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On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... .
ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased.
PvZ is just painful to watch. You saw 1 protoss all'in, and 1 deathball vortex wars, and you already saw them all. When you see people cheering for some PvZ, is mostly because they hate inmortal all'ins and it got stopped, or because the protoss won against broodlords with some pre-hive timing.
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots.
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On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased.
Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting)
Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess...
On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots.
Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs...
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Jesus Christ what a load of garbage I'm reading.
The poll for infestor change seems pretty mixed. What are people's opinions on this change? Not enough? overkill?
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On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs...
Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running.
About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point).
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Smaller radius by 0.5, quite fast projectile and dealing 35 (45 to Armored units) damage over 4 seconds with 80 percent slowdown. Fungalïssimo! 
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On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point).
Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that!
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On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build.
I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse.
Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly.
As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs?
Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no?
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On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that!
You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ?
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On November 23 2012 20:35 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ.
And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that! You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ?
Yes. Go on, quote me on them being "unstoppable".
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On November 23 2012 20:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:35 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that! You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ? Yes. Go on, quote me on them being "unstoppable".
Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it.
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Has anyone played any games with the changes?
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On November 23 2012 20:49 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:46 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:35 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:[quote]
Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack.
Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that! You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ? Yes. Go on, quote me on them being "unstoppable". Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it.
It might be too hard to stop reliably. Like 1-1-1, was very hard to stop reliably. Like Broodlord/Infestor is very hard to stop reliably. Like 5rax reaper was very hard to stop reliably. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable.
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On November 23 2012 20:49 Godwrath wrote:
Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it.
Not being unstoppable doesn't mean that it is easy to stop.
Even though, I don't think that DTs will be hard to stop, your logic is flawed.
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On November 23 2012 20:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:49 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:46 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:35 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:
[quote]
Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies.
IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... . ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that! You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ? Yes. Go on, quote me on them being "unstoppable". Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it. It might be too hard to stop reliably. Like 1-1-1, was very hard to stop reliably. Like Broodlord/Infestor is very hard to stop reliably. Like 5rax reaper was very hard to stop reliably. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable.
You don't give any clue why it might be too hard to stop reliably. It's not, you don't need infestors to stop DT's, you never did, you just relied on that because it was better to spend your resources on a unit that can do everything than getting reliable detection + using different control groups and leaving supply behind to defeat harass, but slow down you getting to deathball.
The whole purpose of every infestor/zerg change, should be free'ing roles from the infestor. If the zerg needs a buff elsewhere, go for it. But changing the current PvZ is something I as a watcher really want to, and doing TEST balance maps and people actually playtesting them instead of talking about on forums can give better feedback.
On November 23 2012 21:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:49 Godwrath wrote:
Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it.
Not being unstoppable doesn't mean that it is easy to stop. Even though, I don't think that DTs will be hard to stop, your logic is flawed.
You got reliable ways to stop it withouth infestors. That's all that matters. Now go nitpick some more.
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On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no?
I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about:
Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses.
For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead.
If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up.
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Can someone tell me why Dark templar and Warp prism are psionic? I just dont understant.
DISCLAIMER this has nothing to do balance wise. I just thought psionic units usually have mana/cast spells/are psionic in lore.
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On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots.
Actually, they are basically invisible Zealots. The invisibility being the point of the unit. Quite different in other words. 
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On November 23 2012 21:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:54 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:49 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:46 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:35 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:31 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:28 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 20:14 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:
[quote]
TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far...
. ZvZ is a mirror match and nothing really impressive aside the early game. PvP is actually the same on that regard, but mind gaming/scouting is way more important than raw micro skill, which is normally harder for the average watcher to enjoy/understand. TvZ ? Anything that involves terran makes is good because how the terran plays, not because the zerg for the most part. TvT is the best matchup by far because multipronged attacks, different unit compositions, skirmishes happening on different parts and deathballing isn't really a good option there. You are just biased. Lol... I didn't say anywhere that TvT is worse... reading comprehension (though I do believe marineball wars and infinite siegeline battles aren't as interesting as PvT and TvZ; bio vs Mech and biomech on biomech on bigmaps is extremly exciting) Not anything involving Terran makes it good for me. Sorry, but Terran also produces a fuckton of build order wins (11/11, just to mention the most famous; hellions, unscouted gas allins vs Protoss, multiple 1base pushes in TvT, just to mention a few more), but whatever, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Well anybody who doesn't think ZvZ and ZvT are pretty watchable I guess... On November 23 2012 20:00 Godwrath wrote:
Edit - And by the way, i still don't understand how DT's will be a huge deal if fungal can't uncloack them. Are zealots a problem ? Because that's what they are, expensive zealots. Yeah, sorry not gonna discuss anything DT related, if you think they are just expensive Zealots. Basically you are declaring any progamer that uses DTs stupid, because they could just use zealots as well for everything they do with DTs... Nope, i am calling you stupid if you think DT's are unstoppable withouth fungal. DT's are overpriced zealots in the sense if your opponent does build detection, and you got free supply units that can fulfill that role. Dt's are just to capitalize on the lack of detectors of your opponent, for anything else, zealots are better, and zerg have an issue way to get that detection up and running. About the match ups. All of them you can scout them and after that there are reliable ways to stop it. If you don't understand to be able to enjoy the marine wars fighting on different places across the map and positional siege tank gameplay, is nothing else than personal taste (and being biased just to try to make a point). Did I say they are unstoppable. Please quote me on that! You are the guy who is being the "most vocal" about that DTs will be an issue right now. Right ? Yes. Go on, quote me on them being "unstoppable". Oh for christ's sake. If it isn't unstoppable where is the issue with it. It might be too hard to stop reliably. Like 1-1-1, was very hard to stop reliably. Like Broodlord/Infestor is very hard to stop reliably. Like 5rax reaper was very hard to stop reliably. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable. You don't give any clue why it might be too hard to stop reliably. It's not, you don't need infestors to stop DT's, you never did, you just relied on that because it was better to spend your resources on a unit that can do everything than getting reliable detection + using different control groups and leaving supply behind to defeat harass, but slow down you getting to deathball. The whole purpose of every infestor/zerg change, should be free'ing roles from the infestor. If the zerg needs a buff elsewhere, go for it. But changing the current PvZ is something I as a watcher really want to, and doing TEST balance maps and people actually playtesting them instead of talking about on forums can give better feedback.
OK, let's only listen to the people who have posted replays of the testmap to back up their claims. Oh wait, that's only me...
On November 23 2012 03:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 03:08 aZealot wrote:
So much Zerg qq...
Any more feedback from people who have actually played the map? Specifically Protoss?
Most of the feedback thus far, and it's a little thin on the ground, appears to be Terran. Well, I'm not good with Protoss, but I'm experimenting with DT Prism in ZvP. Basically they all die to losing a crucial base at some point, but it's nonsense, they all have no clue how to deal with it or don't even know that fungal doesn't work against DT/Prism any longer... I guess this will need a few months of Pro-Testing until we know what is possible and what isn't. Still gonna post the replays, to show you what I mean... http://drop.sc/277836http://drop.sc/277835http://drop.sc/277834http://drop.sc/277833http://drop.sc/277832
And two more played a few hours ago. I haven't lost yet with this build yet, which still means nothing, as I'm just a master Z (and probably around Master T) offracing against diamond Zergs. (And even more it means nothing, because this is just some Prism+DT rush build that transitions into more Prism+DT play, but it's the most reliable way to get to what I want to try so I choose it)
http://drop.sc/277998
http://drop.sc/277997
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On November 23 2012 21:08 Veriol wrote:
Can someone tell me why Dark templar and Warp prism are psionic? I just dont understant.
DISCLAIMER this has nothing to do balance wise. I just thought psionic units usually have mana/cast spells/are psionic in lore. High templars use their psionic powers to cast psi storms and whatever spell they have available. Dark templars use their psionic powers to cloak (and create their 45 damage blades). Unlike ghosts, they can sustain the cloaking indefinitely, so they don't need energy in game.
Not sure about the warp prism.
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On November 23 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 20:32 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 18:57 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes. TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far... ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units. No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with. Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility. And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles). Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup. It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals. Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build. I think TvZ is a lot worse since the queen change. While indirect, that change allows Zerg to mass infestors and show the true power of the unit. Do you like having Infestors be the answer to almost everything? It remainds me of Ghosts being the answer to all T3 Zerg, but a lot worse. Right now they can delay attacks, harras, kill all forms of harras, kill low HP units, kill air units, punish clumps of units, even kill some max out mech and Protoss armies with IT. All of this on an energy based unit with great survivability. Is this the only way that Zerg can compete? If so, then that should be fixed, but having one unit to do it all is rubbish mate, i'm sorry. Balance aside, it's just ugly. As far as the templar warp prism attack, well, it's supposed to be powerful... the fact that you can kill all that using the same unit that's going to win you the big fight (and makes you favorite in that fight) is not fair, IMO. How many times have we seen a bunch of infestors taking out Terran expansions or killing 20+ workers in 4 FGs? Like is said, taking roles away from the Infestor is the correct way of balancing it, instead of just nerfing the spells. I mean, the unit should be GREAT at SOME things, not great or even good at ALL things. Casters are support units no? I think we are on the same boat. However, those are the things that I think about: Zerg has multiple midgame techs, and usually goes for either mutas or infestors. Why? Because they fill roles that the units zerg can already build (zerglings, roaches, banelings) cannot fulfill. If you completly take away roles, you open up more possibilities for BO-losses. For example: Why is Terran early/mid game really interesting too watch? Because marines+scans have the potential to beat everything. There is no choice to be made that might just lose you the game. However, clever DT/banshee usage, good mutalisk play and many other things still work and can do damage to the Terran. This is what makes games good, if people have the capabilities to deal with everything, but it depends on their execution, who comes out ahead. If Infestors are good at those things it's fine, we still see a lot of harass against Infestorplayers, zerg still needs many other things like spines and spores. That is not the problem. The problem is that on top of that, Infestors are amongst the top3 combat units in the game per supply vs ground and air and therefore they are not just there to fill roles, they also just beat most armies straight up.
I agree with you, and from "can handle most things" and "it's very strong in some situations" i wish the Infestor would be "just" the latter, like Ghosts, HT, Raves. I guess the solution is, or could be, the Hidra as an all round unit for the mid game.
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