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On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack.
Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game.
Certainly it would delay lategame deathball for Z, but it would also delay toss deathball to invest the minerals + robo time into warp prism. Not to mention the fact that they have to leave open supply to warp in anything.
Honestly, from what I've seen, warp prism harass usually comes -after- BL/infestor is on the field. This is in order to take advantage of Broodlord's immobility, I suspect.
On November 23 2012 18:21 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:20 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 18:15 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 18:12 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 17:54 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:22 DwarfTherapist wrote:
It really tickles me that we have protoss players complaining about deathballs.
This coming from the race that 4gated or just made collosus for almost 2 years Are you going to start posting things that makes sense anytime soon or are you just going to spout out a bunch of nonesense that is not relevant to the discussion whatsoever? ZvP is in a really bad spot right now and it needs to be changed, strats you lost to in whatever league you are in 2 years ago should not be relevant to the discussion whatsoever. I'm getting really tired of seeing broodlord infestor turtle every single lategame PvZ, and i hope these changes will give zergs the kick in the backside they need to start exploring different strats. Whatever happened to Symbols Ultra infestor baneling strat vs protoss? I remember it completely wrecking people not a season or 2 ago, doesn't it have potential? Sigh, games only broken when zerg's in a decent position? Not so fun when you have this impending time bomb ticking away.. You held that position and won games off the back of it for years. I play T so don't really benefit from anything here, but it's just funny seeing toss get frustrated over another race having lategame ability. personally I'll be fine if fungal doesn't destroy my ghosts, more incentive to use an already brilliant unit. Seems a little over the top though. Do you really play T? Ghosts are hardly a "brilliant" unit in TvZ. Overall, they are a brilliant unit. If they are become less vulnerable in TvZ, i'd surely try using them in that mu again, wouldn't you? .. please stop derailing thread with matchups that don't involve Z. TvZ doesn't involve Z. I actually giggled.
Yes, overall involves TvT, and TvP which are not relevant.
Ghosts are pretty trash in TvZ.
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Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game.
Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies.
IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes.
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Plogamer, i have a feeling you're very tired or drunk, so i won't force anything more from you right now, doesn't seem fair.
Suffice to say that asking zergs to spend midgame gas to protect against a purely throwaway mineral investment is a little unfair. Enough mutas to actually dispatch a prism in a timely fashion is a huge money-supply sink.
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On November 23 2012 18:14 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:09 Corrosive wrote:On November 23 2012 17:54 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:22 DwarfTherapist wrote:
It really tickles me that we have protoss players complaining about deathballs.
This coming from the race that 4gated or just made collosus for almost 2 years Are you going to start posting things that makes sense anytime soon or are you just going to spout out a bunch of nonesense that is not relevant to the discussion whatsoever? ZvP is in a really bad spot right now and it needs to be changed, strats you lost to in whatever league you are in 2 years ago should not be relevant to the discussion whatsoever. I'm getting really tired of seeing broodlord infestor turtle every single lategame PvZ, and i hope these changes will give zergs the kick in the backside they need to start exploring different strats. Whatever happened to Symbols Ultra infestor baneling strat vs protoss? I remember it completely wrecking people not a season or 2 ago, doesn't it have potential? Sigh, games only broken when zerg's in a decent position? Not so fun when you have this impending time bomb ticking away.. You held that position and won games off the back of it for years. I play T so don't really benefit from anything here, but it's just funny seeing toss get frustrated over another race having lategame ability. personally I'll be fine if fungal doesn't destroy my ghosts, more incentive to use an already brilliant unit. Seems a little over the top though. Lets just say zerg is super overpowered as an example im going to make: are you saying it's okay for zerg to be OP because (in your eyes) protoss was op in the same way 2 years ago? Not at all, however blizzard themselves have stated there doesn't seem to be any balance issues, and they have a lot more data than a couple of diamond protss players! Stop implying it was "two years ago". it's been that way FOR two years. Blizz are literally caving in to the players here, which is a huge slippery slope. "we think the game is fine, but we'll do this for you guys if you'll stop whining". Unfortunately this thing is more of a floodgate than stemming a tide.
Blizzard responsibile for balancig the game states that game is balanced. Thats like company saying that prodcut they are selling is good.
Also Blizzard stated that they don see problem with race representation in tournaments when Terran is practically extinct in pro scene outside of Korea.
Blizzard also said that snipe was little too strong and then reduce its damage by 40% across the board.
So i would not take too seriously what Blizzard is saying.
Also i would rank Protoss as least succesfull race in SC2 up to this point.
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On November 23 2012 18:34 DwarfTherapist wrote:
Plogamer, i have a feeling you're very tired or drunk, so i won't force anything more from you right now, doesn't seem fair.
Suffice to say that asking zergs to spend midgame gas to protect against a purely throwaway mineral investment is a little unfair. Enough mutas to actually dispatch a prism in a timely fashion is a huge money-supply sink.
Personal attacks unnecessary. Just giggle it off.
There were other suggestions to defend against speedprims as well, if you weren't so busy cherry-picking. But I'll leave that at your discretion.
/edit
But on a serious note, get out of this thread if you're here just to troll and derail thread.
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On November 23 2012 18:34 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:14 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 18:09 Corrosive wrote:On November 23 2012 17:54 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:22 DwarfTherapist wrote:
It really tickles me that we have protoss players complaining about deathballs.
This coming from the race that 4gated or just made collosus for almost 2 years Are you going to start posting things that makes sense anytime soon or are you just going to spout out a bunch of nonesense that is not relevant to the discussion whatsoever? ZvP is in a really bad spot right now and it needs to be changed, strats you lost to in whatever league you are in 2 years ago should not be relevant to the discussion whatsoever. I'm getting really tired of seeing broodlord infestor turtle every single lategame PvZ, and i hope these changes will give zergs the kick in the backside they need to start exploring different strats. Whatever happened to Symbols Ultra infestor baneling strat vs protoss? I remember it completely wrecking people not a season or 2 ago, doesn't it have potential? Sigh, games only broken when zerg's in a decent position? Not so fun when you have this impending time bomb ticking away.. You held that position and won games off the back of it for years. I play T so don't really benefit from anything here, but it's just funny seeing toss get frustrated over another race having lategame ability. personally I'll be fine if fungal doesn't destroy my ghosts, more incentive to use an already brilliant unit. Seems a little over the top though. Lets just say zerg is super overpowered as an example im going to make: are you saying it's okay for zerg to be OP because (in your eyes) protoss was op in the same way 2 years ago? Not at all, however blizzard themselves have stated there doesn't seem to be any balance issues, and they have a lot more data than a couple of diamond protss players! Stop implying it was "two years ago". it's been that way FOR two years. Blizz are literally caving in to the players here, which is a huge slippery slope. "we think the game is fine, but we'll do this for you guys if you'll stop whining". Unfortunately this thing is more of a floodgate than stemming a tide. Blizzard responsibile for balancig the game states that game is balanced. Thats like company saying that prodcut they are selling is good. Also Blizzard stated that they don see problem with race representation in tournaments when Terran is practically extinct in pro scene outside of Korea. Blizzard also said that snipe was little too strong and then reduce its damage by 40% across the board. So i would not take too seriously what Blizzard is saying. Alos i would rank Protoss as least succesfull race in SC2 up to this point.
I wouldn't argue with any of that, and haven't so far.
It's never fun for one race to have an option that's just this inevitable "oh my god i cant beat that". It's sc2's failure as a game that the strongest thngs are often the easiest to control. (collo voidray deathballs?) 2 rax all ins, pre nerf insta-storm warpings etc.
I'm not saying toss were overpowered, it's just genuinely funny that the race that got by on building the same deathball for years, is the race that starts calling foul when they aren't the primary deathball race!
As much as i dislike modern blizzard as a developer, i think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that they're purposefully withholding or misrepresenting balance stats just to keep zerg players happy.
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On November 23 2012 17:54 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:22 DwarfTherapist wrote:
It really tickles me that we have protoss players complaining about deathballs.
This coming from the race that 4gated or just made collosus for almost 2 years Are you going to start posting things that makes sense anytime soon or are you just going to spout out a bunch of nonesense that is not relevant to the discussion whatsoever? ZvP is in a really bad spot right now and it needs to be changed, strats you lost to in whatever league you are in 2 years ago should not be relevant to the discussion whatsoever. I'm getting really tired of seeing broodlord infestor turtle every single lategame PvZ, and i hope these changes will give zergs the kick in the backside they need to start exploring different strats. Whatever happened to Symbols Ultra infestor baneling strat vs protoss? I remember it completely wrecking people not a season or 2 ago, doesn't it have potential? Sigh, games only broken when zerg's in a decent position? Not so fun when you have this impending time bomb ticking away.. You held that position and won games off the back of it for years. I play T so don't really benefit from anything here, but it's just funny seeing toss get frustrated over another race having lategame ability. personally I'll be fine if fungal doesn't destroy my ghosts, more incentive to use an already brilliant unit. Seems a little over the top though.
Zerg is hardly in a "decent" position right now. They're dominating every matchup, and are ripping it up in all the major tournaments going on right now (GSL, IEM). The problem is that zergs have gotten so complacent, and frankly lazy, with just needing one unit to completely shut down harass, that their just bitching about having to put in the same amount of work as the other two races again.
Its really not hard to use overseers as mobile detection against dts, as you have to build overlords anyways, and it cheap to convert it to a seer. Also, if youre going to have a shit ton of corrupters anyways, why not leave a few at the base to destroy the wp?? And you can still leave an infestor or two back at the base to lockdown warped in zealots, and kill them with the spines and queens that are already going to be there, plus either a few roaches or some zerglings to add dps. Its not like once you take out the wp, the protoss is just going to keep making more of them, theyre not medivacs, the toss needs the production facility for collosi or immortals, and to replace lost obs. With decent overlord spread alerting of incoming drops, the zerg (the fastest race) should have no problem quickly responding to the threat.
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On November 23 2012 18:38 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:34 DwarfTherapist wrote:
Plogamer, i have a feeling you're very tired or drunk, so i won't force anything more from you right now, doesn't seem fair.
Suffice to say that asking zergs to spend midgame gas to protect against a purely throwaway mineral investment is a little unfair. Enough mutas to actually dispatch a prism in a timely fashion is a huge money-supply sink. Personal attacks unnecessary. Just giggle it off. There were other suggestions to defend against speedprims as well, if you weren't so busy cherry-picking. But I'll leave that at your discretion. /edit But on a serious note, get out of this thread if you're here just to troll and derail thread.
Suspecting you're tired isn't an attack. Don't pretend this is reddit.
The other suggestions seemed to involve things like, surrounding hatcheries with evo chambers, or making 10+ spinecrawlers per base. The options zerg have to cost effectively defend protoss harassment seem fairly thin on the ground outside of the ifnestor, when people are suggesting 1000+ mineral responses to a 200 + X investment.
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On November 23 2012 18:44 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:38 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 18:34 DwarfTherapist wrote:
Plogamer, i have a feeling you're very tired or drunk, so i won't force anything more from you right now, doesn't seem fair.
Suffice to say that asking zergs to spend midgame gas to protect against a purely throwaway mineral investment is a little unfair. Enough mutas to actually dispatch a prism in a timely fashion is a huge money-supply sink. Personal attacks unnecessary. Just giggle it off. There were other suggestions to defend against speedprims as well, if you weren't so busy cherry-picking. But I'll leave that at your discretion. /edit But on a serious note, get out of this thread if you're here just to troll and derail thread. Suspecting you're tired isn't an attack. Don't pretend this is reddit. The other suggestions seemed to involve things like, surrounding hatcheries with evo chambers, or making 10+ spinecrawlers per base. The options zerg have to cost effectively defend protoss harassment seem fairly thin on the ground outside of the ifnestor, when people are suggesting 1000+ mineral responses to a 200 + X investment.
Making evo's is standard. Double evos even. A couple spines are also standard. And did you read about how speedprism harass usually comes after BL/infestor to abuse immobility of BLs? Again, drop the cherry-picking act.
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So speedprisms now are invulnerable against fungal, but medivacs are not? For consistency's sake, please make both either vulnerable or invulnerable ;_;
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On November 23 2012 18:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 17:33 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 17:15 Big J wrote:On November 23 2012 16:59 Godwrath wrote:
Oh so now it turned into a QQ thread.
- We can't stop DT's !! (overseers)
- We can't stop air harass (muta play).
Aside that. The balance map is not about being balanced, but trying out stuff. That's why it's a test balance map. Whining withouth even testing it is just nuts and bad feedback will come from that.
What else ? Yeah, I never said "we can't stop". I just said that I am not sure if it is OK that Infestors cannot be used to stop (and kill) prisms nor uncloak (and kill) DTs anymore. And I even did give replays of me doing this thing as Protoss over and over again at a level, at which I usually don't dominate PvZ. And about your "can't stop air harass" --> "mutalisk play". Next time you have a problem in TvZ when playing Mech, would you bother to take the adivse to "play bio" or vis-versa? Would be quite funny if they removed the bonus vs light on Thors, because you can "just build marines vs mutalisks, harharhar". Zergs tech to Spire lategame regardless in PvZ. Dedicating supply in mutas to defend drops might help against deathball that everyone oh-so-hates. Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can have a sidekick of mutalisks flying around at 15min. You still need a bunch of Broodlords and Infestors first to stand a chance against a maxed deathball attack. Actual gameplay will show how/if things work out, but I really cannot stand arguements like that, to "just go way out of your standard play and it will be fine". Yes, every race is capable of dealing with everything on paper, the question is how it actually plays out in a game. Taking roles away from the Infestor is a very good thing for the game. If it turns out that Zerg can't compete without the Infestor being the answer to everything, then Blizzard should buff other Zerg units. This however, we will only see in a few months, after Zergs have had the time to adapt and make new strategies. IMO right now it is far more important to make Zerg MUs watchable again, then if balance problems arise, make necessary changes.
TvZ and ZvZ are some of the most watchable matchups by far...
ZvP problems are buried deeply in the basic unit/robo/air - interaction, resulting from the stupidity that is a costefficient unit with the only drawback that is extremly supplyinefficient and the inability for Protoss to deal with or build air units.
No, taking away roles is not the right way to go about the infestorproblem. That's the whole idea behind midgame infestorusage - it deals with stuff that the other units (like roach, zergling, baneling) you need/want can't deal with.
Taking away lategame power, is what should be done. The infestorballs throwing beachballs are the problem, not the infestors that are being built as damage support with antiair and anticloak utility.
And this patch does actually affect the Infestorballs by greatly nerfing the dps of fungal against Protossballs (a good part of the units take no damage) and making them more killable (HTs, Ghosts, maybe 1-2 extra seeker missiles).
Also the unfungalable warp prism is kind of cool, because it gives Protoss the mid-lategame harass/scouting tools they lack and might do a fuckton for the watchability of the matchup.
It's the "I see what you have and can warp in accordingly" - factor that makes me a little sceptical. I mean, I can totally see someone like Hero flying a warp prism with 3DTs and 1HT around (all of them psionic) and just feedbacking every overseer, sniping (undefended) sporecrawlers and then proceed to kill a base without even losing the drop anymore. And if there is some defense, 10zealots help out killing the initial defense, then the spore falls and still everything falls for the cost of 1000minerals.
Maybe I'm completly overthinking, but progame balance is really thin. You simply cannot have double the amount of defense everywhere at all possible timings and still play the same standard build.
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On November 23 2012 18:43 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 17:54 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:22 DwarfTherapist wrote:
It really tickles me that we have protoss players complaining about deathballs.
This coming from the race that 4gated or just made collosus for almost 2 years Are you going to start posting things that makes sense anytime soon or are you just going to spout out a bunch of nonesense that is not relevant to the discussion whatsoever? ZvP is in a really bad spot right now and it needs to be changed, strats you lost to in whatever league you are in 2 years ago should not be relevant to the discussion whatsoever. I'm getting really tired of seeing broodlord infestor turtle every single lategame PvZ, and i hope these changes will give zergs the kick in the backside they need to start exploring different strats. Whatever happened to Symbols Ultra infestor baneling strat vs protoss? I remember it completely wrecking people not a season or 2 ago, doesn't it have potential? Sigh, games only broken when zerg's in a decent position? Not so fun when you have this impending time bomb ticking away.. You held that position and won games off the back of it for years. I play T so don't really benefit from anything here, but it's just funny seeing toss get frustrated over another race having lategame ability. personally I'll be fine if fungal doesn't destroy my ghosts, more incentive to use an already brilliant unit. Seems a little over the top though. Zerg is hardly in a "decent" position right now. They're dominating every matchup, and are ripping it up in all the major tournaments going on right now (GSL, IEM). The problem is that zergs have gotten so complacent, and frankly lazy, with just needing one unit to completely shut down harass, that their just bitching about having to put in the same amount of work as the other two races again. Its really not hard to use overseers as mobile detection against dts, as you have to build overlords anyways, and it cheap to convert it to a seer. Also, if youre going to have a shit ton of corrupters anyways, why not leave a few at the base to destroy the wp?? And you can still leave an infestor or two back at the base to lockdown warped in zealots, and kill them with the spines and queens that are already going to be there, plus either a few roaches or some zerglings to add dps. Its not like once you take out the wp, the protoss is just going to keep making more of them, theyre not medivacs, the toss needs the production facility for collosi or immortals, and to replace lost obs. With decent overlord spread alerting of incoming drops, the zerg (the fastest race) should have no problem quickly responding to the threat.
If we're talking about zergs throwing away resources on mutalisks or 10+ spines per base or multiple evos, it's not out of the realms of possibility for a protoss to build ONE extra production building. Let's not forget that protoss often stop building collosus around 4-5, a tech switch to HT/archon frees up the robo naturally.
Overlord placement isn't what it used to be, modern maps have lower airspace compared to oldies like metal. They're also larger, so each overlord has less of an impact. Couple those things with protoss extreme mobility of blink stalkers + collosus, and zerg simply cannot keep overlords on any part of the map that isn't an airway.
Unfortunately for them, corruptors aren't quite a viking. They dont do the front loaded damage of the viking, or have close to the same range. It's much harder to catch or kill an attentively controlled warp prism.. You're asking for " a few roaches and lings, a few corruptors and the queen. Think about that for a second
That's at least 10 supply, assuming 2 roach 2 corruptor and the queen,lets forget the lings.. Now, also remember that the zerg is going to have to protect 4 bases. That's a lot of supply not on the battlefront, just to deal with the possibility that the protoss feels like throwing disposable mineral units at hatcheries.
Speed isn't always mobility either. Especially when you look at current maps, and the relevance of cliffwalking + blink
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On November 23 2012 18:40 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:34 keglu wrote:On November 23 2012 18:14 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 18:09 Corrosive wrote:On November 23 2012 17:54 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:22 DwarfTherapist wrote:
It really tickles me that we have protoss players complaining about deathballs.
This coming from the race that 4gated or just made collosus for almost 2 years Are you going to start posting things that makes sense anytime soon or are you just going to spout out a bunch of nonesense that is not relevant to the discussion whatsoever? ZvP is in a really bad spot right now and it needs to be changed, strats you lost to in whatever league you are in 2 years ago should not be relevant to the discussion whatsoever. I'm getting really tired of seeing broodlord infestor turtle every single lategame PvZ, and i hope these changes will give zergs the kick in the backside they need to start exploring different strats. Whatever happened to Symbols Ultra infestor baneling strat vs protoss? I remember it completely wrecking people not a season or 2 ago, doesn't it have potential? Sigh, games only broken when zerg's in a decent position? Not so fun when you have this impending time bomb ticking away.. You held that position and won games off the back of it for years. I play T so don't really benefit from anything here, but it's just funny seeing toss get frustrated over another race having lategame ability. personally I'll be fine if fungal doesn't destroy my ghosts, more incentive to use an already brilliant unit. Seems a little over the top though. Lets just say zerg is super overpowered as an example im going to make: are you saying it's okay for zerg to be OP because (in your eyes) protoss was op in the same way 2 years ago? Not at all, however blizzard themselves have stated there doesn't seem to be any balance issues, and they have a lot more data than a couple of diamond protss players! Stop implying it was "two years ago". it's been that way FOR two years. Blizz are literally caving in to the players here, which is a huge slippery slope. "we think the game is fine, but we'll do this for you guys if you'll stop whining". Unfortunately this thing is more of a floodgate than stemming a tide. Blizzard responsibile for balancig the game states that game is balanced. Thats like company saying that prodcut they are selling is good. Also Blizzard stated that they don see problem with race representation in tournaments when Terran is practically extinct in pro scene outside of Korea. Blizzard also said that snipe was little too strong and then reduce its damage by 40% across the board. So i would not take too seriously what Blizzard is saying. Alos i would rank Protoss as least succesfull race in SC2 up to this point. I wouldn't argue with any of that, and haven't so far. It's never fun for one race to have an option that's just this inevitable "oh my god i cant beat that". It's sc2's failure as a game that the strongest thngs are often the easiest to control. (collo voidray deathballs?) 2 rax all ins, pre nerf insta-storm warpings etc. I'm not saying toss were overpowered, it's just genuinely funny that the race that got by on building the same deathball for years, is the race that starts calling foul when they aren't the primary deathball race! As much as i dislike modern blizzard as a developer, i think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that they're purposefully withholding or misrepresenting balance stats just to keep zerg players happy.
Im not suprised Protoss players are complaining about PvZ. Since infestor buff (in march 2011 from what i remember) this matchup was quite broken in my opinion.Since aprill 2011 till august 2012 (17 months) ZvP was Z favoured on pro level outside of 3 months(never above 51% win ratio for Protoss).So for 14/17 months ZvP was Zegr favoured and quite broken in second half of 2011.
http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS
About Blizzard its just corporate talk, when they think something is slighty wrong they say everything is okay, when they think something is broken they say "small problem".
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On November 23 2012 18:49 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:44 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 18:38 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 18:34 DwarfTherapist wrote:
Plogamer, i have a feeling you're very tired or drunk, so i won't force anything more from you right now, doesn't seem fair.
Suffice to say that asking zergs to spend midgame gas to protect against a purely throwaway mineral investment is a little unfair. Enough mutas to actually dispatch a prism in a timely fashion is a huge money-supply sink. Personal attacks unnecessary. Just giggle it off. There were other suggestions to defend against speedprims as well, if you weren't so busy cherry-picking. But I'll leave that at your discretion. /edit But on a serious note, get out of this thread if you're here just to troll and derail thread. Suspecting you're tired isn't an attack. Don't pretend this is reddit. The other suggestions seemed to involve things like, surrounding hatcheries with evo chambers, or making 10+ spinecrawlers per base. The options zerg have to cost effectively defend protoss harassment seem fairly thin on the ground outside of the ifnestor, when people are suggesting 1000+ mineral responses to a 200 + X investment. Making evo's is standard. Double evos even. A couple spines are also standard. And did you read about how speedprism harass usually comes after BL/infestor to abuse immobility of BLs? Again, drop the cherry-picking act.
The suggestion we're both talking about, wasn't to build the standard 2 evo's for upgrades, but to build more to protect subsequent bases (reducing surface area on the hatches). on top of the unit/spine investment.
Please stop pretending I'm the cherry-picker here.
You KNOW the game isn't black and white, stop pretending it is! Balancing is complex and it's going to take a lot more than a few protoss players positioning to get their deathball status reassigned.
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Great stuff, NOT. Ah well, I only play HotS beta anyway.
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On November 23 2012 18:57 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:43 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:54 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 17:48 Fragile51 wrote:On November 23 2012 17:22 DwarfTherapist wrote:
It really tickles me that we have protoss players complaining about deathballs.
This coming from the race that 4gated or just made collosus for almost 2 years Are you going to start posting things that makes sense anytime soon or are you just going to spout out a bunch of nonesense that is not relevant to the discussion whatsoever? ZvP is in a really bad spot right now and it needs to be changed, strats you lost to in whatever league you are in 2 years ago should not be relevant to the discussion whatsoever. I'm getting really tired of seeing broodlord infestor turtle every single lategame PvZ, and i hope these changes will give zergs the kick in the backside they need to start exploring different strats. Whatever happened to Symbols Ultra infestor baneling strat vs protoss? I remember it completely wrecking people not a season or 2 ago, doesn't it have potential? Sigh, games only broken when zerg's in a decent position? Not so fun when you have this impending time bomb ticking away.. You held that position and won games off the back of it for years. I play T so don't really benefit from anything here, but it's just funny seeing toss get frustrated over another race having lategame ability. personally I'll be fine if fungal doesn't destroy my ghosts, more incentive to use an already brilliant unit. Seems a little over the top though. Zerg is hardly in a "decent" position right now. They're dominating every matchup, and are ripping it up in all the major tournaments going on right now (GSL, IEM). The problem is that zergs have gotten so complacent, and frankly lazy, with just needing one unit to completely shut down harass, that their just bitching about having to put in the same amount of work as the other two races again. Its really not hard to use overseers as mobile detection against dts, as you have to build overlords anyways, and it cheap to convert it to a seer. Also, if youre going to have a shit ton of corrupters anyways, why not leave a few at the base to destroy the wp?? And you can still leave an infestor or two back at the base to lockdown warped in zealots, and kill them with the spines and queens that are already going to be there, plus either a few roaches or some zerglings to add dps. Its not like once you take out the wp, the protoss is just going to keep making more of them, theyre not medivacs, the toss needs the production facility for collosi or immortals, and to replace lost obs. With decent overlord spread alerting of incoming drops, the zerg (the fastest race) should have no problem quickly responding to the threat. If we're talking about zergs throwing away resources on mutalisks or 10+ spines per base or multiple evos, it's not out of the realms of possibility for a protoss to build ONE extra production building. Let's not forget that protoss often stop building collosus around 4-5, a tech switch to HT/archon frees up the robo naturally. Overlord placement isn't what it used to be, modern maps have lower airspace compared to oldies like metal. They're also larger, so each overlord has less of an impact. Couple those things with protoss extreme mobility of blink stalkers + collosus, and zerg simply cannot keep overlords on any part of the map that isn't an airway. Unfortunately for them, corruptors aren't quite a viking. They dont do the front loaded damage of the viking, or have close to the same range. It's much harder to catch or kill an attentively controlled warp prism.. You're asking for " a few roaches and lings, a few corruptors and the queen. Think about that for a second That's at least 10 supply, assuming 2 roach 2 corruptor and the queen,lets forget the lings.. Now, also remember that the zerg is going to have to protect 4 bases. That's a lot of supply not on the battlefront, just to deal with the possibility that the protoss feels like throwing disposable mineral units at hatcheries. Speed isn't always mobility either. Especially when you look at current maps, and the relevance of cliffwalking + blink
Well the queen is going to be there anyways, so take that out of the supply equation, and you'd only need one defense force for the main and nat, and on some maps (like daybreak) one defensive force could cover your third. Your main army is probably going to be stationed near your most heavily saturated base, so it can defend that one. And lets not forget, the wp does no damage by itself, so whatever the toss warps in/drops also takes supply away from their front too. When it comes to overlord spread, you should have more than enough to be able to cover all the major drop angles (you need 25 just to reach max supply) which will give you enough time to at least get your defensive force moving to intercept the drop. Also, most of a late game zergs dps comes from free or extra units (broodlings and it) as well as fungal, so they dont really need that extra supply as much as other races at their front. And a corruptor using corruption is really not that far behind the viking in dps.
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Z is not dominating P. That is complete make-believe. The races are strong in different parts of the game, but it ends out being pretty balanced.
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It takes 4 corruptors using corruption 5.7 seconds to kill a wp, and obviously 5 seconds for the zealots or whatever to warp in once the process starts. That means if the zerg can get the first shot off on the wp before it is halfway done transitioning to phase mode, then the toss wont be able to warp in any units.
IMO, this only adds more skill to the game. It will be up to the zerg to see the wp coming, and to send units to deflect it in time before it can start warping in units. If they use a handful of their many (no supply) overlords to spot incoming wps, and are mindful of their minimaps, I dont see how they wont be able to deal with it still.
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On November 23 2012 19:00 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:49 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 18:44 DwarfTherapist wrote:On November 23 2012 18:38 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 18:34 DwarfTherapist wrote:
Plogamer, i have a feeling you're very tired or drunk, so i won't force anything more from you right now, doesn't seem fair.
Suffice to say that asking zergs to spend midgame gas to protect against a purely throwaway mineral investment is a little unfair. Enough mutas to actually dispatch a prism in a timely fashion is a huge money-supply sink. Personal attacks unnecessary. Just giggle it off. There were other suggestions to defend against speedprims as well, if you weren't so busy cherry-picking. But I'll leave that at your discretion. /edit But on a serious note, get out of this thread if you're here just to troll and derail thread. Suspecting you're tired isn't an attack. Don't pretend this is reddit. The other suggestions seemed to involve things like, surrounding hatcheries with evo chambers, or making 10+ spinecrawlers per base. The options zerg have to cost effectively defend protoss harassment seem fairly thin on the ground outside of the ifnestor, when people are suggesting 1000+ mineral responses to a 200 + X investment. Making evo's is standard. Double evos even. A couple spines are also standard. And did you read about how speedprism harass usually comes after BL/infestor to abuse immobility of BLs? Again, drop the cherry-picking act. The suggestion we're both talking about, wasn't to build the standard 2 evo's for upgrades, but to build more to protect subsequent bases (reducing surface area on the hatches). on top of the unit/spine investment. Please stop pretending I'm the cherry-picker here. You KNOW the game isn't black and white, stop pretending it is! Balancing is complex and it's going to take a lot more than a few protoss players positioning to get their deathball status reassigned.
Please read carefully, I never said anything about making extra evos. What's to stop the evo's from being built next to main hatch like they are build in natural to create chokes in ZvT. That's just only one of the suggestions here, don't take it as the cure all.
Perhaps, you should take your own advice and not view balance in black and white. Not sure what you mean by "protoss players positioning to get their deathball status reassigned". A) Not a toss player, B) reassigned? I really must be getting tired of your shit.
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United States117 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:44 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:38 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 18:34 DwarfTherapist wrote:
Plogamer, i have a feeling you're very tired or drunk, so i won't force anything more from you right now, doesn't seem fair.
Suffice to say that asking zergs to spend midgame gas to protect against a purely throwaway mineral investment is a little unfair. Enough mutas to actually dispatch a prism in a timely fashion is a huge money-supply sink. Personal attacks unnecessary. Just giggle it off. There were other suggestions to defend against speedprims as well, if you weren't so busy cherry-picking. But I'll leave that at your discretion. /edit But on a serious note, get out of this thread if you're here just to troll and derail thread. Suspecting you're tired isn't an attack. Don't pretend this is reddit. The other suggestions seemed to involve things like, surrounding hatcheries with evo chambers, or making 10+ spinecrawlers per base. The options zerg have to cost effectively defend protoss harassment seem fairly thin on the ground outside of the ifnestor, when people are suggesting 1000+ mineral responses to a 200 + X investment.
I suspect you are retarded. Not an an attack, just suspecting.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
