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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On November 25 2012 00:28 MateShade wrote: You can't buff tanks or nerf immortals without ruining tvp again Yeah you could. Give the tank a mid/late game upgrade that deals additional damage to Protoss shield. Like EMP shells or something. | ||
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Wounded31
124 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On November 24 2012 19:18 Twilight Sparkle wrote: Wasn't the immortal buff the only thing that made the 1/1/1 consistently holdable though? Hmm, not really, I think. Protoss were already figuring it out and may have come by a solution without needing the range buff on the Immortal from 5 to 6. Larger maps also had something to do with it - no more XNC, for instance. That said, I doubt a nerf back to 5 is required. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
I'd be fine with Sentries (and WP) affected by fungal with DT/HT/Archon/MS/Ghost being immune. (I really don't think WP should be immune just because it makes it easier for P to harass.) | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:24 aZealot wrote: Yeah, I agree. Considering the 250/100 cost of the Immortal, 6 range seems to belong on the unit. I'd be fine with Sentries (and WP) affected by fungal with DT/HT/Archon/MS/Ghost being immune. (I really don't think WP should be immune just because it makes it easier for P to harass.) If this goes through without WP being immune to Fungal, then BL/Infestor will still be too strong, as harassment will be as it is now. The ability to more easily Feedback Infestors is not sufficient to make BL/Infestor beatable, and Archons will still be blocked by Broodlings.. It's only sufficient if the Zerg is forced to delay his slow push and give Protoss some say in where to engage through use of harassment, which, currently, would not be possible with the existing WP which gets shut down by an Infestor. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Templar will still not reliably kill 30+ infestors as you see in the super lategame (which is where p struggles), and harassment is fancy and all but honestly quite pointless as the Zerg can just uproot his spines and run around with those killing all your army (prime example being Hero vs Scarlett). On the other hand, pre-hive and pre-broodlord timings will only get stronger and Protoss will be encouraged to 3base even harder than they do now, which isn't exactly ideal for the matchup. Assuming that Zerg will not be able to get to Hive as reliably as they do now (which is reasonable, zealot/archon/immortal/templar timings will be devastating), they will have to find some way to be ahead in the midgame and only use Hive to close out games. Honestly, i'm not entirely sure they can do that. If yes, great, but given how they struggled before figuring out fast Hive builds, it seems unlikely at best. If they wanted to straight up just change the very lategame situations (which is where they should have gone imo), changing the Carrier would have been a far better idea. Plus, i don't play TvZ but the Raven change looks really really small. I mean if they removed the carrier upgrade and gave it automatically to the unit i really wouldn't care, at all. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:34 Shiori wrote: If this goes through without WP being immune to Fungal, then BL/Infestor will still be too strong, as harassment will be as it is now. The ability to more easily Feedback Infestors is not sufficient to make BL/Infestor beatable, and Archons will still be blocked by Broodlings.. It's only sufficient if the Zerg is forced to delay his slow push and give Protoss some say in where to engage through use of harassment, which, currently, would not be possible with the existing WP which gets shut down by an Infestor. I think it an unneeded crutch to Protoss, IMO. It's too selective too (other air units get fungalled) and is a little unfair on Terran too, as medivacs get fungalled anyway. I'm also not sure if Blizzard should be specifically pointing to one unit, the WP, and virtually saying "This is how you beat X" when really, they don't know. To be fair, I am not sure that is what they are saying, more that Psionic is unaffected and letting things play out under that classification with tweaks to come. That said, I sort of agree with Teoita. I'm not sure what the change is meant to accomplish yet. A buff to carriers (in terms of build time/cost if not in terms of micro) would have been better, along with Interceptor immunity. HT are still unlikely to get easily into range without dying, and Archons will need to remain with the rest of the (fungalled) Protoss army (unless, of course, cruising into Vortex land - if unblocked by IT). DTs really (and the MS) seem the units most positively affected. To be honest, I don't think the buff will go through in its current state. It feels clunky and even a little crude. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:34 Shiori wrote: If this goes through without WP being immune to Fungal, then BL/Infestor will still be too strong, as harassment will be as it is now. The ability to more easily Feedback Infestors is not sufficient to make BL/Infestor beatable, and Archons will still be blocked by Broodlings.. It's only sufficient if the Zerg is forced to delay his slow push and give Protoss some say in where to engage through use of harassment, which, currently, would not be possible with the existing WP which gets shut down by an Infestor. There needs to be some good way to engage Infestor/Broodlord head-on without turning it into a coinflip. What makes Infestor/Broodlord so hard to engage? The fact that the Broodlords deal such high damage AND shut down ground movement. So the solution is a unit that can either go toe-to-toe with the Broodlord in terms of damage from a range or an air unit. The problem with air is that Infested Terrans, Fungal, and Corruptors demolish it. So it needs to be a unit which can handle all three. The logical solution is, in fact, the Tempest. It is a unit with long enough range that the first two are irrelevant, and Corruptors can be handled by ground. It can clearly handle Infestor/Broodlord, assuming it is appropriately balanced for numbers. However, there is a fundamental problem with this: Infestor/Broodlord has no good way to combat the Tempest without doing something like spamming Corruptors, and Corruptors are possibly the single least interesting unit in the entire game. At least you can micro Colossi and Marauders. This means that the matchup is now a completely non-positional snorefest, unless the only correct Zerg answer is to Ultralisk switch, which makes the game into a completely different coinflip. This does not address the core problem by which it is impossible to engage Broodlord/Infestor on equal terms, which is a consequence of the impossibility of engaging Colossus/Sentry/Stalker on equal terms, which is a consequence of the impossibility of engaging mass Roach on equal terms. To summarize: a lot of units need to be rebalanced and redesigned for the matchup to stop being stupid. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
It's micro intensive, effective against Broods and Infestors (assuming interceptors are immune to fungal), requires good positioning/protection to be usable vs corruptors. I must be missing something here, it just seems such an obvious potential answer, and it would be far more exciting than just parking Tempests next to a Xel'Naga tower and letting them to their thing. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:34 Shiori wrote: If this goes through without WP being immune to Fungal, then BL/Infestor will still be too strong, as harassment will be as it is now. The ability to more easily Feedback Infestors is not sufficient to make BL/Infestor beatable, and Archons will still be blocked by Broodlings.. It's only sufficient if the Zerg is forced to delay his slow push and give Protoss some say in where to engage through use of harassment, which, currently, would not be possible with the existing WP which gets shut down by an Infestor. To me, it makes the game more interesting if WP was not affected by fungal. Then in the midst of frozen units taking damage, the Protoss player could drop some units on the infestors and add some dynamism to otherwise boring Infestor/fungal play. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:43 D4V3Z02 wrote: Recent tournament results from wcs and dreamhack winter proof that there is no need for a change. Comprehensive list of top tier Korean Zergs at DH Winter: Comprehensive list of top tier Korean Zergs at WCS: Since when does Taeja/HerO stomping foreigners mean the game is balanced? Since when does Rain beating Idra mean anything? | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:43 D4V3Z02 wrote: Recent tournament results from wcs and dreamhack winter proof that there is no need for a change. Yeah, all these european zergs losing to korean protoss/terrans is such a great example. Then you look at the events with Korean zergs, and they basically win all the tournaments. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
And to all newbs only watching mlg or any foreign events, you guyz don't know what your talking about. Gsl code s semi, is 2 zerg and 2 terran and code a there's very few zergs. Overall it's pretty fair and people instead of innovation will opt for hurp derp style with things like making them immune to fungal. durp durp durp feedback, durp hurp durp. User was warned for this post | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:48 Bellazuk wrote: Gumioh emping Life's infestor energy by dropping ghosts and squirtle dealing vs bl/infestor with carrier/voidray/archon in gstl semi-finals. But of course, dustin and david kim aren't watching gsl as they said they were because all the references they make to the "current meta" is from a metagame already outdated by months. I love how Zerg players are able to cherry pick the one game in the past 3 months in which a Zerg player lost in the lategame. Nobody is saying that Zerg has a 100% winrate lategame. We're saying it's higher than 50%. Hell, it's probably like 70%+. For every time Squirtle has beating a Zerg lategame, I can show you two times that he's lost. For every time Ghosts have helped win against lategame Zerg, I can show you two games that they were a liability. Ditto for Ravens. Stop cherrypicking outliers to prove your point. The proper way to judge balance is to watch the games. Analysis of games shows that Infestor/BL is too strong vs. Protoss and that tech switching is too powerful against Terran. Both of these problems are rooted in the Infestor's versatility, hence nerfs. And did you forget that of 9 Zergs in the GSL, only one was eliminated in the first round? Did you forget that there was only 1 Protoss in the Ro8? Did you forget the group of 4 Zergs, which eliminated two Zergs in ZvZ? | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:50 Shiori wrote: I love how Zerg players are able to cherry pick the one game in the past 3 months in which a Zerg player lost in the lategame. Nobody is saying that Zerg has a 100% winrate lategame. We're saying it's higher than 50%. Hell, it's probably like 70%+. For every time Squirtle has beating a Zerg lategame, I can show you two times that he's lost. For every time Ghosts have helped win against lategame Zerg, I can show you two games that they were a liability. Ditto for Ravens. Stop cherrypicking outliers to prove your point. The proper way to judge balance is to watch the games. Analysis of games shows that Infestor/BL is too strong vs. Protoss and that tech switching is too powerful against Terran. Both of these problems are rooted in the Infestor's versatility, hence nerfs. And did you forget that of 9 Zergs in the GSL, only one was eliminated in the first round? Did you forget that there was only 1 Protoss in the Ro8? Did you forget the group of 4 Zergs, which eliminated two Zergs in ZvZ? Infestor is strong, but make psionic units immune is way too strong, it's like some sort of a joke, and players who can't recognize that's too strong are low league players that anyway have no clue on how to play. Spine wall with infestor ling corruptor is the only way you can defend against a 3 base push that comes b4 bl/infestor. With psyonic units immune to fungal there's no way you can defend this push, the only way would be with hydras but hydras are weak vs strom or any colo push and protoss going robo these days so there's no chance your hydra compo won't get scouted . durp durp durp my friend, its going to be a nice a-move, strom, feedback win win game. It's also extremly difficult to defend against right now , can't imagine after the infestor nerf. And please don't tell me you know protoss unless you play at least high master. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On November 25 2012 03:00 Bellazuk wrote: Infestor is strong, but make psionic units immune is way too strong, it's like some sort of a joke, and players who can't recognize that's too strong are low league players that anyway have no clue on how to play. Spine wall with infestor ling corruptor is the only way you can defend against a 3 base push that comes b4 bl/infestor. With psyonic units immune to fungal there's no way you can defend this push, the only way would be with hydras but hydras are weak vs strom or any colo push and protoss going robo these days so there's no chance your hydra compo won't get scouted . durp durp durp my friend, its going to be a nice a-move, strom, feedback win win game. It's also extremly difficult to defend against right now , can't imagine after the infestor nerf. And please don't tell me you know protoss unless you play at least high master. I know how to play Protoss. Just make it so that Sentries aren't psionic and 3base push is fine. And it's ironic that you'd call Toss a-move when Infestor/BL is the easiest composition to control in the game since it outranges everything and can lock units in place. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:04 Teoita wrote: Or they could just give us the fucking bw carrier, or at least let the interceptors change target at leash range rather than launch range. It's micro intensive, effective against Broods and Infestors (assuming interceptors are immune to fungal), requires good positioning/protection to be usable vs corruptors. I must be missing something here, it just seems such an obvious potential answer, and it would be far more exciting than just parking Tempests next to a Xel'Naga tower and letting them to their thing. David Kim already said that changing the Carrier mechanics is a possibility, especially with some of the changes from Liquid'Nony's video. I'm crossing my fingers that they will follow through with this. | ||
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