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Eclypsia cheating on stream audience - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1st_Panzer_Div.
Profile Joined November 2010
United States621 Posts
October 10 2012 19:31 GMT
#301
I read the OP and the response, and it seems really dishonest, in an industry that money/sponsors revolve around viewer numbers, to artificially inflate viewer numbers... drastically so in this case.
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
October 10 2012 19:34 GMT
#302
On October 11 2012 04:08 mememolly wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2012 03:40 howLiN wrote:
This is actually a pretty cool marketing strategy. People are really just flipping their shit because it's Eclypsia.


true, if this was EG people would be all "oh great marketing once again EG, more teams need to do this etc"


no one would say that.

you realize even when EG makes a good marketing move people bitch

if EG did this people would be shitting so hard over it

generating fake stream views is just bad, and if its not fraud its fraudulent
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
October 10 2012 19:50 GMT
#303
On October 11 2012 04:31 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
I read the OP and the response, and it seems really dishonest, in an industry that money/sponsors revolve around viewer numbers, to artificially inflate viewer numbers... drastically so in this case.


Well op need to be updated with Eclypsia posts. Too many people thinks that its fraud, whereas its only marketing.
nGBeast
Profile Joined July 2010
United States914 Posts
October 10 2012 19:52 GMT
#304
You know whats even better? If this was MVP or any other korean team people wouldn't mind. I don't agree with what they are doing but lets be honest, nobody would care if a korean team did this to boost their viewings.
bonse
Profile Joined July 2011
125 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 19:53:40
October 10 2012 19:53 GMT
#305
This isn't about fake stream views, it's about advertising the stream to a potential audience.
If they would have put the stream on, for example, an animal rights website, where nobody would be interested in esports, than you could have a point. But the stream was embedded into entertainment websites, that have the same target audience as starcraft streams. And if you want esports to grow, that's the audience that you have to attract. If the only audience of SC2 esport will be SC2 players then esports will wither and die, as people leave SC2 or are put off by boorish snobs.
Hondelul
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
1999 Posts
October 10 2012 19:53 GMT
#306
From the official statement on Eclypsia http://www.eclypsia.com/en/ec/news-3297.html
How did Eclypsia do this hocus-pocus?

We bought advertising space just like every other eSports website or general website does. The only difference is that we don't put a banner, we just put in a livestream, a simple idea. We did it with the agreement of the advertisers and the distributor’s platform.

If advertisers are ok and EC pays for it, I really don´t see a problem. But I dislike streams autoloading when I enter a site.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 10 2012 19:53 GMT
#307
On October 11 2012 03:39 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I use adblock and it is still visible to me, so the adblock theory is out the window. I think that maybe EC may have changed things around and suddenly made it visible with autoplay/mute due to this thread. Last night when I checked, it was visible with autoplay but no mute. Now it is autoplay with mute.



Do you feel it would be okay for all viewers to use Adblock and for no streamers to make any money?
Sejanus
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Lithuania550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 20:01:04
October 10 2012 19:59 GMT
#308

lets be honest, nobody would care if a korean team did this to boost their viewings.

I would care. I would care even more than I do now, because Korean teams are solid and respected, as opposed to Eclypsia and the likes, more like a joke than a team.

There, you are wrong.
Friends don't let friends massacre civilians
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 10 2012 19:59 GMT
#309
I just can't fathom this community jumping to conclusions and condemning a person or organization before hearing the other side of the story. I mean it's never happened before and if it had, we are intelligent enough to learn that lesson and change our behavior. That's what separates us as RTS players from people who play easy games - we're just so smart!
Stutters695
Profile Joined July 2012
2610 Posts
October 10 2012 20:04 GMT
#310
On October 11 2012 04:53 Hondelul wrote:
From the official statement on Eclypsia http://www.eclypsia.com/en/ec/news-3297.html
Show nested quote +
How did Eclypsia do this hocus-pocus?

We bought advertising space just like every other eSports website or general website does. The only difference is that we don't put a banner, we just put in a livestream, a simple idea. We did it with the agreement of the advertisers and the distributor’s platform.

If advertisers are ok and EC pays for it, I really don´t see a problem. But I dislike streams autoloading when I enter a site.


My only concern is that could be a bit misleading if they mean the distributors (websites) that they embedded the stream on and not the company who pays for ad impressions from the stream. Of course if the muted stream doesn't show ads the point is moot but this isn't something only Eclypsia is doing. I've gotten a few ads from those sites that redirect after x seconds with many streams from the FGC. Sometimes 3 on one page and those did run ads through twitch if left open.
fishinguy
Profile Joined November 2010
Russian Federation798 Posts
October 10 2012 20:08 GMT
#311
It would only become a problem if everyone starts doing it which would seriously annoy the sponsors, but ATM it is just dishonest, but I don't think there is any harm caused by it apart from some negative publicity towards Eclypsia.
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
October 10 2012 20:12 GMT
#312
On October 11 2012 03:59 bonse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2012 03:47 TheRabidDeer wrote:
On October 11 2012 03:40 howLiN wrote:
This is actually a pretty cool marketing strategy. People are really just flipping their shit because it's Eclypsia.

It isnt marketing if nobody sees what youre marketing. It is fraud.

You just said a couple of posts above that the stream is "visible" so why now you say that nobody sees the stream?

It is visible now, however it may not have been at the time of the original posting, which is when everybody had issues with it. People would have 0 issues if it didnt autoplay, the autoplay thing is a bit sketchy for me personally.
On October 11 2012 04:53 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2012 03:39 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I use adblock and it is still visible to me, so the adblock theory is out the window. I think that maybe EC may have changed things around and suddenly made it visible with autoplay/mute due to this thread. Last night when I checked, it was visible with autoplay but no mute. Now it is autoplay with mute.



Do you feel it would be okay for all viewers to use Adblock and for no streamers to make any money?

Yes. I dont know why you are asking me this though.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 10 2012 20:13 GMT
#313
On October 11 2012 05:08 fishinguy wrote:
It would only become a problem if everyone starts doing it which would seriously annoy the sponsors, but ATM it is just dishonest, but I don't think there is any harm caused by it apart from some negative publicity towards Eclypsia.



The act of advertising is dishonest?
Enearde
Profile Joined February 2011
France265 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 20:56:13
October 10 2012 20:44 GMT
#314
+ Show Spoiler +
Hi all,

My nickname is Ruurk, i'm Eclypsia's developing manager. This post is a response to team-aAa allegations.

I'm writing this today because i think it's time for me to communicate with you and put some lights on our practices that you judged doubtful.

Everything started in April 2012, everyone of you remember that we thought("I" thought) of making Eclyspia's coming out a false April foul, our newly recruited players (less than two weeks) would say they didn't get paid by Eclypsia. Of course, given the fact that they were very new recruits and the date of the claim (April the 1st), we were convinced that the community would have laughed and say "lol, nice joke, that's an April Foul etc... Sadly for us, a lot were fouled and believed it and called the joke unethical. We truly are sorry, we simply wanted to make you laugh, we are gamers before everything else like you (T/N: the community).

Furthermore, i would like to remind you that all our players were informed and Welmu (the one who made the false claim) still is with Eclypsia, i think he is happy to be with us and he didn't have any issue with us up to now.

This April foul case being closed...we hired a Head Manager or Communication Manager, as you want to call him, called Retox who was from E-Sahara before, Blast etc... The work load was heavy to try to earn the community back so he talked to me about a meme contest that would have shown we have self derision. This was our biggest fail and Retox was fired. It was not only because of this but it was the main cause.

About the SC2 players who parted ways with us, we had a deadline (6 months to Korea) but they didn't want to wait. They were in a hurry, i can understand that (T/N: might be more "impatient" than "in a hurry but it's not very clear), and decided to resign. We agreed on that, everyone was paid and we all were happy about the patnership. Beside, Eclypsia lost a computer in this case that was never returned by the person concerned.

For the Dota 2 team, Mystress sold us 5k live viewers and 10 hours of stream daily for a € 5.5k salary. Only having 40 viewers, the whole thing turned to be a drama et she thought that given our image "they (T/N: the players?) had us by the balls" has she said. We didn't yield. The players and Mystress went to an other team where they rised the same issues but it was Eclypsia public image that took the hit.

While that was happening, Eclypsia decide to redirect itself. The basic business was to pay streamers a salary, make them stream several hours a day and create a video game oriented TV. This was a resounding failure given that the players wanted to get the money their stream was generating. Sadly at this point Eclypsia didn't have any sponsor so we couldn't compete with the salary our competitors offered.

Therefore, with SarenS (eSport manager) and others, we revised our business plan. Three major axis emerged: The Teams, the Stream and the News Portal.

We rearranged our budgets, favoring the News Portal and the webTV while maintaining the Teams without overspending on the transfert market.

The budget was mainly allocated to the WebTV and that went great. We created good formats like the Dual Fighting (an SC2 showmatch with 100€ in cash prize), the LOL Strategy Cup (a showmatch KOTH) and the Flash eSport.

Our operations (T/N: for lack of a better work in my mouth, sorry) became profitables. In fact, for 100€ invested we had 150 to 160€ in return, not really enough to profit because of the salaries but we were rather happy with it, it was the first time we did have a profitable return on our investments.

And then...

Pomf & Thud, from Iron Squid, arrived with a budget and a project that resulted on a lot of people resigning from us, the news writers resigned, our streamers too, it was an hecatomb.

Millenium, entrenched on the french market for so long, didn't feel a thing compared to us, already 1st on every games queries on Google for several years meanwhile aAa has a loyal community.

We didn't have much choice. We either had to scounge on other's cake or bake one for ourself so we looked all over the internet and said:

ESport is a passion for gaming competition, it's also following the news and all about videogames.

So we had this idea: instead of trying to steal our competitors audience we should try to find an external public, a new audience. A public not yet interested by eSport altogether but already playing videogames.

Like the trailers and ads on TV or before a movie at the theater, we thought about who we would like to aim for:

-Music? Cinema? News? too heterogeneous.
- Video game sites? Too many competitors, seems impossible...

We then thought about our web colleagues, browser games and humoristic website's owners. The publics having a lot in common, it looked like it would works. The first tests were conducted and it was a success, our webtv animators gathered a lot more "likes" on facebook and the website itself had a 300% increase in registration per day compared to the average day. We had found our future audience.

It's costing us tens of thousands euros every month in advertising and doesn't make Eclypsia the most profitable team in the world, simply the one that is investing the most for its visibility. Is that a crime? I don't think so.

Some, on reddit or whatever, said the stream was "hidden". (T/N: I can't properly translate the following because i don't know how to translate that kind of expression from french to english, bear with me and try to understand^^) Know that if you don't see the streams, eSport passionates (T/N: sarcasm of course), it's because you are using Adblock and that is killing eSport much more than what we are doing...

Without Adblock, the stream is autoplayed and automuted (meanwhile announcements have sound), this option is available on Dailymotion and Twitch (check Home page).

You called it a false public?


I don't think so, i think it's a new public, a rising public, how many will eventually become our audience? I don't know that, 10%, 20%? Yet it would already be great. Because that is costing us much more than what we earn from that, i don't think our sponsors will complain about that.

Bandwidth and the slowing of a third party website?


I hear about how much bandwidth those embeded streams take, everyone of them are in iframes. They don't have the priority while the page is loading. On the other hand, there is a "stop" button that effectively stop the loading of the embeded stream, any flash ads and banners take as much bandwidth and can't be stopped.

How Eclypsia passed this sleight of hand?


We bought advertising spots like there is on every websites. Instead of having a banner on this spot, it's an embeded stream, an idea, a simple idea. We did it with the agreement of our diffusion platform and our sponsors.

The sponsors now?


I hear that this kind of thing will lower the global CPM (T/N: not sure what it means, sorry if it's a french acronym :'( ) and lower the stream's revenue. First you have to know that Eclypsia bought those advertising spots already occupied by advertisers, at a high price. Those same spots occupied by advertisers won't be available anymore on the concerned websites, only through Eclypsia and its provider. The sales volume of Eclypsia certainly becomes substancial but extremely deficient.

On the other hand, i think that this volume pool can only makes eSport more credible.

An example for a better understanding:

Like for the PSG (T/N: The biggest Paris soccer team), regrouping so many star players under the same jersey certainly boosted the PSG's stadium attendance, certainly boosted the sales of their jerseys too but also the attendance of all the local stadiums receiving the PSG for a single game.

More in our perspective, EG follows the same principle with Stephano and all the star players they added in their roster, they managed to convinced sponsors like Monster Energy and others because of that. Instead of favoring the team part, Eclypsia choosed to invest its money on media. A different strategic choice, that's all.

I think most of the point is made and we have to end it on a positive note.

Mind openness is not a skull fracture.

Opening the market to a bigger potential public can only make eSport grow, we are passionates before everything else, i myself was a high level gamer on several games, i'm still active on SC2 and Shootmania. Do you think we want to kill the market? At the contrary, we are trying more than ever to open it to a scale that sadly seems to scare you. Believe me, those viewers will soon be at your doors because today they find out about Eclypsia but tomorrow, if they like what you're doing, our games, our passion, they will seek more. Rub your hands instead of crying.

I'm available for the community and wish better time at your side.

Eclypsia already found a sponsor that will be announced soon. By the way, we are thanking our sponsor by advance for the support.


Okay, here is my translation. It's a lot better than google, at least i hope :p
In case you find mistakes or have better wording for some part, don't hesitate to PM me!
Areon
Profile Joined November 2010
United States273 Posts
October 10 2012 20:51 GMT
#315
LOL

The new esports fad: zombie viewers. Just what we need to revitalize the scene!
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
October 10 2012 20:54 GMT
#316
It depends on what they're getting paid per view, what they're paying per view, whether it is set to auto-hide or not, whether they use stream view #s for approaching sponsors, and if they give full disclosure, and obviously whether their stream host is aware of this.
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
JoeSchmoe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2058 Posts
October 10 2012 21:03 GMT
#317
On October 10 2012 14:07 Zzoram wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2012 13:55 JoeSchmoe wrote:
so how exactly are they "cheating"?


They are faking stream views to get ad money. It's the same as click fraud for banner ads.

It's also illegal IIRC.


It's neither a fraud or illegal.
GrassEater
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden417 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 21:24:21
October 10 2012 21:13 GMT
#318
Edid: Did not know both sides.
NapoleonBonaparte
Profile Joined September 2011
France64 Posts
October 10 2012 21:16 GMT
#319
They didn't cheat. They have just used the incredible success of the website http://www.fluvore.com to increase their viewers. Fluvore is based on the greatest idea of 2012. In using them you can convert a video from youtube or others video sites in an .avi or .mp3 format... directly without downloading anything. It's normal a ton of people visited it last 2 months...

EC has just chosen the right place to support.
HotS...
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
October 10 2012 21:39 GMT
#320
Seems like a valid advertising strategy. It's more shocking that ads like these are allowed. Makes me feel much better that I use adblock on 99% of websites, I can't believe you are allowed to embed livestreams in adspace, unreal.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
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