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On November 26 2012 09:02 Acritter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:55 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass. Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant. I really think the answer here is just the Viper, to be completely honest. Roach/Hydra isn't going to be bothered by by Phoenixes, and the Viper's abilities give that army a fighting chance against Collosus compositions. Finding a balance point for WoL is going to be... god. A lot harder, anyway. The Viper is a unit that makes Colossi irrelevant. Blinding Cloud is incredible. Unfortunately, it's Hive Tech, and if we're at Hive, might as well go Infestor/Broodlord.
I don't have HotS, I thought Viper only requires Hive Tech, no other buildings. So Viper's could come out much faster than broodlords and cheaper as they don't need greater spire, they don't need melee/air attack upgrades (so carapace/ranged maybe air armor).
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On November 26 2012 09:02 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:55 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass. Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant. I really think the answer here is just the Viper, to be completely honest. Roach/Hydra isn't going to be bothered by by Phoenixes, and the Viper's abilities give that army a fighting chance against Collosus compositions. Finding a balance point for WoL is going to be... god. A lot harder, anyway. The Viper is a unit that makes Colossi irrelevant. Blinding Cloud is incredible. Unfortunately, it's Hive Tech, and if we're at Hive, might as well go Infestor/Broodlord.
We're talking about a post-huge Infestor nerf world here.
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On November 26 2012 09:06 Crosswind wrote:
Fair criticism from ACritter. You are arguing that counters which do not limit the mobility of an air unit aren't counters unless they're disproportionate in terms of damage.
I guess I'd point at the blink stalker, versus the mutalisk, as an example of an anti-harass tool which is neither disproportionate in terms of damage, or mobility-limiting. Instead, the blink stalker has both good mobility, and reasonable damage. A half and half solution.
On creep, Hydras have pretty good mobility. I would not be opposed to making it much better mobility. Right now they do about 1.5x the damage of a marine. Give them bonus damage versus air, and they then have good mobility and better damage. Do they not, then, satisfy your requirements for a viable anti-air counter?
-Cross
I did not say limit. I said NEGATE. As in, make irrelevant. Blink has 8 Range. The Stalker has 6 range. That means it has an effective range of 14. That's not to mention the increase to movement speed by Blink, or the ability to ignore cliffs/inconvenient structures. This means that the Blink Stalker NEGATES the mobility of air units by being so incredibly mobile that it outmatches them. That is why the Blink Stalker is effective anti-air. It makes the mobility of the Mutalisk irrelevant. Similarly, Storm makes the mobility of the Mutalisk irrelevant by allowing you to "store" large amounts of damage easily at each expansion in the form of High Templar, and Warp Prisms (one of the best Mutalisk counters) make the mobility irrelevant by drawing them back to the other side of the map, ceding map control to the Protoss. My favorite Mutalisk counter is called just attacking them, which negates the mobility by forcing them to fight in close quarters, where movement is irrelevant.
EDIT: removed some of my invective. I apologize for that. It was crude of me. Also, please note that the Marine required the support of the Missile Turret, and cost no gas. It's a much cheaper unit than the Hydralisk. If the Hydralisk was mineral-only, it might work. Otherwise, Spores are just way better.
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On November 26 2012 09:11 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 09:02 Acritter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:55 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass. Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant. I really think the answer here is just the Viper, to be completely honest. Roach/Hydra isn't going to be bothered by by Phoenixes, and the Viper's abilities give that army a fighting chance against Collosus compositions. Finding a balance point for WoL is going to be... god. A lot harder, anyway. The Viper is a unit that makes Colossi irrelevant. Blinding Cloud is incredible. Unfortunately, it's Hive Tech, and if we're at Hive, might as well go Infestor/Broodlord. I don't have HotS, I thought Viper only requires Hive Tech, no other buildings. So Viper's could come out much faster than broodlords and cheaper as they don't need greater spire, they don't need melee/air attack upgrades (so carapace/ranged maybe air armor).
Broodlords are good. Like, really good. That makes a lot of the other nitty-gritty details a bit irrelevant. I'd like to see a Zerg player try going for Roach/Broodlord/no Infestor to see how well it trades with Protoss (with the understanding that the Protoss won't just spam Void Rays). Obviously it doesn't match the real game very well, but it would be cool to see.
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On November 21 2012 12:13 Jermstuddog wrote:
Hate it.
Hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it.
Everything that has been wrong with Blizzards balance philosophy rolled up into one megapatch of retardation.
My interest in playing this broken and boring game has been waning for the past month or so, I think this is the nail in the coffin.
Really makes me sad because SC2 could and should be such a great game, but Blizz seems to have no fucking clue what to do with their game.
Then don't play. How is it not a good game if it is the most popular RTS currently (and will remain that way for years) out there. Blizzard works really hard to make the game what it is today: fun, competitive, AND fair. Boo hoo they didn't perfectly make the game to your desires. Thousands of people play this game. I think they've done a pretty good job on the multiplayer aspects of the game.
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On November 26 2012 09:12 Acritter wrote:
I did not say limit. I said NEGATE. As in, make irrelevant. Blink has 8 Range. The Stalker has 6 range. That means it has an effective range of 14. That's not to mention the increase to movement speed by Blink, or the ability to ignore cliffs/inconvenient structures. This means that the Blink Stalker NEGATES the mobility of air units by being so incredibly mobile that it outmatches them. That is why the Blink Stalker is effective anti-air. It makes the mobility of the Mutalisk irrelevant. Similarly, Storm makes the mobility of the Mutalisk irrelevant by allowing you to "store" large amounts of damage easily at each expansion in the form of High Templar, and Warp Prisms (one of the best Mutalisk counters) make the mobility irrelevant by drawing them back to the other side of the map, ceding map control to the Protoss. My favorite Mutalisk counter is called just attacking them, which negates the mobility by forcing them to fight in close quarters, where movement is irrelevant.
EDIT: removed some of my invective. I apologize for that. It was crude of me. Also, please note that the Marine required the support of the Missile Turret, and cost no gas. It's a much cheaper unit than the Hydralisk. If the Hydralisk was mineral-only, it might work. Otherwise, Spores are just way better.
No problem, I didn't manage to read it until the invective was gone! =)
But to say that the unit has an effective range of 14 isn't really true, because of the cooldown on blink. Mutas can get from point A to point B faster than blink stalkers can, assuming that distance is reasonably farther than 1 blink. The blink stalker doesn't negate mutalisk movement - it's just a unit that has a really effective first step of speed...combined with super-underwhelming damage.
Seems like you're being a bit binary - something either has to make irrelevant the speed of the air unit, OR be so cost-effective as to be viable to put in every base. I think this is a bit simplistic - why couldn't the Hydra occupy a space where it is very cost effective, and also very mobile, while not being necessarily negating (to be honest, I'm not even sure what you mean by negating mobility. The units are still mobile. It's just a question of "under what circumstances can you force the units to engage" - the blink stalker can force air units to engage in more circumstances, but it's certainly not invincible.).
I guess I'd also like to put up, for the record, the context of this conversation:
Cross: Hey, if you just make fungal not affect air units, it seems like it solves a whole lot of problems.
Other People: Phoenixes will kill zerg, totally.
Idra: _Totally_.
Cross: What would we have to do to make Hydralisks a viable anti-harass unit to deal with Phoenixes?
Idra: Lair Tech Speed Buff, maybe anti-air damage.
You: The Hydralisk is a fundamentally flawed unit, as an anti-harass unit. All successful anti-harass units either negate mobility (the key of harass), or are disproportionately cost effective, such that you can just leave them around at a base.
I think that speed + anti-air damage is a fine (and relatively unique) niche for hydras which would deal with air harass. But I'm certainly up for other suggestions.
-Cross
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On November 26 2012 09:32 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 09:12 Acritter wrote:
I did not say limit. I said NEGATE. As in, make irrelevant. Blink has 8 Range. The Stalker has 6 range. That means it has an effective range of 14. That's not to mention the increase to movement speed by Blink, or the ability to ignore cliffs/inconvenient structures. This means that the Blink Stalker NEGATES the mobility of air units by being so incredibly mobile that it outmatches them. That is why the Blink Stalker is effective anti-air. It makes the mobility of the Mutalisk irrelevant. Similarly, Storm makes the mobility of the Mutalisk irrelevant by allowing you to "store" large amounts of damage easily at each expansion in the form of High Templar, and Warp Prisms (one of the best Mutalisk counters) make the mobility irrelevant by drawing them back to the other side of the map, ceding map control to the Protoss. My favorite Mutalisk counter is called just attacking them, which negates the mobility by forcing them to fight in close quarters, where movement is irrelevant.
EDIT: removed some of my invective. I apologize for that. It was crude of me. Also, please note that the Marine required the support of the Missile Turret, and cost no gas. It's a much cheaper unit than the Hydralisk. If the Hydralisk was mineral-only, it might work. Otherwise, Spores are just way better. No problem, I didn't manage to read it until the invective was gone! =) But to say that the unit has an effective range of 14 isn't really true, because of the cooldown on blink. Mutas can get from point A to point B faster than blink stalkers can, assuming that distance is reasonably farther than 1 blink. The blink stalker doesn't negate mutalisk movement - it's just a unit that has a really effective first step of speed...combined with super-underwhelming damage. Seems like you're being a bit binary - something either has to make irrelevant the speed of the air unit, OR be so cost-effective as to be viable to put in every base. I think this is a bit simplistic - why couldn't the Hydra occupy a space where it is very cost effective, and also very mobile, while not being necessarily negating (to be honest, I'm not even sure what you mean by negating mobility. The units are still mobile. It's just a question of "under what circumstances can you force the units to engage" - the blink stalker can force air units to engage in more circumstances, but it's certainly not invincible.). I guess I'd also like to put up, for the record, the context of this conversation: Cross: Hey, if you just make fungal not affect air units, it seems like it solves a whole lot of problems. Other People: Phoenixes will kill zerg, totally. Idra: _Totally_. Cross: What would we have to do to make Hydralisks a viable anti-harass unit to deal with Phoenixes? Idra: Lair Tech Speed Buff, maybe anti-air damage. You: The Hydralisk is a fundamentally flawed unit, as an anti-harass unit. All successful anti-harass units either negate mobility (the key of harass), or are disproportionately cost effective, such that you can just leave them around at a base. I think that speed + anti-air damage is a fine (and relatively unique) niche for hydras which would deal with air harass. But I'm certainly up for other suggestions. -Cross
I'm using the effective range definition as it's been used in DotA to good effect. It's the range at which the unit becomes relevant. Obviously, Stalkers are best at 8 or less range away, but they're still relevant as far away as 14. This is why they're able to handle air units, and it's why Blink is so crucial in PvT: it more than doubles the range that you can take your Stalkers away from your base without being afraid.
And to be perfectly frank, the reason that I'm being binary is because it's true. Actually, it's even more tilted towards a single option than anything. Marines aren't as much a counter to air as they are able to put on pressure while defending themselves from air. The Missile Turrets are the real answer to Muta harass, and the Science Vessel is the true counter (you can't run away from Irradiate). Hydralisks have such a limited effective range and such limited mobility that they can't hope to handle air units. In order to make them good against air, they have to gain a significant advantage in chasing down air units. Otherwise they remain as good against air as they were in Broodwar: not at all. Mutas walked all over them. An alternative is to make them a powerful core army unit that can shoot up, which is what I'm recommending. This makes them take the same role as the Marine: they force engagements at the enemy base, and defend themselves against air. But this is all stuff I've said before. There is no current niche that the Hydralisk can fill that is not already firmly occupied by the Roach, the Queen, the Spore Crawler, and the Corruptor. In order to enter the fold as a proper unit, it needs to be changed to fit a new niche. Right now it's stuck in the middle of everything, and ends up with nothing to have of its own.
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In response to the infestor nerf:
I think a balance change to infestors is fair for zerg right now, but not in this way. In my opinion, infestors, high templar, and ghosts should be equal in there ability to combat each other. Templar have feedback, ghosts have snipe and emp, but with this change infestors would only really be able to use NP to use the other caster ability against them (which is pretty hard to do, and dropping IT would really only work if the opponent had sloppy control and left their casters unattended and/or unprotected). So this would make ghosts and templar ALWAYS able to easily combat infestors.
In regards to the sentry, being that it is a tier 1 unit, I think the infestor, being tier 2 should have the slight edge in value when fighting each other. But this change makes sentry pushes more difficult to stop because it limits an infestor defense to ONLY using IT.
My other reason against it is that without fungal, zerg only has one mobile detection from the overseer, whereas terran has scans, emps, AND ravens, and protoss has observers and (storm/other aoe units can at least do damage to invisible units). It just really doesn't seem fair to limit zerg in the way that they can't reveal cloaked units very well in having them ONLY rely on overseers.
As for the warp prism, I initially didn't agree with. But then I realized this: zergs would NEED to get a spire to be well defended against that kind of harassment (dont even try to argue that hydras would get used more because we all know that they wont in this matchup). But what does this do? Makes mutas a more likely midgame transition instead of going for the typical infestor pack. I do agree with the fact that infestors need to be changed, but ONLY to make the other midgame units more used. Nowadays we only see 3base zerg into infestor into broodlord with no other transition in between. Ill admit as a zerg player it is pretty boring, but if we are going to change this unit, we have to make the other lair tech units more viable, especially because in ZvT/P zerg can either go infestor or muta (nydus/drop tech is used too but is only good against a heavy econ opponent), but other than that they are fairly limited in the midgame.
This post is not in complaint of the potential changes but more to make people think that if this is really whats going to happen to infestors, then zerg WILL need some kind of buff to the less used units on lair tech because this change could be potentially as big as the sniping nerf to ghosts way back when.
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On November 26 2012 10:01 Exquisite wrote:
In response to the infestor nerf:
I think a balance change to infestors is fair for zerg right now, but not in this way. In my opinion, infestors, high templar, and ghosts should be equal in there ability to combat each other. Templar have feedback, ghosts have snipe and emp, but with this change infestors would only really be able to use NP to use the other caster ability against them (which is pretty hard to do, and dropping IT would really only work if the opponent had sloppy control and left their casters unattended and/or unprotected). So this would make ghosts and templar ALWAYS able to easily combat infestors.
In regards to the sentry, being that it is a tier 1 unit, I think the infestor, being tier 2 should have the slight edge in value when fighting each other. But this change makes sentry pushes more difficult to stop because it limits an infestor defense to ONLY using IT.
My other reason against it is that without fungal, zerg only has one mobile detection from the overseer, whereas terran has scans, emps, AND ravens, and protoss has observers and (storm/other aoe units can at least do damage to invisible units). It just really doesn't seem fair to limit zerg in the way that they can't reveal cloaked units very well in having them ONLY rely on overseers.
As for the warp prism, I initially didn't agree with. But then I realized this: zergs would NEED to get a spire to be well defended against that kind of harassment (dont even try to argue that hydras would get used more because we all know that they wont in this matchup). But what does this do? Makes mutas a more likely midgame transition instead of going for the typical infestor pack. I do agree with the fact that infestors need to be changed, but ONLY to make the other midgame units more used. Nowadays we only see 3base zerg into infestor into broodlord with no other transition in between. Ill admit as a zerg player it is pretty boring, but if we are going to change this unit, we have to make the other lair tech units more viable, especially because in ZvT/P zerg can either go infestor or muta (nydus/drop tech is used too but is only good against a heavy econ opponent), but other than that they are fairly limited in the midgame.
This post is not in complaint of the potential changes but more to make people think that if this is really whats going to happen to infestors, then zerg WILL need some kind of buff to the less used units on lair tech because this change could be potentially as big as the sniping nerf to ghosts way back when.
In Broodwar, Protoss had Feedback and Terran had EMP (both of which were never used against Zerg, but still). You don't need equivalence to balance a game. In fact, it's sometimes better to make things impossible to compare.
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On November 26 2012 09:11 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 09:02 Acritter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:55 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass. Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant. I really think the answer here is just the Viper, to be completely honest. Roach/Hydra isn't going to be bothered by by Phoenixes, and the Viper's abilities give that army a fighting chance against Collosus compositions. Finding a balance point for WoL is going to be... god. A lot harder, anyway. The Viper is a unit that makes Colossi irrelevant. Blinding Cloud is incredible. Unfortunately, it's Hive Tech, and if we're at Hive, might as well go Infestor/Broodlord. I don't have HotS, I thought Viper only requires Hive Tech, no other buildings. So Viper's could come out much faster than broodlords and cheaper as they don't need greater spire, they don't need melee/air attack upgrades (so carapace/ranged maybe air armor).
Considering all the units except the drone require another building i doubt this very much.
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On November 26 2012 10:27 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 09:11 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 09:02 Acritter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 26 2012 08:59 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 08:55 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:46 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:43 Acritter wrote:On November 26 2012 08:40 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On November 26 2012 08:26 kiklion wrote:On November 26 2012 08:17 Crosswind wrote:On November 26 2012 08:12 kiklion wrote:
If hydra's had that much speed off creep, they may upset balance in ZvT where half the map is covered in creep. So, there seems to be a common thread in non-pro comments here: HEY, this thing that nobody uses ever might become overpowered. Look, I'm all for theorycrafting. But generally, something is not used because it is underpowered. Powering it up is never, necessarily, a bad thing. I'm super-excited for the day that ZvT starts to involve Hydras. To the bevy of phoenix v. hydra complainers - Yeah. We need to make hydras better. They are used in no professional non-ZvZ games now. If we make them better, they will do better versus phoenixes. This seems sorta straightforward? -Cross The issue also lies with the binary nature of grav beam. With smaller numbers where the hydra's can't kill the phoenix's before the spell goes off, the phoenix's can kill the hydras without taking damage (shield regens) since unit's can't attack while beamed. I did not mean for the possible OP nature of speedy hydras in ZvT to be a negative, just wanted to see if anyone had a thought as to if it would affect the match up greatly, or if speed isn't the reason why zerg don't currentlly use hydra;s in ZvT. I think that if the hydra speed buff makes it fast enough that they aren't a complete waste against collosus death balls, then using hydra's as a main ground to air unit for zerg can be done. Right now, you can go hydra to hold of phoenix's, but you are just delaying your death when the deathball comes as you cannot control the position when half of your army is fast and the squishy ones are slow. So I do see speed making hydras useful in the mid-game, but I don't see how it will help fight off phoenix's when the issue is the binary nature of grav beam making it either one sided for phoenixs or one sided for hydralisks. If we consider Hydralisks to be the counter to phoenix's for zerg, like marines are to muta's, then phoenix's should not want to fight Hydra's unless they vastly out number the hydra's. At least in my posts, I'm mostly thinking about Phoenix v Hydra as a harass unit v counter-harass unit, not as a straight fight. How do you make Hydras a viable counter to small numbers of Phoenixes harassing you without weakening Zerg against Collo pushes? You have to make a small number of Hydralisks so potent against Phoenix that you can just leave a couple at each base and consider yourself safe. We already have that, though. It's called the Queen and the Spore Crawler, and they cost no gas and minimal supply. This brings back the point that the Hydra is fundamentally flawed in its current role. I'm thinking more about army defense. If I try to take map control, what's to stop five Phoenixes from flying over my army, lifting my Infestors and picking them off for free? Zergs can't be expected to slow-push behind Spore Crawlers with Roach/Ling/Infestor. A speed boost lets you keep the Hydras with your army more easily, protecting it from Phoenix harass. Then it goes back to increasing the damage so much that it's just absurd. We're talking the level of one Hydralisk doing the same damage as two or even three stimmed Marines. That, or giving them Concussive Shells. As I've said, the counter to air units is something that makes their mobility irrelevant. I really think the answer here is just the Viper, to be completely honest. Roach/Hydra isn't going to be bothered by by Phoenixes, and the Viper's abilities give that army a fighting chance against Collosus compositions. Finding a balance point for WoL is going to be... god. A lot harder, anyway. The Viper is a unit that makes Colossi irrelevant. Blinding Cloud is incredible. Unfortunately, it's Hive Tech, and if we're at Hive, might as well go Infestor/Broodlord. I don't have HotS, I thought Viper only requires Hive Tech, no other buildings. So Viper's could come out much faster than broodlords and cheaper as they don't need greater spire, they don't need melee/air attack upgrades (so carapace/ranged maybe air armor). Considering all the units except the drone require another building i doubt this very much.
Overlords and Overseers don't require anything else either. And the Viper was originally planned to replace to the Overseer.
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On November 26 2012 10:04 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 10:01 Exquisite wrote:
In response to the infestor nerf:
I think a balance change to infestors is fair for zerg right now, but not in this way. In my opinion, infestors, high templar, and ghosts should be equal in there ability to combat each other. Templar have feedback, ghosts have snipe and emp, but with this change infestors would only really be able to use NP to use the other caster ability against them (which is pretty hard to do, and dropping IT would really only work if the opponent had sloppy control and left their casters unattended and/or unprotected). So this would make ghosts and templar ALWAYS able to easily combat infestors.
In regards to the sentry, being that it is a tier 1 unit, I think the infestor, being tier 2 should have the slight edge in value when fighting each other. But this change makes sentry pushes more difficult to stop because it limits an infestor defense to ONLY using IT.
My other reason against it is that without fungal, zerg only has one mobile detection from the overseer, whereas terran has scans, emps, AND ravens, and protoss has observers and (storm/other aoe units can at least do damage to invisible units). It just really doesn't seem fair to limit zerg in the way that they can't reveal cloaked units very well in having them ONLY rely on overseers.
As for the warp prism, I initially didn't agree with. But then I realized this: zergs would NEED to get a spire to be well defended against that kind of harassment (dont even try to argue that hydras would get used more because we all know that they wont in this matchup). But what does this do? Makes mutas a more likely midgame transition instead of going for the typical infestor pack. I do agree with the fact that infestors need to be changed, but ONLY to make the other midgame units more used. Nowadays we only see 3base zerg into infestor into broodlord with no other transition in between. Ill admit as a zerg player it is pretty boring, but if we are going to change this unit, we have to make the other lair tech units more viable, especially because in ZvT/P zerg can either go infestor or muta (nydus/drop tech is used too but is only good against a heavy econ opponent), but other than that they are fairly limited in the midgame.
This post is not in complaint of the potential changes but more to make people think that if this is really whats going to happen to infestors, then zerg WILL need some kind of buff to the less used units on lair tech because this change could be potentially as big as the sniping nerf to ghosts way back when. In Broodwar, Protoss had Feedback and Terran had EMP (both of which were never used against Zerg, but still). You don't need equivalence to balance a game. In fact, it's sometimes better to make things impossible to compare.
I'd go further, its not sometimes better, it's essential. Or you may as well have just one race and it'll always be red vs blue. This is the constant cycle of balance arguments though, "I want my race to have a mirror of your races advantage whilst keeping all of it's own".
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On November 26 2012 02:55 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 02:45 Rossie wrote:On November 25 2012 18:14 ElBlanco wrote:
Go back and have a look at the numbers when terran were dominating. 20 players in code S out of 32 and something 6 of the top 8. This season where zerg are apparently just as dominant they had less players than terran in code S, 2 more in the round of 16 and equal numbers in the round of 8 and 4. They also are heavily outnumbered in code A. How is that the same level of dominance? And currently it's 8 out of 16 Zergs in the Ro16, and 2 Protosses. Outside of Korea, it's even worse. Last season you had 10 Zergs in the to 20 in both NA and EU GM ladders. The cold, hard truth that Zerg players don't want to hear is that Protoss players of the same level are way, way, waaaay better than them. Zerg is fundamentally an A-move race. You spam roaches and attack, and maybe flank a little if you're feeling creative. Protoss is about delicate micro and narrow timing windows, so it's only natural that its skill level will be much higher than Zerg's. Whenever someone start using these words "The cold, hard truth is.." I know i'm gonna have a good time, I wasnt disapointed. The cold hard truth is that protoss player being better than everyone and protoss being the hardest race and about "Delicate micro and narrow timing windows (lol)" is all in your head Ps : A single 8z in a ro16 means nothing, there was 7 protoss in the ro16 in S2 and a PvP final in S3
We're on season 5 now bro..thats a huge progression in the meta game.
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On November 26 2012 10:27 Assirra wrote:
Considering all the units except the drone require another building i doubt this very much.
Nope. Vipers only require Hive to be spawned.
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On November 25 2012 05:55 plogamer wrote:
As a spectator, what's most important isn't win rates, imo. It is how players win, rather than how much.
Zerg victories are practically curb-stomps. Once a Terran or Protoss player is behind, there is absolutely little they can do to come back. When Terrans/Protoss win in such a fashion, its almost always against non-brood/infestor army.
I'm just sick of watching top-notch players look like they're gold league when they have to face BL/infestor composition.
/edit
Let's say two players are evenly matched in terms of skills and we have a very back and forth mid-game. Then broodlords show up and non-zergs are playing with a hand tied up.
This. I actually feel bad for my Protoss brethren because Protoss late game just doesn't match up versus Zerg late game (the same goes for Terran but not as much). If Protoss don't have a Mothership, it's gg. But even if they do, they must land a vortex. But even if they land a good vortex, the Zerg is just fine with the 200 re-max and the wall of spines.
Meanwhile, if at any point, Protoss's army gets destroyed it's practically gg. I think this goes along with what you are talking about.
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On November 26 2012 07:39 DusTerr wrote:
I like the idea of FG not rooting air (still doing damage - to stay on par with other spell casters).
Maybe other AA options need a buff... but I'm not sure. Hydras on creep have the same speed as stim marines (3.375) with equal range (before upgrade). Corruptors may not be as cost efficient as vikings, but being able to make them in mass means you shouldn't ever be in an even match.
My other suggestion would be limit the range of FG or nerf IT
I think if fungal didn't root air, the world would be a better place.
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A buff for Terrans? I'll believe it when it becomes implemented.
The FG nerf has been a long time coming. It's odd how much versatility and power an Infestor has with their spell kit. No other race can mass such a large amount of support-casters and expect to win a fight.
However I do think the nerf is a bit drastic. Rather than making Psionics immune, couldn't they have made it so they no longer become rooted by FG? It'll give Ghosts and HT a fighting chance to actually cast their spells rather than be chain-fungled to death.
The FG nerf doesn't change a lot of the issues it has, such as chain-fungling but it at least gives the other race's a much stronger opportunity to counter.
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On November 26 2012 10:04 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 10:01 Exquisite wrote:
In response to the infestor nerf:
I think a balance change to infestors is fair for zerg right now, but not in this way. In my opinion, infestors, high templar, and ghosts should be equal in there ability to combat each other. Templar have feedback, ghosts have snipe and emp, but with this change infestors would only really be able to use NP to use the other caster ability against them (which is pretty hard to do, and dropping IT would really only work if the opponent had sloppy control and left their casters unattended and/or unprotected). So this would make ghosts and templar ALWAYS able to easily combat infestors.
In regards to the sentry, being that it is a tier 1 unit, I think the infestor, being tier 2 should have the slight edge in value when fighting each other. But this change makes sentry pushes more difficult to stop because it limits an infestor defense to ONLY using IT.
My other reason against it is that without fungal, zerg only has one mobile detection from the overseer, whereas terran has scans, emps, AND ravens, and protoss has observers and (storm/other aoe units can at least do damage to invisible units). It just really doesn't seem fair to limit zerg in the way that they can't reveal cloaked units very well in having them ONLY rely on overseers.
As for the warp prism, I initially didn't agree with. But then I realized this: zergs would NEED to get a spire to be well defended against that kind of harassment (dont even try to argue that hydras would get used more because we all know that they wont in this matchup). But what does this do? Makes mutas a more likely midgame transition instead of going for the typical infestor pack. I do agree with the fact that infestors need to be changed, but ONLY to make the other midgame units more used. Nowadays we only see 3base zerg into infestor into broodlord with no other transition in between. Ill admit as a zerg player it is pretty boring, but if we are going to change this unit, we have to make the other lair tech units more viable, especially because in ZvT/P zerg can either go infestor or muta (nydus/drop tech is used too but is only good against a heavy econ opponent), but other than that they are fairly limited in the midgame.
This post is not in complaint of the potential changes but more to make people think that if this is really whats going to happen to infestors, then zerg WILL need some kind of buff to the less used units on lair tech because this change could be potentially as big as the sniping nerf to ghosts way back when. In Broodwar, Protoss had Feedback and Terran had EMP (both of which were never used against Zerg, but still). You don't need equivalence to balance a game. In fact, it's sometimes better to make things impossible to compare.
The point is also that Feedback was on the Dark Archon, a unit which you DIDNT build lots of. In SC2 that was moved to the mass-unit High Templar. Ghosts arent that useful in combat themselves to make up for it and EMP doenst kill a unit by itself.
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On November 26 2012 13:03 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:39 DusTerr wrote:
I like the idea of FG not rooting air (still doing damage - to stay on par with other spell casters).
Maybe other AA options need a buff... but I'm not sure. Hydras on creep have the same speed as stim marines (3.375) with equal range (before upgrade). Corruptors may not be as cost efficient as vikings, but being able to make them in mass means you shouldn't ever be in an even match.
My other suggestion would be limit the range of FG or nerf IT I think if fungal didn't root air, the world would be a better place.
Do you REALLY want ZvZ to be Muta Wars that you can't even micro with? The only reason BW ZvZ was remotely acceptable was that you got to watch players show off their Muta micro. We won't even get that if Infestors can't root air.
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EPT
