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On September 16 2012 08:37 lysergic wrote:You should include the number of games rather than just the percentage in the OP. It's misleading to just say PvZ 60%.
Korea
PvT: 43-27 (61.4%)
ZvT: 22-25 (46.8%)
ZvP: 28-42 (40%)
International
PvT: 259-301 (46.3%)
ZvT: 290-278 (51.1%)
ZvP: 364-322 (53.1%)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B9Rww.jpg) Note: I calculated the # of games for each matchup using the winrate * total games on the international graph; they might not be 100% accurate.These statistics, especially the korean ones, are pretty meaningless. Even 1 game has a significant impact on the winrates. For example, if Jaedong beat MarineKing 2-0 rather than losing 1-2 in GSL, then ZvT would be 50%.
International games are meaningless stats because its not the top tier play.
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On September 16 2012 13:31 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:37 lysergic wrote:You should include the number of games rather than just the percentage in the OP. It's misleading to just say PvZ 60%.
Korea
PvT: 43-27 (61.4%)
ZvT: 22-25 (46.8%)
ZvP: 28-42 (40%)
International
PvT: 259-301 (46.3%)
ZvT: 290-278 (51.1%)
ZvP: 364-322 (53.1%)
Note: I calculated the # of games for each matchup using the winrate * total games on the international graph; they might not be 100% accurate.These statistics, especially the korean ones, are pretty meaningless. Even 1 game has a significant impact on the winrates. For example, if Jaedong beat MarineKing 2-0 rather than losing 1-2 in GSL, then ZvT would be 50%. International games are meaningless stats because its not the top tier play.
You need to have some statistics to base balance. With the korean statistics having +/- 10% (which makes it impossible to determine balance), you need to either look at korean over the past ~3 months, or you have to use international statistics. In either case, foreign tournaments still have some very high level players, e.g. stephano, socke, thorzain, grubby, nercio, mana, vortix, lucifron, ... If you care about recent balance, then you have to use internation statistics or you will never be able to determine balance outside of a very long integration periods.
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On September 16 2012 13:29 TommyP wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 01:30 LuckyMacro wrote:On September 16 2012 00:44 HaiFiSCH26 wrote:
well,korean zergs are lacking progress in the past months so its normal,i think now there are many EU zergs who are better than most of the Koreans and only DRG seems to keeps his game up.
I know there are many strong EU zergs (can think of 5-6 sick good ones), but do people really believe that EU zergs are better than Korean zergs?...Just wondering. But yeah low number of games...still interesting I guess Nobody believes this except hardcore Stephano fanboys. No foreign zerg could ever win Code S (inlcuding Stephano) while DRG+ NesTea have 4 GSLs together to their name.
Sorry, what? Nestea had been slumping hard lately, even since the Zerg patch. Your example with him is like saying the Cetics are the best team in basketball currently because they have 17 championships. Korean Zergs are better as a whole than their European counterparts but if you think Nestea had a better shot at a GSL championship in his current form.then Stephano you're insane.
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On September 16 2012 13:53 Stutters695 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:29 TommyP wrote:On September 16 2012 01:30 LuckyMacro wrote:On September 16 2012 00:44 HaiFiSCH26 wrote:
well,korean zergs are lacking progress in the past months so its normal,i think now there are many EU zergs who are better than most of the Koreans and only DRG seems to keeps his game up.
I know there are many strong EU zergs (can think of 5-6 sick good ones), but do people really believe that EU zergs are better than Korean zergs?...Just wondering. But yeah low number of games...still interesting I guess Nobody believes this except hardcore Stephano fanboys. No foreign zerg could ever win Code S (inlcuding Stephano) while DRG+ NesTea have 4 GSLs together to their name. Sorry, what? Nestea had been slumping hard lately, even since the Zerg patch. Your example with him is like saying the Cetics are the best team in basketball currently because they have 17 championships. Korean Zergs are better as a whole than their European counterparts but if you think Nestea had a better shot at a GSL championship in his current form.then Stephano you're insane.
round of 8 during a slump....
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People keep talking about the small sample size making the korean stats useless (which is the highest level of play and imho should be taken more seriously), whilst the international numbers include players like Hyun, Violet and Nerchio stomping all sorts of random NA/EU GM players in online cups left and right?
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On September 16 2012 17:12 Huragius wrote:
Korean ZvT Statistic: ZvT: 22-25 (46.8%)
47 games lol. It's absolutely worthless statistic due to such a little sample size.
But because of the level of play it's still worth more than international statistics where they include random GM/masters players that aren't even sponsored or that are on no name semi pro teams that wouldn't even win 1 game in code B.
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Italy12247 Posts
Small sample size to the point where it's not very meaningful statistically, but holy crap Protoss did well :O
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IMO immortal sentry needs a nerf.ouch hardest imbalances ever since 2010
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On September 17 2012 02:34 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:12 Huragius wrote:
Korean ZvT Statistic: ZvT: 22-25 (46.8%)
47 games lol. It's absolutely worthless statistic due to such a little sample size. But because of the level of play it's still worth more than international statistics where they include random GM/masters players that aren't even sponsored or that are on no name semi pro teams that wouldn't even win 1 game in code B.
Can you explain why a small sample size is more relevant than a bigger one? I'm confused.
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On September 17 2012 02:45 Gladiator333 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:34 hunts wrote:On September 16 2012 17:12 Huragius wrote:
Korean ZvT Statistic: ZvT: 22-25 (46.8%)
47 games lol. It's absolutely worthless statistic due to such a little sample size. But because of the level of play it's still worth more than international statistics where they include random GM/masters players that aren't even sponsored or that are on no name semi pro teams that wouldn't even win 1 game in code B. Can you explain why a small sample size is more relevant than a bigger one? I'm confused.
Because he plays Zerg and the statistics would favour his race.
By the way, International statistics include a tonne of Kr vs KR games, like at MLGs, IPLs, and so on. Yes, there are some less-skilled players, but most unknowns aren't even in TLPD. Further, weak players get eliminated early in tournaments, which means that their results are naturally less relevant to the overall statistics than the results of, say, Leenock when he wins an entire MLG from the open bracket.
The margin of error in the stats we have here is incredibly huge. What's more, people don't realize that these are only like 3 tournaments. That's a big deal because a lot of notable players opted not to participate in some of them (MC, MVP dropping out of WCS, for example).
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On September 17 2012 02:44 DontNerfInfestors wrote:
IMO immortal sentry needs a nerf.ouch hardest imbalances ever since 2010
Were you around when every terran would build a barracks, a factory, a starport, add another barracks, pull all SCV's and just kill protoss? It's a strong timing attack, not a freewin.
Stats look fairly okay, especially considering last GSL finals was PvP.
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sample size kinda small bro
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On September 17 2012 03:34 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:44 DontNerfInfestors wrote:
IMO immortal sentry needs a nerf.ouch hardest imbalances ever since 2010 Were you around when every terran would build a barracks, a factory, a starport, add another barracks, pull all SCV's and just kill protoss? It's a strong timing attack, not a freewin. Stats look fairly okay, especially considering last GSL finals was PvP.
I didnt ladder,but i tried it and got a good w/l.
us.battle.net
I guess this is what i get from posting these winrates and i just deleted all my posts if they where going to be dorks.
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I really wish TL would put in a rule to stop posting these.
They dont represent balance in any way, shape, or form.
You either have a large sample size that has a huge range of skill forms, or a small sample size of the tip top.
Neither help in determining balance. Id rather see only KR statistics in 3-6 month intervals, and even then, it still wouldn't represent balance that much.
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On September 17 2012 02:37 Teoita wrote:
Small sample size to the point where it's not very meaningful statistically, but holy crap Protoss did well :O
you mean MC did well ?
its no coincidene that the months where protoss did well in the past are only those were MC wins games.
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On September 17 2012 03:53 ohampatu wrote:
I really wish TL would put in a rule to stop posting these.
They dont represent balance in any way, shape, or form.
You either have a large sample size that has a huge range of skill forms, or a small sample size of the tip top.
Neither help in determining balance. Id rather see only KR statistics in 3-6 month intervals, and even then, it still wouldn't represent balance that much.
*sigh*
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On September 17 2012 02:45 Gladiator333 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:34 hunts wrote:On September 16 2012 17:12 Huragius wrote:
Korean ZvT Statistic: ZvT: 22-25 (46.8%)
47 games lol. It's absolutely worthless statistic due to such a little sample size. But because of the level of play it's still worth more than international statistics where they include random GM/masters players that aren't even sponsored or that are on no name semi pro teams that wouldn't even win 1 game in code B. Can you explain why a small sample size is more relevant than a bigger one? I'm confused.
Because bias.
User was warned for this post
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On September 15 2012 23:58 VPVanek wrote:
So we're back at terran having a problem with Protoss, and zerg having a problem with terran..
46% is pretty balanced man...
The variations we are seeing atm, both in and outside of korea, are partially due to metagame anyways, like with many of the past statistics. But there are always a bunch of dramaqueens who misread the stats in these kinds of threads.
Its pretty balanced people, just a few minor tweaks can be made here and there, but not much.
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As a player who is terrible at PvZ I'd love to see a breakdown of build orders the Korean protoss's are using against zerg. Also, it seems like the foreign scene is dominated by a handful of players who are good enough to take wins from some of the best koreans, while the GSL is just stacked with so much talent in every race. We end up with a small sample of the highest level play from Korea and a huge sample of international events with a lot of players who get steamrolled by Korean level talent.
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EPT
