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On November 24 2012 04:39 Belha wrote:
I'm a P and I'm aganist the Infestor changes.
If like the 95% of the Sc2 players want the root removed, then why is Blizzards not removing it???
Why not take the chance to improve the unit design quality?
Because a lot of players also want to play BW with SC2 graphics, a lot of them want Colossus and Infestor removed, and a lot of them want Vulture, Goliath, Lurker and Reaver back. It seems that people always know what is good for the game, even though there are 1000 different opinions that contradicts each other. And btw, 95% is huge overstatement.
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This seems like it might be really awkward in ZVZ, actually. What happens now in Infestor +[whatever] v Infestor +[whatever] ? I guess it'll just come down to who has more fungal energy, since you can't "catch" the other guy's infestors anymore.
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On November 24 2012 05:25 Garoodah wrote:
Im a masters random player and I have no issues with late game zerg. No its not because I cheese and never get to the lategame either. I dont see why everyone hates on zerg when zergs have finally figured out how to play the game with a mechanic advantage. The difference in what I need to do as a zerg and a protoss is staggering. My apm often differs by 60-80 depending on the strategy to do. Even with this decrease in apm, I still run into protoss who forget to do simple things in a fight like chronoboosting gateways or warping in, yet as a zerg I can inject mid fight and still position my army and get off solid fungals while making units. Another important thing, Protoss literally brought this increase in mechanics on themselves by going ffe. Terrans rarely put on early pressure either because of this shift in the metagame. Even 5-7 marines can ruin a zergs day in the early game. Whenever I play as zerg and see 2 zealots in my base, Ill end up overbuilding lings and be behind for potentially losing drones and making lings. So many zergs got better at injecting and learned how to play mechanically better than terran/protoss at their respective levels.
Terran has literally done the same thing since the beginning of sc2 in the lategame, marine medivac tank. Zergs have changed their lategame composition serveral times, and all of the strategies work in a individual ways. The problem is not lategame, its letting zergs get to lategame unharmed. All-ins and 2 base strategies aside, every terran/protoss that I play sits in there base until 9-11 minutes and just lets me do whatever I want to. I can rush to lair tech easily and be starting hive before most protoss get to my base when this happens. Turtle terrans do not win games against good players! Neither does a 3 base protoss when you let me get to 5 base as a zerg. Protoss have at least semi figured out that pushing into a zerg as they are morphing greater spire can win games. Terrans have learned to split their armies and drop during big engagements, as well as some incredibly positioning with tanks. Players dont need to have direct engagements to win against zergs, unless people have forgotten to base race? It happens fairly often in zvp with mutas. Zergs have always been the a-move and win race. This was incredibly easy to exploit 6 months ago when ling infestor was only starting to gain popularity.
The one main point Id like anyone to take away from this. If you let a zerg just sit back and drone, he will always get ahead. Do more pressure in the early game and you will find yourself in a much better position for the mid and late game. If a zerg is unable to saturate bases and defend against aggression then the zerg will always end up behind in the mid game, and then its the T/P's job to get farther ahead before the late game. Warp prisms and drops are one of these ways. Suicide some marines or zealots while pushing a zergs base on the other side of its bases. Youll do damage in one or even both places.
I didn't think it was possible to condense so much bias and ignorance in a single post. Please don't say that a 5-7 Marines poke can achieve anything against Queens range 5, it's absolutely laughable. Please don't say “just pressure” while Zergs were spoon-fed every single tool needed to deal with any 2-bases pressure from Terrans. Please don't say “lol Terrans just make Marines/Tanks since beta;" Terrans always had to adapt because of the various nerfs they received, and in case you failed to notice, build orders changed a lot and mech does exist. Actually, please don't try to give any piece of advice to Terrans and Protoss while it's obvious you have zero clue about what the match-up looks like from their point of view.
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On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you.
You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so.
What I don't like about the fungal change is that it doesn't change the way the spell works and makes you able to micro out of it somehow but rather it's just more random immunities added into the game. Not a big fan of that. Also it makes sentries stronger which I'm also not sure is a good thing.
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garoodah, there is no reliable "pressure" build against zerg that puts you "even" or slows them "down" in the early game. 11/11, double reactor hellions, all of these kind of things have formulaic responses that can and will put zerg ahead should he scout them, so the meta game is favoring "marines/tanks" as you say. Even builds that should in theory be solid like the 2/2 timing push we see in TvZ almost every game can be crushed by lair tech if zerg reads the situation properly and is able to get nice creep spread. ive played random since the beta and i can tell you that my build for zvt hasn't changed in like a year and a half (3 queen, 2 gas, 3 hatch, into speed + mutas) whereas i'm changing my main tvz build every month or so, and have map specific variations, etc. i dont think you are random buddy 
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On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so.
In lategame TvP you have no other choice but to set huge Turret rings if you don't want to die to a single Prism penetrating your base, and Terrans don't have Spines or units as fast as Speedlings to clear warp-ins should they occur.
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3815 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:41 sylverfyre wrote:
This seems like it might be really awkward in ZVZ, actually. What happens now in Infestor +[whatever] v Infestor +[whatever] ? I guess it'll just come down to who has more fungal energy, since you can't "catch" the other guy's infestors anymore.
Be like Snute and flank with your army rather than just spell-casters.
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Has anyone tried 1-1-1 raven with seeker missile?
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And then they split their units and all your starport investments come down to a really expensive detecting paperweight.
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so has anyone here even played the custom map?
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On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so.
well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much?
spores are already the cheapest building.
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On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building.
Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20?
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On November 24 2012 07:06 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. Speed-prism survives flying over 3 spores. How many spores should be in each base? 10? 15? 20?
speed prism survives flying over 3 spores? do you have these 3 spores tight together?
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On November 24 2012 06:07 darkness wrote:
Has anyone tried 1-1-1 raven with seeker missile?
Yes, and it's really strong. Also 1-1-1 using the raven to hit the mineral line is really nice too.
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Looks like fungal cant catch DT surprises anymore
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Well... blizzard has released PTR patches and didn't implement in actual game before right?
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On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building.
That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up.
The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga).
This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance.
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On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you.
because of inherent greediness
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3815 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:38 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 07:03 freetgy wrote:On November 24 2012 05:58 Ameisenmann wrote:On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. You really think you can just put spore crawlers everywhere to the point that there's no more spots to warp in stuff? I don't think so. well terran is investing in more than that to fend off muta harass, but saccingg 0.5-1k of your 5k banked to make your base Warpprism proof is too much? spores are already the cheapest building. That's not the problem. Zergs don't give a shit about money once they have 5k in the bank because it means they already have the deathball and are just making a forest of spine and slowly pushing. Losing infestation pit and GS is a pain in the ass but it only prevents from pushing until the structure is back up. The problem is that, at the moment, zergs are sacrificing everything to get to the deathball and can't afford 5 spines/spores at each bases. That's why they die to pre-broodlord push or get bullied by WP harass until they either die or just survive and get the deathball anyways (see DRG vs Rain on Antiga). This change for WP/sentries will just mean that Protoss will kill zergs in the exact same way as they are right now only easier and that zergs will have to turtle even harder. It won't change the core design problem of the match-up, just it's balance.
There is no way Protoss has infrastructure off of 3 base to do a killing-blow warp in with a Warp Prism. Expect 4-7 units tops. Hardly unkillable considering at the time of a midgame all-in you should still have plenty of non-BL units.
And by the way, the balance of the matchup needs to be changed, not just the design.
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On November 24 2012 08:48 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 05:15 shockaslim wrote:
Why don't zergs just invest in spore crawlers if they want to stop warp prism harrass in the late game? The bank in the late game is massive.....its not going to kill you. because of inherent greediness
because if you wanted to stop warp prism harass so that no way in hell they could get in you would need 20+ at each base, which btw is a lot specially when you have 4 bases or so.
Zergs do put spore crawlers, but it's not very feasible to expect zergs to put a spore everywhere in their base so that a warp prism is killed no matter what lol.
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EPT
