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On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game.
Agreed.
Problem is how can they buff the Hydra?
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On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game.
That "all around unit", the hydralisk costs 50 gas pr unit and does a lot less damage for the gas it costs than a round of infested terrans from an infestor. It can burrow, but it is too slow outside of creep and can`t move while burrowed like the roach.
Blizzard wants to change something? Reduce the cost of the Hydralisk to 25 gas and maybe it would be a decent unit, but as it stands the unit is just a vespene sink. You`d have to be stupid to build a hydralisk for 50 gas a pop when you can instead grab an infestor for 150 gas that comes with spells and added utilities (burrow move) while giving comparable anti air for energy(free).
They could always inflate the gas price of the infestor and keep it as it is to make the hydra more appealing instead of this stupid deal with immunities. It only makes the game appear convoluted and makes no sense from both a player and a spectator standpoint.
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Thats what Z always wanted. A viable Hydra mid to lategame. But this wont happen. There is just no way to buff the Hydra without making them
a) ridiculously overpowered in early midgame
b) just a T2 Roach
c) still not viable as Colossi/Tanks just shred them no matter what composition
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I miss the daily blue posts during early beta from Browder and Kim 
I hope we didn't scare them off
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On November 23 2012 22:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:I miss the daily blue posts during early beta from Browder and Kim I hope we didn't scare them off
They're probably still making decisions on how to change old units, as well as examining data about the new ones.
I'm sure once they have something to tell us, we'll know.
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On November 23 2012 22:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:I miss the daily blue posts during early beta from Browder and Kim I hope we didn't scare them off
Turkey Day has placed them in a food coma. They will recover some time next week.
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On November 23 2012 22:22 Charon1979 wrote:
Thats what Z always wanted. A viable Hydra mid to lategame. But this wont happen. There is just no way to buff the Hydra without making them
a) ridiculously overpowered in early midgame
b) just a T2 Roach
c) still not viable as Colossi/Tanks just shred them no matter what composition
and whats wrong with a tier 2 roach? So long as they had comparable costs but different utilities then they`d have different roles. The hydra for instance would if given comparable costs to the roach still have a range advantage which makes it good for anti air and small scale defensive combat, but the roach would still be beefier, have better speed outside of creep and comes with burrowed movement for ambushes and skirmishes with ling support.
Right now the infested terran is cheaper than a roach and the infestor itself eclipses the roach and the hydra in every respect. the immunities and balance changes proposed so far will not change this and Zerg in WOL will always have a huge infestor backbone even if the utility of fungal growth is reduced.
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On November 23 2012 22:12 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game. Agreed. Problem is how can they buff the Hydra?
T1 basic ranged unit that costs 75/25/1 and has a movespeed upgrade. Something like that.
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On November 23 2012 22:22 Charon1979 wrote:
Thats what Z always wanted. A viable Hydra mid to lategame. But this wont happen. There is just no way to buff the Hydra without making them
a) ridiculously overpowered in early midgame
b) just a T2 Roach
c) still not viable as Colossi/Tanks just shred them no matter what composition
Disagree. Tune down the roach slightly so that it NEEDS damage support oncw the armies get bigger.
Leave T2 Hydra as it is but with a speedupgrade with same apeed as roaches.
Then buff lategame hydra with Hive upgrade (like +2range) and/or better upgrade scaling.
You still need something as buffer (roach/hydra still better than hydra) but it's going to be mostly hydras and you might even want ultras in the endgame.
To deal with tanks and colossi in big numbers, broodlords still exist!
Roach/Hydra/Infestor Test Map on EU if you want to try it.
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I don't like the fungal change because it affects warp prisms and sentries. If they can remove them from the list somehow, I think it's a pretty good change.
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:12 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game. Agreed. Problem is how can they buff the Hydra?
Lair tech hydra speed would be really cool. Might have to tone down the roach a bit, but that would definitely be an improvement over what z has now.
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On November 23 2012 22:27 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 22:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:I miss the daily blue posts during early beta from Browder and Kim I hope we didn't scare them off They're probably still making decisions on how to change old units, as well as examining data about the new ones. I'm sure once they have something to tell us, we'll know.
they need to sit down with Boxer, White-Ra and Nada im sure they have great ideas about balance
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On November 23 2012 21:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:03 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:54 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:49 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:46 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:35 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
[quote]
ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that! You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ? Yes. Go on, quote me on them being "unstoppable". Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it. It might be too hard to stop reliably. Like 1-1-1, was very hard to stop reliably. Like Broodlord/Infestor is very hard to stop reliably. Like 5rax reaper was very hard to stop reliably. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable. You don't give any clue why it might be too hard to stop reliably. It's not, you don't need infestors to stop DT's, you never did, you just relied on that because it was better to spend your resources on a unit that can do everything than getting reliable detection + using different control groups and leaving supply behind to defeat harass, but slow down you getting to deathball. The whole purpose of every infestor/zerg change, should be free'ing roles from the infestor. If the zerg needs a buff elsewhere, go for it. But changing the current PvZ is something I as a watcher really want to, and doing TEST balance maps and people actually playtesting them instead of talking about on forums can give better feedback. OK, let's only listen to the people who have posted replays of the testmap to back up their claims. Oh wait, that's only me... Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 03:45 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 03:08 aZealot wrote:
So much Zerg qq...
Any more feedback from people who have actually played the map? Specifically Protoss?
Most of the feedback thus far, and it's a little thin on the ground, appears to be Terran. Well, I'm not good with Protoss, but I'm experimenting with DT Prism in ZvP. Basically they all die to losing a crucial base at some point, but it's nonsense, they all have no clue how to deal with it or don't even know that fungal doesn't work against DT/Prism any longer... I guess this will need a few months of Pro-Testing until we know what is possible and what isn't. Still gonna post the replays, to show you what I mean... http://drop.sc/277836http://drop.sc/277835http://drop.sc/277834http://drop.sc/277833http://drop.sc/277832 And two more played a few hours ago. I haven't lost yet with this build yet, which still means nothing, as I'm just a master Z (and probably around Master T) offracing against diamond Zergs. (And even more it means nothing, because this is just some Prism+DT rush build that transitions into more Prism+DT play, but it's the most reliable way to get to what I want to try so I choose it) http://drop.sc/277998http://drop.sc/277997
Can you play against masters Zergs and post up replays?
Not saying you have to win those games. Just have to do terrible terrible damage (with speedprism + dts) against players that would normally handle speedprisms without the nerf to FG.
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On November 23 2012 23:14 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 21:03 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:54 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:49 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:46 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:35 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting)
Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess...
[quote]
Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that! You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ? Yes. Go on, quote me on them being "unstoppable". Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it. It might be too hard to stop reliably. Like 1-1-1, was very hard to stop reliably. Like Broodlord/Infestor is very hard to stop reliably. Like 5rax reaper was very hard to stop reliably. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable. You don't give any clue why it might be too hard to stop reliably. It's not, you don't need infestors to stop DT's, you never did, you just relied on that because it was better to spend your resources on a unit that can do everything than getting reliable detection + using different control groups and leaving supply behind to defeat harass, but slow down you getting to deathball. The whole purpose of every infestor/zerg change, should be free'ing roles from the infestor. If the zerg needs a buff elsewhere, go for it. But changing the current PvZ is something I as a watcher really want to, and doing TEST balance maps and people actually playtesting them instead of talking about on forums can give better feedback. OK, let's only listen to the people who have posted replays of the testmap to back up their claims. Oh wait, that's only me... On November 23 2012 03:45 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 03:08 aZealot wrote:
So much Zerg qq...
Any more feedback from people who have actually played the map? Specifically Protoss?
Most of the feedback thus far, and it's a little thin on the ground, appears to be Terran. Well, I'm not good with Protoss, but I'm experimenting with DT Prism in ZvP. Basically they all die to losing a crucial base at some point, but it's nonsense, they all have no clue how to deal with it or don't even know that fungal doesn't work against DT/Prism any longer... I guess this will need a few months of Pro-Testing until we know what is possible and what isn't. Still gonna post the replays, to show you what I mean... http://drop.sc/277836http://drop.sc/277835http://drop.sc/277834http://drop.sc/277833http://drop.sc/277832 And two more played a few hours ago. I haven't lost yet with this build yet, which still means nothing, as I'm just a master Z (and probably around Master T) offracing against diamond Zergs. (And even more it means nothing, because this is just some Prism+DT rush build that transitions into more Prism+DT play, but it's the most reliable way to get to what I want to try so I choose it) http://drop.sc/277998http://drop.sc/277997 Can you play against masters Zergs and post up replays? Not saying you have to win those games. Just have to do terrible terrible damage (with speedprism + dts) against players that would normally handle speedprisms without the nerf to FG.
I would but I havent found one yet. Apart from one, when I forgot my first canon...
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On November 23 2012 22:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 22:22 Charon1979 wrote:
Thats what Z always wanted. A viable Hydra mid to lategame. But this wont happen. There is just no way to buff the Hydra without making them
a) ridiculously overpowered in early midgame
b) just a T2 Roach
c) still not viable as Colossi/Tanks just shred them no matter what composition Disagree. Tune down the roach slightly so that it NEEDS damage support oncw the armies get bigger.
Leave T2 Hydra as it is but with a speedupgrade with same apeed as roaches.Then buff lategame hydra with Hive upgrade (like +2range) and/or better upgrade scaling. You still need something as buffer (roach/hydra still better than hydra) but it's going to be mostly hydras and you might even want ultras in the endgame. To deal with tanks and colossi in big numbers, broodlords still exist! Roach/Hydra/Infestor Test Map on EU if you want to try it.
That's exactly what i'm thinking. Hydras have a ton of dps but are to slow to make up for their low HP. Hydra back stabs, drops, surrounds, etc would be much more fun then infestor balls.
On November 23 2012 22:19 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game. That "all around unit", the hydralisk costs 50 gas pr unit and does a lot less damage for the gas it costs than a round of infested terrans from an infestor.
That's because mass ITs is OP in all MUs.
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So far, feel like good changes. Basically prevent Zerg from rushing to broods on the strength of infestors (#1 problem), and also help out late-game toss vs. zerg.
It'll take a few weeks before Zerg stop playing the same way (relying on mass infestors to defend tons of bases with no army), but hopefully this stabilizes with Zerg either playing an aggressive muta mid-game, or delaying broods by a few minutes to be safe.
-Cross
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On November 23 2012 22:22 Charon1979 wrote:
Thats what Z always wanted. A viable Hydra mid to lategame. But this wont happen. There is just no way to buff the Hydra without making them
a) ridiculously overpowered in early midgame
b) just a T2 Roach
c) still not viable as Colossi/Tanks just shred them no matter what composition
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383354¤tpage=62#1237
I think most Zerg players can agree that the Infestor it it's current state is too powerful but by nerfing it you have to fix the holes that the Infestor had been filling in the Zerg arsenal. Hydralisk makes the most sense to me.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:12 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game. Agreed. Problem is how can they buff the Hydra?
They already did, it's called the viper. It's a support unit that makes hydra compositions MUCH more viable through abduction and blinding cloud. Not everything exists in a vacuum where the only way to make unit A more useful is to buff unit A. Sometimes you can buff unit B to make unit A better as long as A and B synergize well with one another.
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On November 23 2012 23:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 22:12 FakeDeath wrote:On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ.
And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game. Agreed. Problem is how can they buff the Hydra? They already did, it's called the viper. It's a support unit that makes hydra compositions MUCH more viable through abduction and blinding cloud. Not everything exists in a vacuum where the only way to make unit A more useful is to buff unit A. Sometimes you can buff unit B to make unit A better as long as A and B synergize well with one another.
So the viper is going to be introduced for the next four months of WoL?
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On November 24 2012 00:14 Purple Haze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 23:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 23 2012 22:12 FakeDeath wrote:On November 23 2012 21:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up. I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game. Agreed. Problem is how can they buff the Hydra? They already did, it's called the viper. It's a support unit that makes hydra compositions MUCH more viable through abduction and blinding cloud. Not everything exists in a vacuum where the only way to make unit A more useful is to buff unit A. Sometimes you can buff unit B to make unit A better as long as A and B synergize well with one another. So the viper is going to be introduced for the next four months of WoL?
Except the Infestors and Ravens, they probably won't change anything in WoL buddy.
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EPT
