both of their wiki pages it is explicitly stated that the hydra is an effective counter to immortals..it is collosi that the hydra is countered by. And the argument was about a late push by the toss, where the zerg has already had the opportunity to tech to hive. The post I was responding to stated that infestors being able to fungal sentries was the only reason that the sentry/immortal push came before infestors poped, and therefore now the push would come later and be invincible. So thats what my post was responding to..a zerg that has already teched. As far as not knowing whether you should tech or max out as zerg, well thats a two way street.. The toss has to worry about the same thing as they must worry that if they attack now you'll already have the army to stop them, or if they wait you'll get better tier units out to counter them. Its not just something one player can get boned by for making the wrong decision.
Everything counter the hydras. Making hydras, unless you outskill your opponent by a huge margin OR hit a sweet sweet timing (very tight) where the protoss is going for like a very greedy third or something and skim on units is the only time hydras would work. Making hydras to counter sentry immortal is bad because they just need to put down a robo and come back with the giraffes.
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Idk fungal not working on warp prism seems a bit odd. It'll be pretty easy to escape with a WP basically always not sure.
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You can't buff tanks or nerf immortals without ruining tvp again
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make sentry and warp prism not psionic. This way warp prism won't autowin games nor sentries will be able to make toss army completely untouchable. everyone with reason can see that this is going to happen with such a terribly designed nerf.
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On November 25 2012 00:28 MateShade wrote:
You can't buff tanks or nerf immortals without ruining tvp again
Yes you can, you can definitely buff tanks without ruining TvP. Hasn't ANYONE considered making Siege Tech research take significantly longer to research and have an increased cost (say 200/200) in return for a stronger Siege Mode Tank??
That would be meaningless in 1-1-1 because Siege Tech wouldn't be out in time. Seriously, how the fuck did Blizzard did not do that in the first place instead of taking such a huge shit on tanks??
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On November 25 2012 00:42 Karpfen wrote:
make sentry and warp prism not psionic. This way warp prism won't autowin games nor sentries will be able to make toss army completely untouchable. everyone with reason can see that this is going to happen with such a terribly designed nerf.
Yes for Sentries, no for Warp Prisms. Harassment being super strong lategame is a good thing. BL/Infestor will have no weaknesses, otherwise. But yes, Sentries should have psionic removed.
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EPT
