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On November 26 2012 16:58 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 10:04 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 10:01 Exquisite wrote:
In response to the infestor nerf:
I think a balance change to infestors is fair for zerg right now, but not in this way. In my opinion, infestors, high templar, and ghosts should be equal in there ability to combat each other. Templar have feedback, ghosts have snipe and emp, but with this change infestors would only really be able to use NP to use the other caster ability against them (which is pretty hard to do, and dropping IT would really only work if the opponent had sloppy control and left their casters unattended and/or unprotected). So this would make ghosts and templar ALWAYS able to easily combat infestors.
In regards to the sentry, being that it is a tier 1 unit, I think the infestor, being tier 2 should have the slight edge in value when fighting each other. But this change makes sentry pushes more difficult to stop because it limits an infestor defense to ONLY using IT.
My other reason against it is that without fungal, zerg only has one mobile detection from the overseer, whereas terran has scans, emps, AND ravens, and protoss has observers and (storm/other aoe units can at least do damage to invisible units). It just really doesn't seem fair to limit zerg in the way that they can't reveal cloaked units very well in having them ONLY rely on overseers.
As for the warp prism, I initially didn't agree with. But then I realized this: zergs would NEED to get a spire to be well defended against that kind of harassment (dont even try to argue that hydras would get used more because we all know that they wont in this matchup). But what does this do? Makes mutas a more likely midgame transition instead of going for the typical infestor pack. I do agree with the fact that infestors need to be changed, but ONLY to make the other midgame units more used. Nowadays we only see 3base zerg into infestor into broodlord with no other transition in between. Ill admit as a zerg player it is pretty boring, but if we are going to change this unit, we have to make the other lair tech units more viable, especially because in ZvT/P zerg can either go infestor or muta (nydus/drop tech is used too but is only good against a heavy econ opponent), but other than that they are fairly limited in the midgame.
This post is not in complaint of the potential changes but more to make people think that if this is really whats going to happen to infestors, then zerg WILL need some kind of buff to the less used units on lair tech because this change could be potentially as big as the sniping nerf to ghosts way back when. In Broodwar, Protoss had Feedback and Terran had EMP (both of which were never used against Zerg, but still). You don't need equivalence to balance a game. In fact, it's sometimes better to make things impossible to compare. The point is also that Feedback was on the Dark Archon, a unit which you DIDNT build lots of. In SC2 that was moved to the mass-unit High Templar. Ghosts arent that useful in combat themselves to make up for it and EMP doenst kill a unit by itself.
Well, okay. Let's get down to brass tacks. In Broodwar, there was only one commonly used anti-caster spellcaster, and that was the Science Vessel. For every other race, the solution to casters was assassin units or a bulldog strategy. Running through the matchups: ZvZ lacked spellcasters. ZvT used Scourge to snipe Science Vessels. ZvP used Mutalisks to snipe Templar. TvT had no spellcasters. TvZ used Science Vessels to snipe Defilers. TvP used Science Vessels to EMP Arbiters, and Goliaths to kill them. PvP tried to storm other High Templar, but really that was just because they happened to be with the rest of the army. PvT occasionally used Stasis Field to shut down Science Vessels, but mostly just waited to catch the Terran out of position and then killed the Science Vessels with Dragoons. PvZ just killed Defilers when they ended up in range of the army.
This is a very different dynamic than SC2. The obvious problem with anti-spellcaster casters on more than one race is that they will almost inevitably end up being used to counter one another, leading to cases of extreme silliness. I'm more in favor of the Broodwar model. I'd like the Ghost to be the sole anti-caster caster, and have Zerg rely on Mutalisks and brute force and Protoss rely on Phoenix and Blink Stalkers. To me, that feels much cooler. But we'll see.
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On November 26 2012 17:31 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 13:03 zmansman17 wrote:On November 26 2012 07:39 DusTerr wrote:
I like the idea of FG not rooting air (still doing damage - to stay on par with other spell casters).
Maybe other AA options need a buff... but I'm not sure. Hydras on creep have the same speed as stim marines (3.375) with equal range (before upgrade). Corruptors may not be as cost efficient as vikings, but being able to make them in mass means you shouldn't ever be in an even match.
My other suggestion would be limit the range of FG or nerf IT I think if fungal didn't root air, the world would be a better place. Do you REALLY want ZvZ to be Muta Wars that you can't even micro with? The only reason BW ZvZ was remotely acceptable was that you got to watch players show off their Muta micro. We won't even get that if Infestors can't root air.
Yup. ZvZ would become similiar to Stargate v Stargate in PvP right now and basically you HAVE to keep building more and more pheonix with little or no transistion if both sides don't make any mistakes.
The difference is Stargate vs Stargate is rare right now. Muta v Muta would be the de facto standard if fungals couldn't hit air.
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Have one of fungals effects, root or damage, work only against biological.
That way you would still prevent muta domination and have effective, but (as projectile) dodgable splash against MMM, but give vikings/voidrays a better chance to fight corruptor/BL. If they remain undamaged, they can use air-dominance, or if not rooted, they can micro against corruptors/IT etc. Also mech (esp hellions...) would gain a buff (but mainly through vikings). Protoss deathball would also be more durable which might be a bad thing.
Still, would be subtle change with some lore-logic behind it.
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On November 26 2012 18:36 Daswollvieh wrote:
Have one of fungals effects, root or damage, work only against biological.
That way you would still prevent muta domination and have effective, but (as projectile) dodgable splash against MMM, but give vikings/voidrays a better chance to fight corruptor/BL. If they remain undamaged, they can use air-dominance, or if not rooted, they can micro against corruptors/IT etc. Also mech (esp hellions...) would gain a buff (but mainly through vikings). Protoss deathball would also be more durable which might be a bad thing.
Still, would be subtle change with some lore-logic behind it.
Voidray collosus deathball was the reason the infestor DPS was doubled long ago. I can give that the current metagame has shifted from that, but it will be changing one nearly unstoppable deathball for another.
But the rooting just affecting bio is a nice suggestion. ZvZ will remain unchanged, Infestor can still lock bio on place, but protoss and terran will have means to micro stalkers / vikings to kill BLs. And deathball will be avoided because damage of the fungal will be the same so you will need to micro your army instead of just a moving it in a big ball.
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On November 26 2012 01:23 Resistentialism wrote:
Not that I think that this patch is necessarily doing it the right way, but I feel that forcing zerg out of the three hatch build some of the time is probably better for the game. Or even, let zerg go for three hatch, because they are doing it before the protoss really has done anything, but give the protoss builds that punish the quick 60 drones. The meta needs to shift away from auto-pilot zerg greed by a fair margin.
Makes no sense. I see lots of auto-pilot from protoss first 7 minutes or so every game in PvZ, while Z frantically removing fog of war around the map. As far as I remember, 3 hatch has been a RESPONSE to forge fast expand, not the other way around. Seed/Squirtle smartly abused the Z assumption by going gate/1-base openings. And now if a Z sees a P opening with a gate s/he will improvise on the spot.
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On November 26 2012 18:49 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 18:36 Daswollvieh wrote:
Have one of fungals effects, root or damage, work only against biological.
That way you would still prevent muta domination and have effective, but (as projectile) dodgable splash against MMM, but give vikings/voidrays a better chance to fight corruptor/BL. If they remain undamaged, they can use air-dominance, or if not rooted, they can micro against corruptors/IT etc. Also mech (esp hellions...) would gain a buff (but mainly through vikings). Protoss deathball would also be more durable which might be a bad thing.
Still, would be subtle change with some lore-logic behind it. Voidray collosus deathball was the reason the infestor DPS was doubled long ago. I can give that the current metagame has shifted from that, but it will be changing one nearly unstoppable deathball for another. But the rooting just affecting bio is a nice suggestion. ZvZ will remain unchanged, Infestor can still lock bio on place, but protoss and terran will have means to micro stalkers / vikings to kill BLs. And deathball will be avoided because damage of the fungal will be the same so you will need to micro your army instead of just a moving it in a big ball.
Void Ray Colossus won't return to the forefront of Protoss play, because Broodlord/Infestor/Roach still beats it. You can't lock down Stalkers, yes, but you can dump Infested Terrans everywhere. The real problem I see is with Phoenix, as has been mentioned earlier.
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They need to fix zerg, not fix the infestor (although IT/neural could certainly use changing)
Although I guess that's what HOTS is for.
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On November 26 2012 18:49 Eviscerador wrote:
Voidray collosus deathball was the reason the infestor DPS was doubled long ago. I can give that the current metagame has shifted from that, but it will be changing one nearly unstoppable deathball for another.
I do not believe that's correct. Infestor DPS was doubled because of blink stalkers, and David Kim specifically mentioned it in the situation report. There were days when P did not even need a Colossus to kill Z. Just mass blink stalkers. You can see the remnant of it even today when Z loses infestors carelessly. All you need to kill a Z (including brood lords) are blink stalkers when there is no Infestor.
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it would be a nice touch to make medivacs psionic units now...
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On November 26 2012 18:00 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 16:58 Rabiator wrote:On November 26 2012 10:04 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 10:01 Exquisite wrote:
In response to the infestor nerf:
I think a balance change to infestors is fair for zerg right now, but not in this way. In my opinion, infestors, high templar, and ghosts should be equal in there ability to combat each other. Templar have feedback, ghosts have snipe and emp, but with this change infestors would only really be able to use NP to use the other caster ability against them (which is pretty hard to do, and dropping IT would really only work if the opponent had sloppy control and left their casters unattended and/or unprotected). So this would make ghosts and templar ALWAYS able to easily combat infestors.
In regards to the sentry, being that it is a tier 1 unit, I think the infestor, being tier 2 should have the slight edge in value when fighting each other. But this change makes sentry pushes more difficult to stop because it limits an infestor defense to ONLY using IT.
My other reason against it is that without fungal, zerg only has one mobile detection from the overseer, whereas terran has scans, emps, AND ravens, and protoss has observers and (storm/other aoe units can at least do damage to invisible units). It just really doesn't seem fair to limit zerg in the way that they can't reveal cloaked units very well in having them ONLY rely on overseers.
As for the warp prism, I initially didn't agree with. But then I realized this: zergs would NEED to get a spire to be well defended against that kind of harassment (dont even try to argue that hydras would get used more because we all know that they wont in this matchup). But what does this do? Makes mutas a more likely midgame transition instead of going for the typical infestor pack. I do agree with the fact that infestors need to be changed, but ONLY to make the other midgame units more used. Nowadays we only see 3base zerg into infestor into broodlord with no other transition in between. Ill admit as a zerg player it is pretty boring, but if we are going to change this unit, we have to make the other lair tech units more viable, especially because in ZvT/P zerg can either go infestor or muta (nydus/drop tech is used too but is only good against a heavy econ opponent), but other than that they are fairly limited in the midgame.
This post is not in complaint of the potential changes but more to make people think that if this is really whats going to happen to infestors, then zerg WILL need some kind of buff to the less used units on lair tech because this change could be potentially as big as the sniping nerf to ghosts way back when. In Broodwar, Protoss had Feedback and Terran had EMP (both of which were never used against Zerg, but still). You don't need equivalence to balance a game. In fact, it's sometimes better to make things impossible to compare. The point is also that Feedback was on the Dark Archon, a unit which you DIDNT build lots of. In SC2 that was moved to the mass-unit High Templar. Ghosts arent that useful in combat themselves to make up for it and EMP doenst kill a unit by itself. Well, okay. Let's get down to brass tacks. In Broodwar, there was only one commonly used anti-caster spellcaster, and that was the Science Vessel. For every other race, the solution to casters was assassin units or a bulldog strategy. Running through the matchups: ZvZ lacked spellcasters. ZvT used Scourge to snipe Science Vessels. ZvP used Mutalisks to snipe Templar. TvT had no spellcasters. TvZ used Science Vessels to snipe Defilers. TvP used Science Vessels to EMP Arbiters, and Goliaths to kill them. PvP tried to storm other High Templar, but really that was just because they happened to be with the rest of the army. PvT occasionally used Stasis Field to shut down Science Vessels, but mostly just waited to catch the Terran out of position and then killed the Science Vessels with Dragoons. PvZ just killed Defilers when they ended up in range of the army. This is a very different dynamic than SC2. The obvious problem with anti-spellcaster casters on more than one race is that they will almost inevitably end up being used to counter one another, leading to cases of extreme silliness. I'm more in favor of the Broodwar model. I'd like the Ghost to be the sole anti-caster caster, and have Zerg rely on Mutalisks and brute force and Protoss rely on Phoenix and Blink Stalkers. To me, that feels much cooler. But we'll see.
Even though spellcasters in BW were strong they werent dominant as they are in SC2. There are two reasons for this:
1. The units in BW didnt stack as tighly as they do in SC2.
2. No smart cast made casting spells a lot less easy and thus balanced the power somewhat.
Due to the spread out nature of the units in BW you also had to spread out your casters for most of the time and this makes the spells less powerful, because you dont have "20 Infestors" regenerating energy in the same clump adding up the regneration rate to a pretty high amount and basically a "Fungal always ready" state. I have to agree with you that the casting system of BW was more interesting, but it wasnt only due to the units themselves, but rather the unit density and the spreading of units "here a few and there a few" caused strong spells to have less of an impact.
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On November 26 2012 17:31 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 13:03 zmansman17 wrote:On November 26 2012 07:39 DusTerr wrote:
I like the idea of FG not rooting air (still doing damage - to stay on par with other spell casters).
Maybe other AA options need a buff... but I'm not sure. Hydras on creep have the same speed as stim marines (3.375) with equal range (before upgrade). Corruptors may not be as cost efficient as vikings, but being able to make them in mass means you shouldn't ever be in an even match.
My other suggestion would be limit the range of FG or nerf IT I think if fungal didn't root air, the world would be a better place. Do you REALLY want ZvZ to be Muta Wars that you can't even micro with? The only reason BW ZvZ was remotely acceptable was that you got to watch players show off their Muta micro. We won't even get that if Infestors can't root air.
Doesn't bother me. ZvZ is my least favorite mirror as it is. Muta Wars might even be an improvement.
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On November 26 2012 18:36 Daswollvieh wrote:
Have one of fungals effects, root or damage, work only against biological.
That way you would still prevent muta domination and have effective, but (as projectile) dodgable splash against MMM, but give vikings/voidrays a better chance to fight corruptor/BL. If they remain undamaged, they can use air-dominance, or if not rooted, they can micro against corruptors/IT etc. Also mech (esp hellions...) would gain a buff (but mainly through vikings). Protoss deathball would also be more durable which might be a bad thing.
Still, would be subtle change with some lore-logic behind it.
You know this idea makes a lot of sense. Or perhaps Zergs would have to research separate fungals, one for rooting, one for damage.
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The bio idea doesn't super work - You basically get all of the problems of the the air-fungal idea, plus a bunch more: groups of stalkers + colossi. Those pushes are sort of well-known problems, and you don't want to mess with the way zergs deal with them too much.
The complaints about mutas in ZvZ are, I assume, from people who haven't read very carefully. If you buff hydralisks to the point where they can deal with phoenixes well, they are going to do _GREAT_ against mutas.
-Cross
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On November 26 2012 20:18 Xapti wrote:
They need to fix zerg, not fix the infestor (although IT/neural could certainly use changing)
Although I guess that's what HOTS is for.
+1. Zerg was designed badly in WoL and infestor as it is was just a patch for it.
I am all for more radical changes to different WoL units with HotS.
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On November 26 2012 21:49 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 18:00 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 16:58 Rabiator wrote:On November 26 2012 10:04 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 10:01 Exquisite wrote:
In response to the infestor nerf:
I think a balance change to infestors is fair for zerg right now, but not in this way. In my opinion, infestors, high templar, and ghosts should be equal in there ability to combat each other. Templar have feedback, ghosts have snipe and emp, but with this change infestors would only really be able to use NP to use the other caster ability against them (which is pretty hard to do, and dropping IT would really only work if the opponent had sloppy control and left their casters unattended and/or unprotected). So this would make ghosts and templar ALWAYS able to easily combat infestors.
In regards to the sentry, being that it is a tier 1 unit, I think the infestor, being tier 2 should have the slight edge in value when fighting each other. But this change makes sentry pushes more difficult to stop because it limits an infestor defense to ONLY using IT.
My other reason against it is that without fungal, zerg only has one mobile detection from the overseer, whereas terran has scans, emps, AND ravens, and protoss has observers and (storm/other aoe units can at least do damage to invisible units). It just really doesn't seem fair to limit zerg in the way that they can't reveal cloaked units very well in having them ONLY rely on overseers.
As for the warp prism, I initially didn't agree with. But then I realized this: zergs would NEED to get a spire to be well defended against that kind of harassment (dont even try to argue that hydras would get used more because we all know that they wont in this matchup). But what does this do? Makes mutas a more likely midgame transition instead of going for the typical infestor pack. I do agree with the fact that infestors need to be changed, but ONLY to make the other midgame units more used. Nowadays we only see 3base zerg into infestor into broodlord with no other transition in between. Ill admit as a zerg player it is pretty boring, but if we are going to change this unit, we have to make the other lair tech units more viable, especially because in ZvT/P zerg can either go infestor or muta (nydus/drop tech is used too but is only good against a heavy econ opponent), but other than that they are fairly limited in the midgame.
This post is not in complaint of the potential changes but more to make people think that if this is really whats going to happen to infestors, then zerg WILL need some kind of buff to the less used units on lair tech because this change could be potentially as big as the sniping nerf to ghosts way back when. In Broodwar, Protoss had Feedback and Terran had EMP (both of which were never used against Zerg, but still). You don't need equivalence to balance a game. In fact, it's sometimes better to make things impossible to compare. The point is also that Feedback was on the Dark Archon, a unit which you DIDNT build lots of. In SC2 that was moved to the mass-unit High Templar. Ghosts arent that useful in combat themselves to make up for it and EMP doenst kill a unit by itself. Well, okay. Let's get down to brass tacks. In Broodwar, there was only one commonly used anti-caster spellcaster, and that was the Science Vessel. For every other race, the solution to casters was assassin units or a bulldog strategy. Running through the matchups: ZvZ lacked spellcasters. ZvT used Scourge to snipe Science Vessels. ZvP used Mutalisks to snipe Templar. TvT had no spellcasters. TvZ used Science Vessels to snipe Defilers. TvP used Science Vessels to EMP Arbiters, and Goliaths to kill them. PvP tried to storm other High Templar, but really that was just because they happened to be with the rest of the army. PvT occasionally used Stasis Field to shut down Science Vessels, but mostly just waited to catch the Terran out of position and then killed the Science Vessels with Dragoons. PvZ just killed Defilers when they ended up in range of the army. This is a very different dynamic than SC2. The obvious problem with anti-spellcaster casters on more than one race is that they will almost inevitably end up being used to counter one another, leading to cases of extreme silliness. I'm more in favor of the Broodwar model. I'd like the Ghost to be the sole anti-caster caster, and have Zerg rely on Mutalisks and brute force and Protoss rely on Phoenix and Blink Stalkers. To me, that feels much cooler. But we'll see. Even though spellcasters in BW were strong they werent dominant as they are in SC2. There are two reasons for this: 1. The units in BW didnt stack as tighly as they do in SC2. 2. No smart cast made casting spells a lot less easy and thus balanced the power somewhat. Due to the spread out nature of the units in BW you also had to spread out your casters for most of the time and this makes the spells less powerful, because you dont have "20 Infestors" regenerating energy in the same clump adding up the regneration rate to a pretty high amount and basically a "Fungal always ready" state. I have to agree with you that the casting system of BW was more interesting, but it wasnt only due to the units themselves, but rather the unit density and the spreading of units "here a few and there a few" caused strong spells to have less of an impact.
Also, BW units were sprites, displayed at a maximum of 640x480. Turn your monitor to that resolution for reference, and then go blind with the size of the text. Then turn on SC2 and set it to the lowest resolution possible. There was also far less screen, since wide screen had not even hit mass market TVs when BW was released. In BW, everything was freaking huge on a tiny screen. I would love to see a mock up of a BW game at 1900x1080 for reference.
The number of units that could be displayed on screen is one of the reasons there were no “deathballs” in BW. A player was hard pressed to get 100 supply on one screen and the rewards for doing so were limited. Everything is smaller, faster and more compact in SC2. I this has way more affect on the gameplay of SC2 and smartcasting, targeting or macro mechanics. Maps are the key to better gameplay, rather than unit buffs and design.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 26 2012 18:25 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 17:31 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 13:03 zmansman17 wrote:On November 26 2012 07:39 DusTerr wrote:
I like the idea of FG not rooting air (still doing damage - to stay on par with other spell casters).
Maybe other AA options need a buff... but I'm not sure. Hydras on creep have the same speed as stim marines (3.375) with equal range (before upgrade). Corruptors may not be as cost efficient as vikings, but being able to make them in mass means you shouldn't ever be in an even match.
My other suggestion would be limit the range of FG or nerf IT I think if fungal didn't root air, the world would be a better place. Do you REALLY want ZvZ to be Muta Wars that you can't even micro with? The only reason BW ZvZ was remotely acceptable was that you got to watch players show off their Muta micro. We won't even get that if Infestors can't root air. Yup. ZvZ would become similiar to Stargate v Stargate in PvP right now and basically you HAVE to keep building more and more pheonix with little or no transistion if both sides don't make any mistakes. The difference is Stargate vs Stargate is rare right now. Muta v Muta would be the de facto standard if fungals couldn't hit air.
I dunno, spores with queens at each base shuts down small groups of mutas pretty easily (cede's map control), and hydralisks can kill mutalisks pretty easily. Infested Terrans would annihilate mutas, so they have to fly away, meaning that IT bombing bases is still a very valid tactic. Corrupters beat mutas also. I guess I just don't agree that you'd always see muta vs muta just because you can't instantly kill all of your opponent's mutalisks,
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Really wish blizzard would:
1. update us on what their thinking is
2. make changes to the map like force cross spawns, not having gold bases on antiga
3. test different ideas
4. actually make a PTR
when they just do test maps like this, it makes me feel that they will not change anything
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On November 27 2012 03:00 c0sm0naut wrote:
Really wish blizzard would:
1. update us on what their thinking is
2. make changes to the map like force cross spawns, not having gold bases on antiga
3. test different ideas
4. actually make a PTR
when they just do test maps like this, it makes me feel that they will not change anything
queen range patch/etc?
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On November 27 2012 03:00 c0sm0naut wrote:
Really wish blizzard would:
1. update us on what their thinking is
2. make changes to the map like force cross spawns, not having gold bases on antiga
3. test different ideas
4. actually make a PTR
when they just do test maps like this, it makes me feel that they will not change anything
They don't do PTR because people didn't play them. People are more likley to try out a test map than load up a different client.
Also, Blizzard has not posted anything since the patch was announced because it was THANKSGIVING WEEKEND right afterwords. Your need for updates are secondary to their need for stuffing and pie. The White House and Congress shut down for that weekend too, also requiring pie. Blizzard is catching up on emails and getting things rolling today(just like everyone else in the professional USA. My count: 215 unread emails from international clients).
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On November 27 2012 03:04 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 03:00 c0sm0naut wrote:
Really wish blizzard would:
1. update us on what their thinking is
2. make changes to the map like force cross spawns, not having gold bases on antiga
3. test different ideas
4. actually make a PTR
when they just do test maps like this, it makes me feel that they will not change anything queen range patch/etc?
raven speed boost was the same, it didn't go through. they said after watching IEM cologne(?) they felt ravens didn't need a buff
i felt the queen range patch was going to go through, even from the beginning i knew. also, wasn't it energy first? and then they tested this "different idea" for range. that is number 3 on my list. its concerning to me that they haven't tried anything else considering the laundry list of 3 base protoss all ins this patch will make stronger
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EPT
