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On November 26 2012 08:37 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:11 DusTerr wrote:On November 26 2012 07:58 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:50 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:45 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:26 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:18 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 07:14 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:03 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
To clarify, this depends entirely on the Viper being in-game to counter Collosus play, correct? So it's not a viable change for WoL? Do any of these changes have anything to do with countering Colossus play? To summarize the proposed changes: Fungal doesn't hit air. Lair-tech hydra speed upgrade. Maybe bonus damage for hydras vs. light or air. I'm not seeing how that requires vipers or any other HotS stuff to work. -Cross A Protoss making Collosi steamrolls a Zerg making Hydras. Unless the Viper is in there to pull them out of position. Hydra Den is cheaper than stargate. I don't understand how a reactive hydra den, plus hydras (which do well against phoenixes for cheaper) puts a zerg player farther behind against a colossus follow up. He will have spent less resources, and will generally have more economy to spend at that point. What, exactly, is to stop him from building the exact same army as he would build previous, but with a few extra hydras, as 'toss has a few extra phoenixes? -Cross One of the big reason why people pick infestor as the main AA is because they are not specialized, they are useful against everything Let's say Hydra are buffed and are picked to be the main AA in the game, they'll be good against air, then protoss will switch colossi, push and they will be dead supply Infestor on the other hand, hold their ground against pretty much anything, spine+fungal is a deadly defense A zerg cannot reliably go for a heavy hydra comp then drop the spire and pop 10 corruptor to be somewhat safe against Colossi, they need the viper for it to be more than just a AA bot Hey, it seems like you're confusing "Make enough hydras to counter his harass" with "Make a hydra-heavy comp". If I see phoenix, I make a hydra den and roughly match the phoenix resources invested. We have micro wars between hydras and phoenix, to see whether or not the harass is successful. At the end, we've both expended roughly the same amount of resources, given equal micro. So. If we're both X resources behind, how do I die to a colossus push? I'll still have infestors and whatever else I would have gotten out if I'd gone straight for infestors and he'd gone straight for colossi. -Cross I just said why, because Hydra get murdered by colossi Protoss can just stream phoenix and since Hydra arent very good the zerg will have to respond with a pretty heavy Hydra comp, 10 wont do the job against 10 phoenix, especially considering the phoenix are 10 time more mobile When the big push arive, Phoenix arent useless, they can harass, force the zerg out of position or even kill the Hydras Hydra are slow, costly and will get destroyed by the colossus without being able to retaliate, they are cost inefficient, dead supply This is obviously considering WoL state, where viper doesnt exist Hydras also cost half the gas of Phoenix... A Terran that make too many Vikings vs colossi will get rolled by the quick archon/ht army... Why should Zerg get the only multi purpose AA with no downside? The viking are not that cost inefficient, first they are flying, with 9 range and faster than colossus, so they will most likely do the job (Kill the colossus) When hydralisk are slow, on ground and short ranged : They wont kill the phoenix, because the phoenix will never commit to an engagement they might lose, they are just here to fend them off
You forgot the incredible burst damage. More Vikings are better because they kill the Colossi before they can do any damage to the bioball. You're not trying to end up with no Vikings and no Colossi after the fight, you're trying to end up with no Colossi as fast as possible because MMM absolutely obliterates everything else that Protoss makes apart from Storm.
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On November 26 2012 08:26 Acritter wrote:
No. That's not it at all. That would probably hurt the Hydralisk more than help. Speed upgrade will mean that they just cut into the same niche as the Roach even more. The Roach is a seriously problematic unit already, that's part of a joint effort with the Sentry, the Colossus, the Infestor, and the Broodlord to make PvZ unplayable. If the Hydralisk received these buffs, it would either continue to be outshadowed by the Roach (nothing changes) or become better than the Roach (bad shit goes down). Damage buff does nothing to address the problem that Hydralisks melt to Colossi. They are worse against Colossi than Marines, because Marines have a lower cost/radius density and have Medivacs to heal them. All it does is make the Hydralisk even more of an all-in unit. No, the Hydralisk is fundamentally flawed as a short-ranged anti-air ground unit.
Let's look back at Broodwar for a minute. What were the primary anti-air options for each race? Terran used the Goliath and the Marine. The Goliath traded about equally with Carriers depending on the map, and the Marine was about acceptable against Mutalisks but needed significant Turret support. The first was a long-ranged option, and the second was barely passable with its huge DPS and large amounts of static defense (and the actual COUNTER to the Muta was the Science Vessel). Protoss used the Dragoon and the Corsair. The Dragoon was used as a primary army unit that you occasionally used to kill Dropships and Shuttles. The Corsair was a fast air unit. Zerg used Scourge. Hydralisks were an anti-ground option that occasionally killed Observers. Most significantly, they were USELESS against Mutalisks and Corsairs, even though the latter is even weaker against Hydralisks than the Phoenix. Scourge were the best option that Zerg had against air, as yet another fast air unit. Note: all the air counters are ones that can handle air's MOBILITY more than just being able to shoot up. The Marine was the worst at handling the Muta's mobility, and as such needed static support. It's probably the best thing to compare to the SC2 Hydralisk, but unfortunately Hydras are just too expensive and fragile to justify building a squad of them and then supporting them with static defense.
Similar trends hold up in SC2 with the Viking, Stalker (please remember Blink), Thor, Infestor (7-9 range on Fungal), and Phoenix. The Hydralisk simply cannot function in its current role, because that role is fundamentally flawed. That's all there is to say about it. Hydra needs to be T1 basic ranged, and Roach needs to be a T2 support/situational unit. Once that design is on the table, balance changes will start having an effect.
I guess I have trouble arguing when our views of what's going on are so radically different. I view a lot of the statements you make as fundamentally untrue. Buffing the hydralisk against air does not, in any way, make them cut into the Roach's niche. Because the roach can't hit air. I don't understand how this is even a thing we can disagree on. The whole point is to make an the Hydra an anti-harass tool - a role it doesn't function well at, right now.
I don't really have too many opinions on whether or not the only way to balance units is to ape Brood War's balance scheme.
-Cross
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On November 26 2012 08:37 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:36 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:29 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep.
Last I checked, the HotS upgrade gave Hydralisks equal speed on and off Creep. I still don't think it will help, but it's good to have the facts straight. It brings them up to 2.75 off creep. It keeps their on creep speed the same at 3.375 (actually slightly less if liquipedia is to be trusted, but It's negligible). I also didn't realize that they were talking about the HotS speed upgrade just at the lair level, my apologies. I could be wrong. I just assumed they were talking about the speed upgrade we know rather than one we don't.
I did at first as well, but then some posts seemed to imply that it would be an on creep speed boost, which the HotS doesn't do. Honestly, I don't know why Hydra's need a speed boost to defend against Phoenix harass. You defend against the harass by keeping them near your drones/units.
Hydra's only need a speed boost to keep up with the army to defend the army from phoenix's and to be used positionally like zergs need. You need to come at the enemy from multiple angles to limit the damage of the collosus, for faster surrounds and to require more force fields. I don't think 2.75 is fast enough for that but I don't have HotS.
Slow speed is ok for infestors because they have range 9 fungal. They don't need to surround, just to get to range and cast.
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On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes?
You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role.
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On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes?
I mean, easily? Give them a lair-tech speed upgrade that makes them faster on creep. Give them a damage bonus.
Do we agree that they're underpowered now? Yes?
Do we agree that "Double damage versus air, +3 movement speed on creep" would make them overpowered as an anti-harass unit? Yes?
Then somewhere between those values lies balance.
-Cross
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On November 26 2012 08:11 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:58 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:50 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:45 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:26 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:18 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 07:14 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:03 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
To clarify, this depends entirely on the Viper being in-game to counter Collosus play, correct? So it's not a viable change for WoL? Do any of these changes have anything to do with countering Colossus play? To summarize the proposed changes: Fungal doesn't hit air. Lair-tech hydra speed upgrade. Maybe bonus damage for hydras vs. light or air. I'm not seeing how that requires vipers or any other HotS stuff to work. -Cross A Protoss making Collosi steamrolls a Zerg making Hydras. Unless the Viper is in there to pull them out of position. Hydra Den is cheaper than stargate. I don't understand how a reactive hydra den, plus hydras (which do well against phoenixes for cheaper) puts a zerg player farther behind against a colossus follow up. He will have spent less resources, and will generally have more economy to spend at that point. What, exactly, is to stop him from building the exact same army as he would build previous, but with a few extra hydras, as 'toss has a few extra phoenixes? -Cross One of the big reason why people pick infestor as the main AA is because they are not specialized, they are useful against everything Let's say Hydra are buffed and are picked to be the main AA in the game, they'll be good against air, then protoss will switch colossi, push and they will be dead supply Infestor on the other hand, hold their ground against pretty much anything, spine+fungal is a deadly defense A zerg cannot reliably go for a heavy hydra comp then drop the spire and pop 10 corruptor to be somewhat safe against Colossi, they need the viper for it to be more than just a AA bot Hey, it seems like you're confusing "Make enough hydras to counter his harass" with "Make a hydra-heavy comp". If I see phoenix, I make a hydra den and roughly match the phoenix resources invested. We have micro wars between hydras and phoenix, to see whether or not the harass is successful. At the end, we've both expended roughly the same amount of resources, given equal micro. So. If we're both X resources behind, how do I die to a colossus push? I'll still have infestors and whatever else I would have gotten out if I'd gone straight for infestors and he'd gone straight for colossi. -Cross I just said why, because Hydra get murdered by colossi Protoss can just stream phoenix and since Hydra arent very good the zerg will have to respond with a pretty heavy Hydra comp, 10 wont do the job against 10 phoenix, especially considering the phoenix are 10 time more mobile When the big push arive, Phoenix arent useless, they can harass, force the zerg out of position or even kill the Hydras Hydra are slow, costly and will get destroyed by the colossus without being able to retaliate, they are cost inefficient, dead supply This is obviously considering WoL state, where viper doesnt exist Hydras also cost half the gas of Phoenix... A Terran that make too many Vikings vs colossi will get rolled by the quick archon/ht army... Why should Zerg get the only multi purpose AA with no downside?
Well, Zerg currently have Infestors to handle basic AA. We're talking about removing their ability to do that. Terrans have, in addition to the Viking, the Marine and the Thor, both of which can shoot up. Protoss have Stalkers, Phoenixes and Archons, which can all handle various amounts of AA duty. Zerg, without Fungal affecting air units, will have the Corruptor and the Queen. That's just not good enough. That's one dedicated AA unit and one ultra-supportive caster that happens to be able to attack. Some other aspect of Zerg would have to be buffed, and the Hydralisk is the best candidate.
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On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role.
I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass.
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Are phoenix psionic type? What is this discussion getting into?
Immortal/sentry is the focus since the new balance changes propose making sentries immune.
A) main argument why it doesn't affect ZvP as much:
Immortal/sentry timing hits before infestors
- The best zerg response I've seen so far:
This change allows protoss to ball up and do a bigger attack much later
- My counter response:
Infestors still can root/damage and delay immortals and other units. Zergs will have more time then to make more units, make more spines, bait out forcefields. And maybe zergs will finally not be allowed to skip ultras (to break FFs if nothing else) and tech straight to brood lords.
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On November 26 2012 08:44 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? I mean, easily? Give them a lair-tech speed upgrade that makes them faster on creep. Give them a damage bonus. Do we agree that they're underpowered now? Yes? Do we agree that "Double damage versus air, +3 movement speed on creep" would make them overpowered as an anti-harass unit? Yes? Then somewhere between those values lies balance. -Cross
I don't actually think there's a point at which Hydras will be balanced against Protoss without the utility of the Viper. Not without making another unit, probably the Roach, superfluous.
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On November 26 2012 08:40 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:37 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 08:11 DusTerr wrote:On November 26 2012 07:58 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:50 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:45 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:26 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:18 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 07:14 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:03 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
To clarify, this depends entirely on the Viper being in-game to counter Collosus play, correct? So it's not a viable change for WoL? Do any of these changes have anything to do with countering Colossus play? To summarize the proposed changes: Fungal doesn't hit air. Lair-tech hydra speed upgrade. Maybe bonus damage for hydras vs. light or air. I'm not seeing how that requires vipers or any other HotS stuff to work. -Cross A Protoss making Collosi steamrolls a Zerg making Hydras. Unless the Viper is in there to pull them out of position. Hydra Den is cheaper than stargate. I don't understand how a reactive hydra den, plus hydras (which do well against phoenixes for cheaper) puts a zerg player farther behind against a colossus follow up. He will have spent less resources, and will generally have more economy to spend at that point. What, exactly, is to stop him from building the exact same army as he would build previous, but with a few extra hydras, as 'toss has a few extra phoenixes? -Cross One of the big reason why people pick infestor as the main AA is because they are not specialized, they are useful against everything Let's say Hydra are buffed and are picked to be the main AA in the game, they'll be good against air, then protoss will switch colossi, push and they will be dead supply Infestor on the other hand, hold their ground against pretty much anything, spine+fungal is a deadly defense A zerg cannot reliably go for a heavy hydra comp then drop the spire and pop 10 corruptor to be somewhat safe against Colossi, they need the viper for it to be more than just a AA bot Hey, it seems like you're confusing "Make enough hydras to counter his harass" with "Make a hydra-heavy comp". If I see phoenix, I make a hydra den and roughly match the phoenix resources invested. We have micro wars between hydras and phoenix, to see whether or not the harass is successful. At the end, we've both expended roughly the same amount of resources, given equal micro. So. If we're both X resources behind, how do I die to a colossus push? I'll still have infestors and whatever else I would have gotten out if I'd gone straight for infestors and he'd gone straight for colossi. -Cross I just said why, because Hydra get murdered by colossi Protoss can just stream phoenix and since Hydra arent very good the zerg will have to respond with a pretty heavy Hydra comp, 10 wont do the job against 10 phoenix, especially considering the phoenix are 10 time more mobile When the big push arive, Phoenix arent useless, they can harass, force the zerg out of position or even kill the Hydras Hydra are slow, costly and will get destroyed by the colossus without being able to retaliate, they are cost inefficient, dead supply This is obviously considering WoL state, where viper doesnt exist Hydras also cost half the gas of Phoenix... A Terran that make too many Vikings vs colossi will get rolled by the quick archon/ht army... Why should Zerg get the only multi purpose AA with no downside? The viking are not that cost inefficient, first they are flying, with 9 range and faster than colossus, so they will most likely do the job (Kill the colossus) When hydralisk are slow, on ground and short ranged : They wont kill the phoenix, because the phoenix will never commit to an engagement they might lose, they are just here to fend them off You forgot the incredible burst damage. More Vikings are better because they kill the Colossi before they can do any damage to the bioball. You're not trying to end up with no Vikings and no Colossi after the fight, you're trying to end up with no Colossi as fast as possible because MMM absolutely obliterates everything else that Protoss makes apart from Storm.
you're both missing the point. When protoss transition away from colossi and go with an archon/HT army. Terran over making Vikings is dead. (I'm talking about Protoss making 1 colossi and switching tech.) So saying that Hydras are bad vs Colossi isn't justification for them not to be built vs Phoenix. (Saying Hydras are bad vs Phoenix - even with the gas cost ratio in mind - is a whole different argument.)
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On November 26 2012 08:41 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:26 Acritter wrote:
No. That's not it at all. That would probably hurt the Hydralisk more than help. Speed upgrade will mean that they just cut into the same niche as the Roach even more. The Roach is a seriously problematic unit already, that's part of a joint effort with the Sentry, the Colossus, the Infestor, and the Broodlord to make PvZ unplayable. If the Hydralisk received these buffs, it would either continue to be outshadowed by the Roach (nothing changes) or become better than the Roach (bad shit goes down). Damage buff does nothing to address the problem that Hydralisks melt to Colossi. They are worse against Colossi than Marines, because Marines have a lower cost/radius density and have Medivacs to heal them. All it does is make the Hydralisk even more of an all-in unit. No, the Hydralisk is fundamentally flawed as a short-ranged anti-air ground unit.
Let's look back at Broodwar for a minute. What were the primary anti-air options for each race? Terran used the Goliath and the Marine. The Goliath traded about equally with Carriers depending on the map, and the Marine was about acceptable against Mutalisks but needed significant Turret support. The first was a long-ranged option, and the second was barely passable with its huge DPS and large amounts of static defense (and the actual COUNTER to the Muta was the Science Vessel). Protoss used the Dragoon and the Corsair. The Dragoon was used as a primary army unit that you occasionally used to kill Dropships and Shuttles. The Corsair was a fast air unit. Zerg used Scourge. Hydralisks were an anti-ground option that occasionally killed Observers. Most significantly, they were USELESS against Mutalisks and Corsairs, even though the latter is even weaker against Hydralisks than the Phoenix. Scourge were the best option that Zerg had against air, as yet another fast air unit. Note: all the air counters are ones that can handle air's MOBILITY more than just being able to shoot up. The Marine was the worst at handling the Muta's mobility, and as such needed static support. It's probably the best thing to compare to the SC2 Hydralisk, but unfortunately Hydras are just too expensive and fragile to justify building a squad of them and then supporting them with static defense.
Similar trends hold up in SC2 with the Viking, Stalker (please remember Blink), Thor, Infestor (7-9 range on Fungal), and Phoenix. The Hydralisk simply cannot function in its current role, because that role is fundamentally flawed. That's all there is to say about it. Hydra needs to be T1 basic ranged, and Roach needs to be a T2 support/situational unit. Once that design is on the table, balance changes will start having an effect. I guess I have trouble arguing when our views of what's going on are so radically different. I view a lot of the statements you make as fundamentally untrue. Buffing the hydralisk against air does not, in any way, make them cut into the Roach's niche. Because the roach can't hit air. I don't understand how this is even a thing we can disagree on. The whole point is to make an the Hydra an anti-harass tool - a role it doesn't function well at, right now. I don't really have too many opinions on whether or not the only way to balance units is to ape Brood War's balance scheme. -Cross
You need to reread my post before we can continue. I said that increasing the speed would cut into the Roach's niche. Increasing the damage would make the unit even more gimmicky. I'm surprised you're not aware of the fact that the Roach counters air units better than the Hydralisk. You attack-move with them into the enemy base, and the air units don't kill them fast enough for it to matter. You should familiarize yourself with the ZvP unit counter chart: the counter to every Protoss unit but the Phoenix is the Roach, and the counter to the Phoenix is the Hatchery. Now, that's obviously a tongue-in-cheek joke, but it strikes quite close to home. Air units do not threaten Roach offensives enough for Hydralisks to be relevant, and Spores and Queens handle harassment so much better than Hydralisks that there is simply no place for them in the game. They need to be fundamentally redesigned as a different unit, because right now the game has no space free for a short-ranged anti-air unit.
And please, next time try to actually address some of my core points. You have not explained why the Hydralisk is able to magically evade basic game logic, which requires the counter to an air-based strategy to not just be something that can shoot up but rather something that negates their mobility. I'll be waiting.
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On November 26 2012 08:47 plogamer wrote:
Are phoenix psionic type? What is this discussion getting into?
Immortal/sentry is the focus since the new balance changes propose making sentries immune.
A) main argument why it doesn't affect ZvP as much:
Immortal/sentry timing hits before infestors
- The best zerg response I've seen so far:
This change allows protoss to ball up and do a bigger attack much later
- My counter response:
Infestors still can root/damage and delay immortals and other units. Zergs will have more time then to make more units, make more spines, bait out forcefields. And maybe zergs will finally not be allowed to skip ultras (to break FFs if nothing else) and tech straight to brood lords.
We've been talking about Fungal working as it normally does against ground units, but do nothing against air. It's been probably the best balance discussion I've seen here since the release of SC2.
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On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes?
First off, for hydra's to be counter harass, the issue isn't with hydra's stats but instead with grav beam mechanics. A vastly cheaper hydra could be used to ignore the grav beam mechanics much as marines can do, but that would require a lot more changes to stats as well. You can make the hydras faster, but that doesn't help with the counter harass as if you don't have much more than they do, they all still die without killing the phoenixes.
Against Collo pushes, if hydras were fast enough that you could attack with them from multiple angles, then their weaknesses would be limited. Due to their current speed, you can really only attack from one direction, which makes them clumped up and ripe for dying to collo splash. If they are fast enough that you can surround like speed roaches, then the splash is limited and you can split them up so less are affected by each attack.
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On November 26 2012 08:50 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:40 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:37 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 08:11 DusTerr wrote:On November 26 2012 07:58 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:50 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:45 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:26 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:18 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 07:14 Crosswind wrote:
[quote]
Do any of these changes have anything to do with countering Colossus play?
To summarize the proposed changes:
Fungal doesn't hit air.
Lair-tech hydra speed upgrade.
Maybe bonus damage for hydras vs. light or air.
I'm not seeing how that requires vipers or any other HotS stuff to work.
-Cross A Protoss making Collosi steamrolls a Zerg making Hydras. Unless the Viper is in there to pull them out of position. Hydra Den is cheaper than stargate. I don't understand how a reactive hydra den, plus hydras (which do well against phoenixes for cheaper) puts a zerg player farther behind against a colossus follow up. He will have spent less resources, and will generally have more economy to spend at that point. What, exactly, is to stop him from building the exact same army as he would build previous, but with a few extra hydras, as 'toss has a few extra phoenixes? -Cross One of the big reason why people pick infestor as the main AA is because they are not specialized, they are useful against everything Let's say Hydra are buffed and are picked to be the main AA in the game, they'll be good against air, then protoss will switch colossi, push and they will be dead supply Infestor on the other hand, hold their ground against pretty much anything, spine+fungal is a deadly defense A zerg cannot reliably go for a heavy hydra comp then drop the spire and pop 10 corruptor to be somewhat safe against Colossi, they need the viper for it to be more than just a AA bot Hey, it seems like you're confusing "Make enough hydras to counter his harass" with "Make a hydra-heavy comp". If I see phoenix, I make a hydra den and roughly match the phoenix resources invested. We have micro wars between hydras and phoenix, to see whether or not the harass is successful. At the end, we've both expended roughly the same amount of resources, given equal micro. So. If we're both X resources behind, how do I die to a colossus push? I'll still have infestors and whatever else I would have gotten out if I'd gone straight for infestors and he'd gone straight for colossi. -Cross I just said why, because Hydra get murdered by colossi Protoss can just stream phoenix and since Hydra arent very good the zerg will have to respond with a pretty heavy Hydra comp, 10 wont do the job against 10 phoenix, especially considering the phoenix are 10 time more mobile When the big push arive, Phoenix arent useless, they can harass, force the zerg out of position or even kill the Hydras Hydra are slow, costly and will get destroyed by the colossus without being able to retaliate, they are cost inefficient, dead supply This is obviously considering WoL state, where viper doesnt exist Hydras also cost half the gas of Phoenix... A Terran that make too many Vikings vs colossi will get rolled by the quick archon/ht army... Why should Zerg get the only multi purpose AA with no downside? The viking are not that cost inefficient, first they are flying, with 9 range and faster than colossus, so they will most likely do the job (Kill the colossus) When hydralisk are slow, on ground and short ranged : They wont kill the phoenix, because the phoenix will never commit to an engagement they might lose, they are just here to fend them off You forgot the incredible burst damage. More Vikings are better because they kill the Colossi before they can do any damage to the bioball. You're not trying to end up with no Vikings and no Colossi after the fight, you're trying to end up with no Colossi as fast as possible because MMM absolutely obliterates everything else that Protoss makes apart from Storm. you're both missing the point. When protoss transition away from colossi and go with an archon/HT army. Terran over making Vikings is dead. (I'm talking about Protoss making 1 colossi and switching tech.) So saying that Hydras are bad vs Colossi isn't justification for them not to be built vs Phoenix. (Saying Hydras are bad vs Phoenix - even with the gas cost ratio in mind - is a whole different argument.)
You're talking about a situation in which Terran makes a mistake in his production. We're talking about finding a balance point with Hydras where they're essential parts of the Zerg midgame without fatally compromising the Z army against a Collosus-based deathball.
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On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass.
Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant.
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On November 26 2012 08:54 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? First off, for hydra's to be counter harass, the issue isn't with hydra's stats but instead with grav beam mechanics. A vastly cheaper hydra could be used to ignore the grav beam mechanics much as marines can do, but that would require a lot more changes to stats as well. You can make the hydras faster, but that doesn't help with the counter harass as if you don't have much more than they do, they all still die without killing the phoenixes. Against Collo pushes, if hydras were fast enough that you could attack with them from multiple angles, then their weaknesses would be limited. Due to their current speed, you can really only attack from one direction, which makes them clumped up and ripe for dying to collo splash. If they are fast enough that you can surround like speed roaches, then the splash is limited and you can split them up so less are affected by each attack.
In the situation I'm thinking about, the Phoenixes are really never attacking the Hydras. So I'm not especially worried or concerned by the Grav Beam mechanics.
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On November 26 2012 08:55 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass. Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant.
I really think the answer here is just the Viper, to be completely honest. Roach/Hydra isn't going to be bothered by by Phoenixes, and the Viper's abilities give that army a fighting chance against Collosus compositions. Finding a balance point for WoL is going to be... god. A lot harder, anyway.
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On November 26 2012 08:50 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:40 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:37 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 08:11 DusTerr wrote:On November 26 2012 07:58 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:50 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:45 Protosnake wrote:On November 26 2012 07:26 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 07:18 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 07:14 Crosswind wrote:
[quote]
Do any of these changes have anything to do with countering Colossus play?
To summarize the proposed changes:
Fungal doesn't hit air.
Lair-tech hydra speed upgrade.
Maybe bonus damage for hydras vs. light or air.
I'm not seeing how that requires vipers or any other HotS stuff to work.
-Cross A Protoss making Collosi steamrolls a Zerg making Hydras. Unless the Viper is in there to pull them out of position. Hydra Den is cheaper than stargate. I don't understand how a reactive hydra den, plus hydras (which do well against phoenixes for cheaper) puts a zerg player farther behind against a colossus follow up. He will have spent less resources, and will generally have more economy to spend at that point. What, exactly, is to stop him from building the exact same army as he would build previous, but with a few extra hydras, as 'toss has a few extra phoenixes? -Cross One of the big reason why people pick infestor as the main AA is because they are not specialized, they are useful against everything Let's say Hydra are buffed and are picked to be the main AA in the game, they'll be good against air, then protoss will switch colossi, push and they will be dead supply Infestor on the other hand, hold their ground against pretty much anything, spine+fungal is a deadly defense A zerg cannot reliably go for a heavy hydra comp then drop the spire and pop 10 corruptor to be somewhat safe against Colossi, they need the viper for it to be more than just a AA bot Hey, it seems like you're confusing "Make enough hydras to counter his harass" with "Make a hydra-heavy comp". If I see phoenix, I make a hydra den and roughly match the phoenix resources invested. We have micro wars between hydras and phoenix, to see whether or not the harass is successful. At the end, we've both expended roughly the same amount of resources, given equal micro. So. If we're both X resources behind, how do I die to a colossus push? I'll still have infestors and whatever else I would have gotten out if I'd gone straight for infestors and he'd gone straight for colossi. -Cross I just said why, because Hydra get murdered by colossi Protoss can just stream phoenix and since Hydra arent very good the zerg will have to respond with a pretty heavy Hydra comp, 10 wont do the job against 10 phoenix, especially considering the phoenix are 10 time more mobile When the big push arive, Phoenix arent useless, they can harass, force the zerg out of position or even kill the Hydras Hydra are slow, costly and will get destroyed by the colossus without being able to retaliate, they are cost inefficient, dead supply This is obviously considering WoL state, where viper doesnt exist Hydras also cost half the gas of Phoenix... A Terran that make too many Vikings vs colossi will get rolled by the quick archon/ht army... Why should Zerg get the only multi purpose AA with no downside? The viking are not that cost inefficient, first they are flying, with 9 range and faster than colossus, so they will most likely do the job (Kill the colossus) When hydralisk are slow, on ground and short ranged : They wont kill the phoenix, because the phoenix will never commit to an engagement they might lose, they are just here to fend them off You forgot the incredible burst damage. More Vikings are better because they kill the Colossi before they can do any damage to the bioball. You're not trying to end up with no Vikings and no Colossi after the fight, you're trying to end up with no Colossi as fast as possible because MMM absolutely obliterates everything else that Protoss makes apart from Storm. you're both missing the point. When protoss transition away from colossi and go with an archon/HT army. Terran over making Vikings is dead. (I'm talking about Protoss making 1 colossi and switching tech.) So saying that Hydras are bad vs Colossi isn't justification for them not to be built vs Phoenix. (Saying Hydras are bad vs Phoenix - even with the gas cost ratio in mind - is a whole different argument.)
Ah, that build. The issue THERE is poor scouting. I mean, if the Protoss builds like 20 Phoenix, it becomes a really good idea to build Hydralisks. But if they only build like 3 Phoenix before switching techs you shouldn't even make extra Queens. I don't think that bringing up an intentionally tricksy build order is good for the comparison.
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On November 26 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:55 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass. Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant. I really think the answer here is just the Viper, to be completely honest. Roach/Hydra isn't going to be bothered by by Phoenixes, and the Viper's abilities give that army a fighting chance against Collosus compositions. Finding a balance point for WoL is going to be... god. A lot harder, anyway.
The Viper is a unit that makes Colossi irrelevant. Blinding Cloud is incredible. Unfortunately, it's Hive Tech, and if we're at Hive, might as well go Infestor/Broodlord.
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Fair criticism from ACritter. You are arguing that counters which do not limit the mobility of an air unit aren't counters unless they're disproportionate in terms of damage.
I guess I'd point at the blink stalker, versus the mutalisk, as an example of an anti-harass tool which is neither disproportionate in terms of damage, or mobility-limiting. Instead, the blink stalker has both good mobility, and reasonable damage. A half and half solution.
On creep, Hydras have pretty good mobility. I would not be opposed to making it much better mobility. Right now they do about 1.5x the damage of a marine. Give them bonus damage versus air, and they then have good mobility and better damage. Do they not, then, satisfy your requirements for a viable anti-air counter?
-Cross
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EPT
