EPTso keep that in mind before terran also loses all hope between early and lategame if you give Z a stronger midgame.
Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 71
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
so keep that in mind before terran also loses all hope between early and lategame if you give Z a stronger midgame. | ||
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:40 Naphal wrote: the nerf is by no means big enough to warrant immediate compensation, at least in ZvT, i agree that ZvP may be a different story (because "psionic" protoss units are not exactly rare) so keep that in mind before terran also loses all hope between early and lategame if you give Z a stronger midgame. That was actually the logic I applied when proposing what is, imo, a more logical nerf to the Infestor. The problem isn't "Infestors are too good against Psionic units" it's "The Infestor is too good as a general purpose unit and makes the Zerg late-game composition too powerful in its current form". Blizzard's proposed changes address both of these issues in some form but have other consequences that are not made up for in the current balance iteration. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
Solution: Play Terran where you can go Marine/Tank/Medivac at all game stages since beta, which never will be boring because its Marines + Support -or Solution: Play Protoss where you can go Zealot/Stalker/Colossus since beta, wich never will be boring because its colossi + Meatshield | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:29 Ramiz1989 wrote: Except the Infestors and Ravens, they probably won't change anything in WoL buddy. I think he was being sarcastic..lol | ||
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Solarist
291 Posts
On November 24 2012 01:05 Charon1979 wrote: Problem: Infestor too stronk, Zerg Deathball the same every Match and thus boring Solution: Play Terran where you can go Marine/Tank/Medivac at all game stages since beta, which never will be boring because its Marines + Support -or Solution: Play Protoss where you can go Zealot/Stalker/Colossus since beta, wich never will be boring because its colossi + Meatshield And get raped by Zerg deathball  | ||
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PhReNeTik
Spain9 Posts
U can't stop them.... then attack before 10 minutes mark and u'll never see BL. | ||
Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:29 PhReNeTik wrote: BL+infestor is the consecuence of a bad metagame: 3CC and 3rd nexus first. That's all. U can't stop them.... then attack before 10 minutes mark and u'll never see BL. We like to call this "all-in every game." | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:29 PhReNeTik wrote: BL+infestor is the consecuence of a bad metagame: 3CC and 3rd nexus first. That's all. U can't stop them.... then attack before 10 minutes mark and u'll never see BL. People started doing very greedy opening azgainst zerg because blizzard basicly nerfed or buffed a lot of thing to prevent T/P from killing Z early 3 OC TvZ is MAINLY because of Queen buff making any 2 base timing sucking. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
If like the 95% of the Sc2 players want the root removed, then why is Blizzards not removing it??? Why not take the chance to improve the unit design quality? | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:29 PhReNeTik wrote: BL+infestor is the consecuence of a bad metagame: 3CC and 3rd nexus first. That's all. U can't stop them.... then attack before 10 minutes mark and u'll never see BL. This is just so much metagame progress ignorance in just one post. | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
is attacking before every base is mined out considered an all in aswell? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:42 MisterTea wrote: is attacking before every base is mined out considered an all in aswell? Nope. Protoss attacks before 10 minutes definitely are, though. At least the kinds that would do damage. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
so far these are my conclusions: tvz: exactly the same pretty much tvp: i want to say it's the same but, i think this change has potential. theorcrafting, if you already make ghosts on 3 -4 base vs protoss why not make ravens earlier. if you can EMP all of the templar, HSM kills everything. marines cost only minerals and instead of making double medivacs all game from 9:30 until we die why not try raven? so far it has been unsuccessful but i am chobo tvt: exactly the same, i got to use HSM at like 9 or 10 min game clock on a drop though which was weird and awkward for both of us zvt: feels pretty much the same.. i dont feel more scared of raven or ghost, i like mutalisks in the midgame too anyways, so by the time he has enough of these units out he has taken so much damage trying to go for them that it is often faceroll + rally time. there doesn't seem to be a good time to build ghosts in tvz right now, from 1:00-10:00 you are getting up your 3 bases and harassing with hellion banshee, from 10:00 - 14:00 you are bunkering up and waiting for a bigger tank count + 2/2 so you can go push him, from 14:00-18:00 you are defending a hive tech counter and taking a 4th, when do you start ghosts? it seems like if you cut units from any point in here zerg will know and kill your or you will be unable to punish zerg taking a lot of bases. zvp: not the same, warp prisms are way stronger if the user has high APM. queens are so fucking slow i cannot explain how frustrating this change is. this change need sot be reverted or thought out in a better way, because currently i am still fungaling the shit out of protoss armies and getting like 8 stalkers at a time and meanwhile cannot defend against warp prisms.. all of the stupid crap about fungal still is here but now warp prism is a bit better and zerg can no longer make miraculous comebacks by landing chain fungals on the sentryball. warp prism + DT harass is extremely strong now in the lategame although when i really think about it, i should have just made to kill it. even after all of this, i still am winning if i sit there over my 4th base, suck all the resources out of it and then slowly take more and more bases with broodlord support, adding to my deathball. you still can take zero risks with a BL/INF/Corruptor army and just harvest one base at a time, maybe doing some ling harass and stuff, but ultimately infestors are still serving pretty much all roles you need them to in this MU. archons, templar and sentries aren't going to be blinking in and sniping my broods any time soon, but stalkers, voids and carriers might try and fungal + IT still manhandles all of these things zvz: still retarded, it was weird tnot being able to fungal my opponent's infestors if they clump them, but i rarely get that opportunity vs decent players anyways so i wont miss it too much conclusion: FG change is big in pvz for harass, but deathballing is still viable and pretty much still the best way to play against protoss. fungal still locks stalkers, zealot clumps, air units, and IT are still extremely durable in shell form and have broken DPS, warp prisms are potentially "broken" now but to be honest if they want to even out the brokenness of infestor broodlord with this it's not a bad choice. Terran HSM change is stupid, lol. i dont understand this change, it seems more aimed at casual players rather than GM or professional players because HSM range is very low.. HSM still waste of money unless you are on like 3 more bases than your opponent and dont want to even have a chance of losing. even then, more tanks marines and marauders are generally better. zerg still has many opportunities to get extremely far ahead in early ZvT with speedling builds or with just defending a marine poke out or timing well and droning behind it. late game, ghosts still dont seem like a viable option and neither I nor my opponents felt that we had the time to make them in our games because we would die if we did. Fungal continues to affect groups of marines, vikings and tanks and serves the role it did in the past. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On November 24 2012 01:05 Charon1979 wrote: Problem: Infestor too stronk, Zerg Deathball the same every Match and thus boring Solution: Play Terran where you can go Marine/Tank/Medivac at all game stages since beta, which never will be boring because its Marines + Support -or Solution: Play Protoss where you can go Zealot/Stalker/Colossus since beta, wich never will be boring because its colossi + Meatshield xD User was warned for this post | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
- The fact you can't fungal warp prisms feels weird although I'm not sure it's a problem. I can't imagine the best zerg players in the world really struggling against DT drops; with lots of spores and spines at each expansion (which is already the norm) quite often what happens is that even if a hatchery gets sniped it's not cost effective in terms of what's destoryed and the zerg player can just rebuild the hatchery; all that a hatchery snipe accomplishes is a marginal reduction in the size of the zerg's bank. - I would have like to have seen infested terrans nerfed. Perhaps the HP of the eggs should be as it is in HoTS (50 instead of 100). Buffing ghosts and HT though indirectly combats this problems since T and P will have a way to actually lower infestors' energy. - I think lowering the cost of HSM to 100 might have been a bigger buff and really changed the entire dynamic of tvz late game. I like the change, which will make transititioning to ravens easier. It will be really cool, if these changes are implemented, to see ghosts and ravens actually used in TVZ. The TvZ late game seems boring and feels unfair to Terran. These changes definitely will help. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:58 The_Darkness wrote: I generally like these changes. A few thoughts: - The fact you can't fungal warp prisms feels weird although I'm not sure it's a problem. I can't imagine the best zerg players in the world really struggling against DT drops; with lots of spores and spines at each expansion (which is already the norm) quite often what happens is that even if a hatchery gets sniped it's not cost effective in terms of what's destoryed and the zerg player can just rebuild the hatchery; all that a hatchery snipe accomplishes is a marginal reduction in the size of the zerg's bank. - I would have like to have seen infested terrans nerfed. Perhaps the HP of the eggs should be as it is in HoTS (50 instead of 100). Buffing ghosts and HT though indirectly combats this problems since T and P will have a way to actually lower infestors' energy. - I think lowering the cost of HSM to 100 might have been a bigger buff and really changed the entire dynamic of tvz late game. I like the change, which will make transititioning to ravens easier. It will be really cool, if these changes are implemented, to see ghosts and ravens actually used in TVZ. The TvZ late game seems boring and feels unfair to Terran. These changes definitely will help. i agree with all of your points here except the first point. think about it this way. what if the prism stays in phase mode and units try to come kill the DTS? i lift them all off and now he has to kill a prism with gravity(I dont know the word for it) boosters without fungal. thats pretty hard with queens, and you can just come back, unload directly on a queen and gank it with the DTS, then lift and get away quickly its adding a whole new dimension to warp prism play now that you cannot stun the prisms | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:47 c0sm0naut wrote: Ive played around 20 games as every race option so far in the test map, (vs master / gm and sometimes random if i didnt have players to play with), i am master and random in NA so far these are my conclusions: tvz: exactly the same pretty much tvp: i want to say it's the same but, i think this change has potential. theorcrafting, if you already make ghosts on 3 -4 base vs protoss why not make ravens earlier. if you can EMP all of the templar, HSM kills everything. marines cost only minerals and instead of making double medivacs all game from 9:30 until we die why not try raven? so far it has been unsuccessful but i am chobo tvt: exactly the same, i got to use HSM at like 9 or 10 min game clock on a drop though which was weird and awkward for both of us zvt: feels pretty much the same.. i dont feel more scared of raven or ghost, i like mutalisks in the midgame too anyways, so by the time he has enough of these units out he has taken so much damage trying to go for them that it is often faceroll + rally time. there doesn't seem to be a good time to build ghosts in tvz right now, from 1:00-10:00 you are getting up your 3 bases and harassing with hellion banshee, from 10:00 - 14:00 you are bunkering up and waiting for a bigger tank count + 2/2 so you can go push him, from 14:00-18:00 you are defending a hive tech counter and taking a 4th, when do you start ghosts? it seems like if you cut units from any point in here zerg will know and kill your or you will be unable to punish zerg taking a lot of bases. zvp: not the same, warp prisms are way stronger if the user has high APM. queens are so fucking slow i cannot explain how frustrating this change is. this change need sot be reverted or thought out in a better way, because currently i am still fungaling the shit out of protoss armies and getting like 8 stalkers at a time and meanwhile cannot defend against warp prisms.. all of the stupid crap about fungal still is here but now warp prism is a bit better and zerg can no longer make miraculous comebacks by landing chain fungals on the sentryball. warp prism + DT harass is extremely strong now in the lategame although when i really think about it, i should have just made to kill it. even after all of this, i still am winning if i sit there over my 4th base, suck all the resources out of it and then slowly take more and more bases with broodlord support, adding to my deathball. you still can take zero risks with a BL/INF/Corruptor army and just harvest one base at a time, maybe doing some ling harass and stuff, but ultimately infestors are still serving pretty much all roles you need them to in this MU. archons, templar and sentries aren't going to be blinking in and sniping my broods any time soon, but stalkers, voids and carriers might try and fungal + IT still manhandles all of these things zvz: still retarded, it was weird tnot being able to fungal my opponent's infestors if they clump them, but i rarely get that opportunity vs decent players anyways so i wont miss it too much conclusion: FG change is big in pvz for harass, but deathballing is still viable and pretty much still the best way to play against protoss. fungal still locks stalkers, zealot clumps, air units, and IT are still extremely durable in shell form and have broken DPS, warp prisms are potentially "broken" now but to be honest if they want to even out the brokenness of infestor broodlord with this it's not a bad choice. Terran HSM change is stupid, lol. i dont understand this change, it seems more aimed at casual players rather than GM or professional players because HSM range is very low.. HSM still waste of money unless you are on like 3 more bases than your opponent and dont want to even have a chance of losing. even then, more tanks marines and marauders are generally better. zerg still has many opportunities to get extremely far ahead in early ZvT with speedling builds or with just defending a marine poke out or timing well and droning behind it. late game, ghosts still dont seem like a viable option and neither I nor my opponents felt that we had the time to make them in our games because we would die if we did. Fungal continues to affect groups of marines, vikings and tanks and serves the role it did in the past. Interesting, although obviously we'll have to wait for pros to try it out to see how it goes. Hopefully they're inviting the best in the world to try it out. It's nice that Blizzard lets everyone try out the changes and solicits their feedback but I hope for the sake of the game at a high level that players like Life, Creator, Leenock, Innovation, MKP, etc. are trying these changes out to see whether it's balanced, and that their input and results will count 1000x more than the input and results from other sources. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:47 c0sm0naut wrote: conclusion: FG change is big in pvz for harass, but deathballing is still viable and pretty much still the best way to play against protoss. fungal still locks stalkers, zealot clumps, air units, and IT are still extremely durable in shell form and have broken DPS, warp prisms are potentially "broken" now but to be honest if they want to even out the brokenness of infestor broodlord with this it's not a bad choice. well said sir. i am looking forward to this newly-strengthened harass play opportunity if it stays. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
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Garoodah
United States56 Posts
Terran has literally done the same thing since the beginning of sc2 in the lategame, marine medivac tank. Zergs have changed their lategame composition serveral times, and all of the strategies work in a individual ways. The problem is not lategame, its letting zergs get to lategame unharmed. All-ins and 2 base strategies aside, every terran/protoss that I play sits in there base until 9-11 minutes and just lets me do whatever I want to. I can rush to lair tech easily and be starting hive before most protoss get to my base when this happens. Turtle terrans do not win games against good players! Neither does a 3 base protoss when you let me get to 5 base as a zerg. Protoss have at least semi figured out that pushing into a zerg as they are morphing greater spire can win games. Terrans have learned to split their armies and drop during big engagements, as well as some incredibly positioning with tanks. Players dont need to have direct engagements to win against zergs, unless people have forgotten to base race? It happens fairly often in zvp with mutas. Zergs have always been the a-move and win race. This was incredibly easy to exploit 6 months ago when ling infestor was only starting to gain popularity. The one main point Id like anyone to take away from this. If you let a zerg just sit back and drone, he will always get ahead. Do more pressure in the early game and you will find yourself in a much better position for the mid and late game. If a zerg is unable to saturate bases and defend against aggression then the zerg will always end up behind in the mid game, and then its the T/P's job to get farther ahead before the late game. Warp prisms and drops are one of these ways. Suicide some marines or zealots while pushing a zergs base on the other side of its bases. Youll do damage in one or even both places. | ||
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