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On November 24 2012 09:30 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:22 Snowbear wrote:Am I the only one seeing a problem with TvZ atm? This patch will not change things... Good overseer usage will be key to kill cloacked ghosts. Broodlord infestor corruptor is just way too strong.. Proof? GSL code A spoilers!! + Show Spoiler +Taeja vs dark: taeja with 5 bases vs dark with 3 bases, and taeja had to fight like a beast... Can someone explain why blizzard thinks its all fine in tvz? In HotS, they have plans to change the instant cast into a projectile, that will make things easier for Hellions and Vikings.
I don't understand why they're leaving that only for HotS. If I recall they said it'd be too big a change for WoL, but that never stopped them before. If they think that it'll help balance the game then it's doing a disservice to all the non-Zerg players out there to hold it back and leave things less balanced.
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On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast.
Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass.
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The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
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So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones
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On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass.
Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent.
On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change.
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On November 24 2012 10:19 HappyTimePANDA wrote:
So they want to make sentry immortal pushes even stronger? I don't think this is the way to fix the issues. This will just add new ones
If thats the case they just nerf protoss, Its one problem at the time. The immortal all in and the infesters are 2 different problems. You really think the solution is to solve a problem with another problem?. The problem we have today is because they fixed a issue zerg hade with protoss death ball. The change was not even intended to effect TvZ. Is seems the change they made was to drastic and hade effects that was not intended. I don’t believe it was intended to strengthen the late game aspect of broodlords.
Infesters need a balance change and if that change end up making other aspect of the game where balance is a issue more visible isn’t that a good thing??
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People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change.
Maybe for the moment the infestor change would create some problems but in the long run we want a game that is enjoyable too play and watch . Being afraid of changes just because they will effect us for couple of months wont make this game any better. If other issues occur with the infestors t nerf then they need to be fixed also and blizzard have proven that they will fix them even if they take there time. If all these changes then lead to a game play that is more enjoyable to watch and play i believe we can put up with some months of unbalance time to time.
So the question you should ask your self is not about the nerfs or buffs itself but if you like how the game play is right now. Maybe blizzard will buff other zerg units now when the infestor have been toned down. Maybe the infestors makes it so that other units cant be buffes like the sentry does for the protoss. We actually don’t know but I myself don’t have any problem with he mid game but despise the kind of game play they create late game,
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On November 24 2012 10:40 Anomi wrote:Show nested quote +
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change.
Maybe for the moment the infestor change would create some problems but in the long run we want a game that is enjoyable too play and watch . Being afraid of changes just because they will effect us for couple of months wont make this game any better. If other issues occur with the infestors t nerf then they need to be fixed also and blizzard have proven that they will fix them even if they take there time. If all these changes then lead to a game play that is more enjoyable to watch and play i believe we can put up with some months of unbalance time to time. So the question you should ask your self is not about the nerfs or buffs itself but if you like how the game play is right now. Maybe blizzard will buff other zerg units now when the infestor have been toned down. Maybe the infestors makes it so that other units cant be buffes like the sentry does for the protoss. We actually don’t know but I myself don’t have any problem with he mid game but despise the kind of game play they create late game,
I agree that infestors need to be nerfed, and that radical changes should be made to the game. A lot of things, force fields and fungals being the most prominent, need to be redesigned in some significant way. I personally am a fan of making fungal a slow and giving force fields a lot of HP that naturally degenerates by 1/15 per second, but that's just theorycraft and may not work in practice. I want those radical changes you're talking about, not these lame little bandaid fixes. I want infestor-corruptor-broodlord to be dethroned, but this change won't do it. It won't help even a tiny bit.
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This is confusing. how do we know what units to fungal and what not to waste energy on. it's too confusing. why not just make it a projectile like you were going to. And if you want a real solution make the fungalled units able to queue up commands while fungalled IE leave the area. that way the zerg is going to waste time he could be doing other things doing chain fungalling, and it should all work out
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On November 24 2012 10:26 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass. Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent. Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change.
Not at all. Defensive nyduses are great. They only haven't been used because Zerg hasn't had to use them. Now, Zerg will have to finally work harder to deal with the new patch.
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On November 24 2012 11:01 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 10:40 Anomi wrote:
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change.
Maybe for the moment the infestor change would create some problems but in the long run we want a game that is enjoyable too play and watch . Being afraid of changes just because they will effect us for couple of months wont make this game any better. If other issues occur with the infestors t nerf then they need to be fixed also and blizzard have proven that they will fix them even if they take there time. If all these changes then lead to a game play that is more enjoyable to watch and play i believe we can put up with some months of unbalance time to time. So the question you should ask your self is not about the nerfs or buffs itself but if you like how the game play is right now. Maybe blizzard will buff other zerg units now when the infestor have been toned down. Maybe the infestors makes it so that other units cant be buffes like the sentry does for the protoss. We actually don’t know but I myself don’t have any problem with he mid game but despise the kind of game play they create late game, I agree that infestors need to be nerfed, and that radical changes should be made to the game. A lot of things, force fields and fungals being the most prominent, need to be redesigned in some significant way. I personally am a fan of making fungal a slow and giving force fields a lot of HP that naturally degenerates by 1/15 per second, but that's just theorycraft and may not work in practice. I want those radical changes you're talking about, not these lame little bandaid fixes. I want infestor-corruptor-broodlord to be dethroned, but this change won't do it. It won't help even a tiny bit.
I think most people can see a glaring problem in PvZ when Zerg's 200 army beats Protoss's 200 army. But if for some reason the Zerg has poor control and trades very inefficently, Zerg still can immediately re-max at 200, and then destroy Protoss. And if that wasn't enough, they probably would have dropped a wall of spines and spores, further strengthening the position.
These changes are necessary, and hopefully more to come.
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On November 24 2012 11:13 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 11:01 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:40 Anomi wrote:
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change.
Maybe for the moment the infestor change would create some problems but in the long run we want a game that is enjoyable too play and watch . Being afraid of changes just because they will effect us for couple of months wont make this game any better. If other issues occur with the infestors t nerf then they need to be fixed also and blizzard have proven that they will fix them even if they take there time. If all these changes then lead to a game play that is more enjoyable to watch and play i believe we can put up with some months of unbalance time to time. So the question you should ask your self is not about the nerfs or buffs itself but if you like how the game play is right now. Maybe blizzard will buff other zerg units now when the infestor have been toned down. Maybe the infestors makes it so that other units cant be buffes like the sentry does for the protoss. We actually don’t know but I myself don’t have any problem with he mid game but despise the kind of game play they create late game, I agree that infestors need to be nerfed, and that radical changes should be made to the game. A lot of things, force fields and fungals being the most prominent, need to be redesigned in some significant way. I personally am a fan of making fungal a slow and giving force fields a lot of HP that naturally degenerates by 1/15 per second, but that's just theorycraft and may not work in practice. I want those radical changes you're talking about, not these lame little bandaid fixes. I want infestor-corruptor-broodlord to be dethroned, but this change won't do it. It won't help even a tiny bit. I think most people can see a glaring problem in PvZ when Zerg's 200 army beats Protoss's 200 army. But if for some reason the Zerg has poor control and trades very inefficently, Zerg still can immediately re-max at 200, and then destroy Protoss. And if that wasn't enough, they probably would have dropped a wall of spines and spores, further strengthening the position. These changes are necessary, and hopefully more to come.
And making psionic units immune to fungal changes that how, exactly? Broodlords are killed by stalkers, void rays, archon toilets and carriers (though voids and carriers are both pretty bad at it). Of those solutions, only archon toilets are affected, and a) they aren't sufficient now that zergs spread their armies and b) having the entire game decided by a single spell is exactly what we're trying to move away from. But making psionic units immune does make protoss all-ins and timing attacks harder to stop, which is... also not a good thing, because WonWonWon and pre-hive timings are already strong enough that the PvZ winrate is about 50/50 despite zerg autowinning in the late game.
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On November 24 2012 11:19 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 11:13 zmansman17 wrote:On November 24 2012 11:01 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:40 Anomi wrote:
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change.
Maybe for the moment the infestor change would create some problems but in the long run we want a game that is enjoyable too play and watch . Being afraid of changes just because they will effect us for couple of months wont make this game any better. If other issues occur with the infestors t nerf then they need to be fixed also and blizzard have proven that they will fix them even if they take there time. If all these changes then lead to a game play that is more enjoyable to watch and play i believe we can put up with some months of unbalance time to time. So the question you should ask your self is not about the nerfs or buffs itself but if you like how the game play is right now. Maybe blizzard will buff other zerg units now when the infestor have been toned down. Maybe the infestors makes it so that other units cant be buffes like the sentry does for the protoss. We actually don’t know but I myself don’t have any problem with he mid game but despise the kind of game play they create late game, I agree that infestors need to be nerfed, and that radical changes should be made to the game. A lot of things, force fields and fungals being the most prominent, need to be redesigned in some significant way. I personally am a fan of making fungal a slow and giving force fields a lot of HP that naturally degenerates by 1/15 per second, but that's just theorycraft and may not work in practice. I want those radical changes you're talking about, not these lame little bandaid fixes. I want infestor-corruptor-broodlord to be dethroned, but this change won't do it. It won't help even a tiny bit. I think most people can see a glaring problem in PvZ when Zerg's 200 army beats Protoss's 200 army. But if for some reason the Zerg has poor control and trades very inefficently, Zerg still can immediately re-max at 200, and then destroy Protoss. And if that wasn't enough, they probably would have dropped a wall of spines and spores, further strengthening the position. These changes are necessary, and hopefully more to come. And making psionic units immune to fungal changes that how, exactly? Broodlords are killed by stalkers, void rays, archon toilets and carriers (though voids and carriers are both pretty bad at it). Of those solutions, only archon toilets are affected, and a) they aren't sufficient now that zergs spread their armies and b) having the entire game decided by a single spell is exactly what we're trying to move away from. But making psionic units immune does make protoss all-ins and timing attacks harder to stop, which is... also not a good thing, because WonWonWon and pre-hive timings are already strong enough that the PvZ winrate is about 50/50 despite zerg autowinning in the late game.
Templar are more likely to get feedbacks and storms off now. Thats the biggest change to the end game battles. I fail to see how that won't change anything.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass.
If Jaedong can make literally one mutalisk in a ZvP for the sole purpose of killing observers, I think people can consider making 2-4 corrupters or mutalisks soley for warp prism defense. Terrans build 1-2 vikings all the time to defend against warp prisms, why shouldn't zerg do the same?
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United States7483 Posts
On November 24 2012 11:11 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 10:26 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass. Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent. On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change. Not at all. Defensive nyduses are great. They only haven't been used because Zerg hasn't had to use them. Now, Zerg will have to finally work harder to deal with the new patch.
I've seen games (can't remember who was playing) where the zerg would put one nydus at each base and leave about 5-10 hydralisks and an infestor or two in the nydus for drop defense, and whenever a medivac showed up he popped out, fungaled the units and the hydras cleaned it up super easily. He was able to defend all of his bases with just these units, even defending a few at the same time by being quick about it.
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On November 24 2012 12:35 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 11:11 zmansman17 wrote:On November 24 2012 10:26 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass. Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent. On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change. Not at all. Defensive nyduses are great. They only haven't been used because Zerg hasn't had to use them. Now, Zerg will have to finally work harder to deal with the new patch. I've seen games (can't remember who was playing) where the zerg would put one nydus at each base and leave about 5-10 hydralisks and an infestor or two in the nydus for drop defense, and whenever a medivac showed up he popped out, fungaled the units and the hydras cleaned it up super easily. He was able to defend all of his bases with just these units, even defending a few at the same time by being quick about it.
Oh, he was able to defend against a medivac with just a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras, and an infestor or two?
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United States7483 Posts
On November 24 2012 13:20 orBitual wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 12:35 Whitewing wrote:On November 24 2012 11:11 zmansman17 wrote:On November 24 2012 10:26 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:
[quote]
You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so.
well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass. Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent. On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change. Not at all. Defensive nyduses are great. They only haven't been used because Zerg hasn't had to use them. Now, Zerg will have to finally work harder to deal with the new patch. I've seen games (can't remember who was playing) where the zerg would put one nydus at each base and leave about 5-10 hydralisks and an infestor or two in the nydus for drop defense, and whenever a medivac showed up he popped out, fungaled the units and the hydras cleaned it up super easily. He was able to defend all of his bases with just these units, even defending a few at the same time by being quick about it. Oh, he was able to defend against a medivac with just a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras, and an infestor or two?
He was able to defend against many drops over a long course of time with a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras and a couple of infestors.
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On November 24 2012 13:39 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 13:20 orBitual wrote:On November 24 2012 12:35 Whitewing wrote:On November 24 2012 11:11 zmansman17 wrote:On November 24 2012 10:26 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:
[quote]
well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much?
spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass. Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent. On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change. Not at all. Defensive nyduses are great. They only haven't been used because Zerg hasn't had to use them. Now, Zerg will have to finally work harder to deal with the new patch. I've seen games (can't remember who was playing) where the zerg would put one nydus at each base and leave about 5-10 hydralisks and an infestor or two in the nydus for drop defense, and whenever a medivac showed up he popped out, fungaled the units and the hydras cleaned it up super easily. He was able to defend all of his bases with just these units, even defending a few at the same time by being quick about it. Oh, he was able to defend against a medivac with just a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras, and an infestor or two? He was able to defend against many drops over a long course of time with a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras and a couple of infestors.
100/100 for den, 150/150 for grooved spines and 150/200 for nydus network means you've set yourself back 400/450 before you've made a single nydus worm or hydralisk. Going by your minimum estimate of 5, the hydras cost an extra 500/250 and a few nydus worms, say 3, is another 300/300, for a total resource investment of 1200 minerals and 1000 gas. It's a terribly inefficient way of defending against drops that probably costs you more resources than it saves.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 24 2012 13:48 Twilight Sparkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 13:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 24 2012 13:20 orBitual wrote:On November 24 2012 12:35 Whitewing wrote:On November 24 2012 11:11 zmansman17 wrote:On November 24 2012 10:26 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:
[quote]
Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass. Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent. On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change. Not at all. Defensive nyduses are great. They only haven't been used because Zerg hasn't had to use them. Now, Zerg will have to finally work harder to deal with the new patch. I've seen games (can't remember who was playing) where the zerg would put one nydus at each base and leave about 5-10 hydralisks and an infestor or two in the nydus for drop defense, and whenever a medivac showed up he popped out, fungaled the units and the hydras cleaned it up super easily. He was able to defend all of his bases with just these units, even defending a few at the same time by being quick about it. Oh, he was able to defend against a medivac with just a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras, and an infestor or two? He was able to defend against many drops over a long course of time with a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras and a couple of infestors. 100/100 for den, 150/150 for grooved spines and 150/200 for nydus network means you've set yourself back 400/450 before you've made a single nydus worm or hydralisk. Going by your minimum estimate of 5, the hydras cost an extra 500/250 and a few nydus worms, say 3, is another 300/300, for a total resource investment of 1200 minerals and 1000 gas. It's a terribly inefficient way of defending against drops that probably costs you more resources than it saves.
Beats losing drones and hatcheries, opens nydus tech for multi-pronged aggression and unit retreats, and those units can be used in the army later if you need to. They're not great in a fight but they are pretty decent when protected by say.... broodlings. More importantly, it's a lot more supply efficient drop defense than keeping groups of infestors and lings at each base or a bunch of lings and some banes, and it's less costly in terms of resources than putting 4-5 spines and a couple spores at each base.
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On November 24 2012 13:56 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 13:48 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 13:39 Whitewing wrote:On November 24 2012 13:20 orBitual wrote:On November 24 2012 12:35 Whitewing wrote:On November 24 2012 11:11 zmansman17 wrote:On November 24 2012 10:26 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 10:13 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 24 2012 09:55 Twilight Sparkle wrote:On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:
[quote]
How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move.. You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast. Why would you need 4 at each base? The natural and main, and often 3rd (daybreak, ohana) are so close together you only need one defense force for both of them. Your main army will be near your most heavily saturated base, so that ones already covered. As long as your overlord/seer coverage gives you a few seconds advance warning that a drop is imminent, it should be fairly straightforward and easy to deflect/destroy wp harass. Actually you could be right on that. I think it's a bit map dependent. On November 24 2012 10:16 Anomi wrote:
The main point is that zerg won’t be able to invest all there supply in an immobile army. If u go 200/200 supply infester broodlord only you won’t be able to hold warp prism. What this means that you shouldn’t go 200/200 with brords and infesters and expect to hold harass effectively. Maybe it’s time to invest some of the resources to do your owns harassing or having a small supply of a mobile army to defend drops. Maybe we wills se the uses of latge game nydysworms to defend bases.
The important thing is that the metagame needs to be changed. So it’s not about how the zerg gets a nerf so there borodlord infester combo can still be applied as it is right now . It’s a nerf that makes that composition not the most optimal one despite your opponents composition.
People have been talking about defensive nyduses for a long time now, and the problem with them is exactly the same as it's always been. They're way too fragile and the unload speed is so slow that you'll actually get there faster by walking unless your army is on the opposite side of the map. And broodlord-corruptor-infestor is still going to be the only strategy Zerg use late game. It'll be weaker, yes, but every Zerg lategame composition relies on infestors, so nerfing infestors affects them all equally. In fact, broodlord-corruptor is probably the least affected by this change. Not at all. Defensive nyduses are great. They only haven't been used because Zerg hasn't had to use them. Now, Zerg will have to finally work harder to deal with the new patch. I've seen games (can't remember who was playing) where the zerg would put one nydus at each base and leave about 5-10 hydralisks and an infestor or two in the nydus for drop defense, and whenever a medivac showed up he popped out, fungaled the units and the hydras cleaned it up super easily. He was able to defend all of his bases with just these units, even defending a few at the same time by being quick about it. Oh, he was able to defend against a medivac with just a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras, and an infestor or two? He was able to defend against many drops over a long course of time with a nydus at each base, 5-10 hydras and a couple of infestors. 100/100 for den, 150/150 for grooved spines and 150/200 for nydus network means you've set yourself back 400/450 before you've made a single nydus worm or hydralisk. Going by your minimum estimate of 5, the hydras cost an extra 500/250 and a few nydus worms, say 3, is another 300/300, for a total resource investment of 1200 minerals and 1000 gas. It's a terribly inefficient way of defending against drops that probably costs you more resources than it saves. Beats losing drones and hatcheries, opens nydus tech for multi-pronged aggression and unit retreats, and those units can be used in the army later if you need to. They're not great in a fight but they are pretty decent when protected by say.... broodlings. More importantly, it's a lot more supply efficient drop defense than keeping groups of infestors and lings at each base or a bunch of lings and some banes, and it's less costly in terms of resources than putting 4-5 spines and a couple spores at each base.
I guess if your plan for stopping a 200 mineral 2 supply warp prism is a 1400 mineral 1400+ gas investment, gl hf.
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EPT
