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On November 24 2012 08:57 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 08:48 Jimbo77 wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. because of inherent greediness because if you wanted to stop warp prism harass so that no way in hell they could get in you would need 20+ at each base, which btw is a lot specially when you have 4 bases or so. Zergs do put spore crawlers, but it's not very feasible to expect zergs to put a spore everywhere in their base so that a warp prism is killed no matter what lol.
You deal with Warp ins the exact same way you do now. The only difference is that the Prism will more likely get away. That means that Protoss can have a permanent threat of harassment. It doesn't mean that the harassment will necessarily do more damage.
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Fungal can't catch dark templars...? Hmmm....
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On November 24 2012 08:49 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 08:38 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up. The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga). This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance. There is no way Protoss has infrastructure off of 3 base to do a killing-blow warp in with a Warp Prism. Expect 4-7 units tops. Hardly unkillable considering at the time of a midgame all-in you should still have plenty of non-BL units. And by the way, the balance of the matchup needs to be changed, not just the design.
It's not warp-ins that are really problematic, it's more double immortal drops. If there is no threat of getting fungaled and losing 3 expensive units, you can just run those everywhere and pick up once the army gets to you.
And that's not even addressing late immortal/ sentries push that hits after the first couple of infestors get out.
As far as balance goes, there is just a lot of bitching from protoss, not that much concrete proof of imbalance.
People cried about mlg which only had a 36-32 winning score for ZvP in pool and final bracket play, GSl season 4: 26-24, WCS was dominated by Protoss, so was WCG Korea, OSL. A Protoss won ESWC, they are doing well in DH, IEM and very well in GSTL.
The only place they are struggling is this season of GSL.
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why so many ppl complain about dt, in hots u dont need evo chamber too build spores
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Am I the only one seeing a problem with TvZ atm? This patch will not change things... Good overseer usage will be key to kill cloacked ghosts. Broodlord infestor corruptor is just way too strong.. Proof?
GSL code A spoilers!!
+ Show Spoiler +Taeja vs dark: taeja with 5 bases vs dark with 3 bases, and taeja had to fight like a beast...
Can someone explain why blizzard thinks its all fine in tvz?
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On November 24 2012 09:15 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 08:49 Shiori wrote:On November 24 2012 08:38 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up. The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga). This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance. There is no way Protoss has infrastructure off of 3 base to do a killing-blow warp in with a Warp Prism. Expect 4-7 units tops. Hardly unkillable considering at the time of a midgame all-in you should still have plenty of non-BL units. And by the way, the balance of the matchup needs to be changed, not just the design. It's not warp-ins that are really problematic, it's more double immortal drops. If there is no threat of getting fungaled and losing 3 expensive units, you can just run those everywhere and pick up once the army gets to you. And that's not even addressing late immortal/ sentries push that hits after the first couple of infestors get out. As far as balance goes, there is just a lot of bitching from protoss, not that much concrete proof of imbalance. People cried about mlg which only had a 36-32 winning score for ZvP in pool and final bracket play, GSl season 4: 26-24, WCS was dominated by Protoss, so was WCG Korea, OSL. A Protoss won ESWC, they are doing well in DH, IEM and very well in GSTL. The only place they are struggling is this season of GSL.
How do Protoss players deal with Immortal drops in PvP? By spreading out Zealots and scratching the WP with Stalkers. You can do the same with Queens and Lings.
And there is definitely a problem in the lategame.
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On November 24 2012 08:49 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 08:38 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up. The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga). This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance. There is no way Protoss has infrastructure off of 3 base to do a killing-blow warp in with a Warp Prism. Expect 4-7 units tops. Hardly unkillable considering at the time of a midgame all-in you should still have plenty of non-BL units. And by the way, the balance of the matchup needs to be changed, not just the design.
Changing the design will always fuck up the balance. There's no point fixing balance if there are significant design issues, you'll have to fiddle with balance again anyway once you fix the design.
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On November 24 2012 09:22 Snowbear wrote:Am I the only one seeing a problem with TvZ atm? This patch will not change things... Good overseer usage will be key to kill cloacked ghosts. Broodlord infestor corruptor is just way too strong.. Proof? GSL code A spoilers!! + Show Spoiler +Taeja vs dark: taeja with 5 bases vs dark with 3 bases, and taeja had to fight like a beast... Can someone explain why blizzard thinks its all fine in tvz?
In HotS, they have plans to change the instant cast into a projectile, that will make things easier for Hellions and Vikings.
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On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20?
How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move..
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On November 24 2012 09:25 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:15 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 08:49 Shiori wrote:On November 24 2012 08:38 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up. The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga). This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance. There is no way Protoss has infrastructure off of 3 base to do a killing-blow warp in with a Warp Prism. Expect 4-7 units tops. Hardly unkillable considering at the time of a midgame all-in you should still have plenty of non-BL units. And by the way, the balance of the matchup needs to be changed, not just the design. It's not warp-ins that are really problematic, it's more double immortal drops. If there is no threat of getting fungaled and losing 3 expensive units, you can just run those everywhere and pick up once the army gets to you. And that's not even addressing late immortal/ sentries push that hits after the first couple of infestors get out. As far as balance goes, there is just a lot of bitching from protoss, not that much concrete proof of imbalance. People cried about mlg which only had a 36-32 winning score for ZvP in pool and final bracket play, GSl season 4: 26-24, WCS was dominated by Protoss, so was WCG Korea, OSL. A Protoss won ESWC, they are doing well in DH, IEM and very well in GSTL. The only place they are struggling is this season of GSL. How do Protoss players deal with Immortal drops in PvP? By spreading out Zealots and scratching the WP with Stalkers. You can do the same with Queens and Lings. And there is definitely a problem in the lategame.
Protoss can deal with double immortal drops with stalkers (who have, more often than not,blink), they are not really the same as queens... If Zerg could realistically use hydras, things would be different but it's not the case.
Also, double immortal drop in PvP can at best destroy robos/robos bays or forge which is very different than destroying the infestation pit the pool or the Greater spire.
And there is definitely a problem in the late game, there is as well in the mid-game towards Protoss (aka shit design).
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On November 24 2012 09:15 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 08:49 Shiori wrote:On November 24 2012 08:38 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up. The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga). This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance. There is no way Protoss has infrastructure off of 3 base to do a killing-blow warp in with a Warp Prism. Expect 4-7 units tops. Hardly unkillable considering at the time of a midgame all-in you should still have plenty of non-BL units. And by the way, the balance of the matchup needs to be changed, not just the design. It's not warp-ins that are really problematic, it's more double immortal drops. If there is no threat of getting fungaled and losing 3 expensive units, you can just run those everywhere and pick up once the army gets to you. And that's not even addressing late immortal/ sentries push that hits after the first couple of infestors get out. As far as balance goes, there is just a lot of bitching from protoss, not that much concrete proof of imbalance. People cried about mlg which only had a 36-32 winning score for ZvP in pool and final bracket play, GSl season 4: 26-24, WCS was dominated by Protoss, so was WCG Korea, OSL. A Protoss won ESWC, they are doing well in DH, IEM and very well in GSTL. The only place they are struggling is this season of GSL.
And IEM..which is half zerg..
But why cant you just fungal the immortals so they can be picked back up, and destroy them on the ground? As is, if they dropped and you destroyed the wp, you would have to kill them anyways. Without them the wp would immediately become useless, and would be no danger to you anymore anyways.
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On November 24 2012 09:39 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 09:25 Shiori wrote:On November 24 2012 09:15 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 08:49 Shiori wrote:On November 24 2012 08:38 Diavlo wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up. The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga). This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance. There is no way Protoss has infrastructure off of 3 base to do a killing-blow warp in with a Warp Prism. Expect 4-7 units tops. Hardly unkillable considering at the time of a midgame all-in you should still have plenty of non-BL units. And by the way, the balance of the matchup needs to be changed, not just the design. It's not warp-ins that are really problematic, it's more double immortal drops. If there is no threat of getting fungaled and losing 3 expensive units, you can just run those everywhere and pick up once the army gets to you. And that's not even addressing late immortal/ sentries push that hits after the first couple of infestors get out. As far as balance goes, there is just a lot of bitching from protoss, not that much concrete proof of imbalance. People cried about mlg which only had a 36-32 winning score for ZvP in pool and final bracket play, GSl season 4: 26-24, WCS was dominated by Protoss, so was WCG Korea, OSL. A Protoss won ESWC, they are doing well in DH, IEM and very well in GSTL. The only place they are struggling is this season of GSL. How do Protoss players deal with Immortal drops in PvP? By spreading out Zealots and scratching the WP with Stalkers. You can do the same with Queens and Lings. And there is definitely a problem in the lategame. Protoss can deal with double immortal drops with stalkers (who have, more often than not,blink), they are not really the same as queens... If Zerg could realistically use hydras, things would be different but it's not the case. Also, double immortal drop in PvP can at best destroy robos/robos bays or forge which is very different than destroying the infestation pit the pool or the Greater spire. And there is definitely a problem in the late game, there is as well in the mid-game towards Protoss (aka shit design).
Immortal drops are used against another Robo player. You do not have Blink at this point in the game. Secondly, Stalkers do very little damage to Warp Prisms and get killed almost instantly by 2 Immortals. You need to be making Zealots, not Stalkers, to deal with WP harass. And losing a Robo/Robo Bay is huge in PvP because it puts your opponent ahead in Colossi, which is basically GG if it becomes too large of a disparity. I don't think you understand the matchup at all.
Protoss midgame timings literally only work against Hive rushes, and even then, they don't work that often, as evidenced by Creator Prime, the inventor of the 3base all-in style, getting brutally crushed by TSLHyun in the highest level of play. There is no Protoss imbalance in the midgame. We have 1 good build (Immortal/Sentry) that has been mostly figured out at Code S level. That'll trickle down in time. Similarly, 3base all-ins are decent but are by no means some sort of 80% winrate strategy like Infestor/BL is lategame.
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anyone else here feels like SC2 PvZ plays out similar to SC1 PvT? 
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This change is actually pretty stupid imo, causes way to many imbalances for the balance it is trying to achieve, warp prism is already super fucking effective, sentries are already super strong. I would much rather prefer fungal as projectile than this. If this change would go through, I think they would have to change prism to non psionic. All in all i think this is a really poor way of dealing with shit. Protoss cries imba way to much. The problem lies with free units from units. Sure fungal sucks shit because of stun lock, but so does forcefield. It is a overall bad idea. That does not belong in this game.
This was said once on the simpsons, and it really sums up how stupid, broodlords infestors and swarmhosts really are.
"What are you gonna do, sick the dogs on me? Or the bees? Or the dogs with the bees in there mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you."
We want to micro, we want to fight with units that have a down side, I really wish Dkim and Rock would just get the big picture, change brood attack, change infested terran, change forcefield and change fungal. Change Swarmhost.
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On November 24 2012 09:37 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20? How about instead of putting in that many spore crawlers (even though you wouldnt need that many), you keep 4 corruptors or mutas back to defend against drops? With just 4 of either you can kill the warp prism before it warps in any units as long as you get your first shot off before the wp is halfway through transitioning to phase mode. Even if it does drop/warp in units, an infestor to lock down zealots and an overseer to spot dts plus a few roaches can clean it up. There is no reason you need to have fungal lock down a wp to be able to destroy it, especially if you use mutas, which are faster than a wp and can shoot on the move..
You mean 4 corruptors or mutas at each base, or just 4 of them on the map? Cos the former is not exactly efficient, and the latter won't really work. They're fast, but not that fast.
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terrible game is terrible, on to hots , stop trying to fix WOL with the little time it has left. Who are you guys fooling? By time these changes go threw HOTS would have already become main stream/released because every tournament is going to be using HOTS.
I really dont see the point in trying to change WOL at the end of its life cycle. Ultimately its going to mean nothing.
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On November 21 2012 12:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
Hate it.
Hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it.
Everything that has been wrong with Blizzards balance philosophy rolled up into one megapatch of retardation.
My interest in playing this broken and boring game has been waning for the past month or so, I think this is the nail in the coffin.
Really makes me sad because SC2 could and should be such a great game, but Blizz seems to have no fucking clue what to do with their game.
What are you so fatalistic about? This patch doesn't really do that much.
Infestors are too strong as they are, and most people acknowledge that. This is a step in the right direction.
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The change is pretty good IMO, and it makes Ghosts really interesting vs Zerg now, and HTs/DTs can now be used to counter infestors effectively, like it a lot, it means zerg can't just make infestors, and they need to treasure them more, it encourages infestor positioning instead of A-Moving, which is good. I'd make it so WPs are excluded from this though.
That said, I've always thought the more dangerous ability is actually infested terran rather than fungal.
Regarding HSM, that's a great idea, really nice change. Raven 1-1-1 might become extremely dangerous in TvP though. HSM those sentries into win.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On November 24 2012 09:50 mishimaBeef wrote:anyone else here feels like SC2 PvZ plays out similar to SC1 PvT?
Well no. SC1 PvT wasn't decided on whether the protoss could get a vortex on the army of the terran or not and due to the way arbiters moved around the map, terran couldn't just fungal and instantly shut down any attempt at in base recalls without having to invest in a lot of defense.
Also PvT generally involved terran actually pushing forward through the map to secure bases and could only defend by good mine usage/positioning of their units.
Zerg however in SC2, as maps are so tight just move forward 5 steps from their base, build a bunch of infestors/spine crawlers and instantly have 5 bases defended due to hurassment being immpossible against this supposidly immobile army that you can't even punish as it flies over the entire map and infestors are too fast.
Recalling in a terrans main could be game ending on certain maps if they wasn't prepared, heck even recalling on top of the enemies army was game ending. You can't even do that even if you wanted to in this game due to the way the infestor basically makes any attempt to even blink under broodlords completely and utterly pointless.
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On November 24 2012 10:00 mordk wrote:
Regarding HSM, that's a great idea, really nice change. Raven 1-1-1 might become extremely dangerous in TvP though. HSM those sentries into win.
Tanks already cover that, and 2 PDDs > 1 Missile.
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EPT
