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On August 26 2012 05:06 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:53 Twinkle Toes wrote:On August 25 2012 21:50 boag11 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL. Do you seriously think ESF doesnt represents the players here? They're definitely not nothing more then GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is themselves. See what I did there? Why is it so hard for you to believe that ESF is doing all this to protect themselves and their futures from Kespa. Who for the last 10 years have oppressed their own progamers A 9-post user who registered January 2012 commenting on how Kespa "oppressed their own progamers" wow You joined in May, so you must know absolutely nothing then according to your logic.
But he was not making any claims, unlike boag11 which seems too specific considering the circumstance. I was following this thread out of curiosity and personally think he has a point and that the ban is uncalled for.
Bah! I don't want to get involved in moderation issues.
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On August 26 2012 05:25 S:klogW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:06 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 21:53 Twinkle Toes wrote:On August 25 2012 21:50 boag11 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL. Do you seriously think ESF doesnt represents the players here? They're definitely not nothing more then GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is themselves. See what I did there? Why is it so hard for you to believe that ESF is doing all this to protect themselves and their futures from Kespa. Who for the last 10 years have oppressed their own progamers A 9-post user who registered January 2012 commenting on how Kespa "oppressed their own progamers" wow You joined in May, so you must know absolutely nothing then according to your logic. But he was not making any claims, unlike boag11 which seems too specific considering the circumstance. I was following this thread out of curiosity and personally think he has a point and that the ban is uncalled for. Bah! I don't want to get involved in moderation issues.
He was also flaming everyone...?
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People using (largely) join date or post count to gauge validity of argument are ignorant and pretentious, no matter which side they're on. Don't do that.
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I like them deciding to keep their stance and not join OSL. Kespa can't just flip flop and not expect repercussions.
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On August 26 2012 04:41 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:36 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 26 2012 04:00 Fionn wrote:
I expect KeSPA to fold sometime today or tomorrow. Would be stupid not to. They had possibly their best group selections of all-time, and Parting made himself out to be a new star with how well he was received by the audience. People want to see Baby/Parting, DRG/Jangbi, Nestea/Fantasy and the rest of the ESF/KeSPA matches. Throw in that they've already done photo shoots with the ESF players, probably finished their top notch opening video, and have the graphics all done, there is no reason they shouldn't just let their players try to qualify for Season 4 of Code A.
Shit, I bet if they wanted, Mr. Chae would give Roro a Code S seed for his impressive games in WCS Korea. They were going to give them 2 code s seeds, as well as up&down and code a seeds...8 total, i think. Oh, then KeSPA will 100% take the offer. Would be petty and stupid not to. Best way for KeSPA to beat GOM is for their players to win a Code S and dominate. The big loser here is Alicia. Make three foreign finals, almost 100% a Code S seed, and then Chae promises two of them to KeSPA.
This is true; it really sucks for Alicia.
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On August 26 2012 05:36 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:25 S:klogW wrote:On August 26 2012 05:06 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 21:53 Twinkle Toes wrote:On August 25 2012 21:50 boag11 wrote:On August 25 2012 21:36 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 21:32 mrjpark wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:
[quote]
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. If the NBA/NFL/MLB decided to just run without a player's union, do you think people would just sit down and take it? I mean, there's really nowhere else to go that gives a decent wage, so the owners technically have all the leverage. Without the unions, the players would be treated like crap. Due to lack of any real alternatives, that was the situation for Brood War. The players had to either put up with KeSPA's bullshit or find another career. Now that StarCraft has been globalized, this is no longer the case and the ESF has become the player's union for Korean SC2. Now, KeSPA's back in the picture trying to get the upper hand once more. In terms of pure business perspective, this is fine. Until you realize that once they're back in power, the players lose their voice once more and we've time traveled into the past where workers had no rights. All these players that are influential in the ESF? They're all ex-KeSPA B teamers. They've all been there and done that. They know what they're up against, and they're sure as hell not letting it permeate the Korean eSports scene again. Would KeSPA kill eSports? Probably not. But that has nothing to do with the fact that right now, the ESF is protecting not only their own careers, but the careers of their KeSPA friends; players from the BW teams that have no voice of their own. When unions hold strikes, it's obviously "stupid". From a pure business standpoint, they're obviously in the wrong. I mean, they have contracts with their employees and they should just grind it out. But sometimes, you need to fight for something, and the ESF thinks this is worth it. In the long run, the ESF running things is better for global eSports, while KeSPA may be able to run Korean eSports better in the short term. Your opinion seems to be one that completely disregards the players. Sure, you'll still get your games and they'll probably be good no matter who comes out on top. But obviously, the players are a bit more emotionally/financially involved in this than you are and are willing to fight for their futures. Do you seriously think ESF represents the players here? They're nothing more than GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is the GSL. Do you seriously think ESF doesnt represents the players here? They're definitely not nothing more then GOM's lapdogs. The only thing they're protecting is themselves. See what I did there? Why is it so hard for you to believe that ESF is doing all this to protect themselves and their futures from Kespa. Who for the last 10 years have oppressed their own progamers A 9-post user who registered January 2012 commenting on how Kespa "oppressed their own progamers" wow You joined in May, so you must know absolutely nothing then according to your logic. But he was not making any claims, unlike boag11 which seems too specific considering the circumstance. I was following this thread out of curiosity and personally think he has a point and that the ban is uncalled for. Bah! I don't want to get involved in moderation issues. He was also flaming everyone...?
I don't remember exactly how the exchange went down, but he was provoking a response only from him, until all you guys jumped in. At that point, the issue was simple the way I see it. How could a someone who joined recently and had posted only a few times know something as specific like corruption in Kespa. Whatever you guys said was unnecessary, he needed to respond to it himself. Otherwise, see ^monkybone's post above. He could have replied outright about things he knew to support him, but he did not and others just messed up the issue.
Ok, that's it for me. Time to do some science now. Goodluck with this dispute, I hope it turns out great for everyone.
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On August 26 2012 05:02 Chriscras wrote:
Has anyone considered that a divided Korea might actually benefit ... the foreign scene? (raises eyebrow)
So far it has benefited the South.
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On August 26 2012 06:21 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 05:02 Chriscras wrote:
Has anyone considered that a divided Korea might actually benefit ... the foreign scene? (raises eyebrow) So far it has benefited the South.
Lol.
Yeah I don't care if a divided korea keeps the skill level down for foreigners. Koreans have real starpower(i never understood those that dont care unless if foreigners are playing, they probably just dont follow gsl and so dont know people). They have epic storylines.
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On August 26 2012 05:43 MCXD wrote:
People using (largely) join date or post count to gauge validity of argument are ignorant and pretentious, no matter which side they're on. Don't do that.
Only 808 posts? YOU CANT TALK! 
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On August 26 2012 00:26 Salazarz wrote:Here's a few major points people in this debate seem to be missing. About KeSPA "killing off" GomTV during Broodwar: That side of the story is basically completely made up by GomTV who were upset they couldn't get in on the revenues created by KeSPA, and the foreign fans hated on KeSPA over it because Gom did have English casters - something KeSPA did not. + Show Spoiler +During the period of time leading up to last Gom Classic season, the competition between KeSPA teams was at it's peak, it was definitely the era of biggest storylines and rivalries, and the pressure on every single player of KeSPA teams was ridiculous. That was also the time where individual players and coaches (NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") continually complained about having to play too many games every week, and not having enough prep time for the key leagues. It was also the time where coaches of several teams (again, NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") decided to prohibit their players from entering both MSL and OSL at the same time. In fact, quite a few players were not allowed to even participate in the preliminaries of individual leagues as they were needed to help the stars practice for their PL matches. It was not tyranny - it was what allowed KeSPA teams to show us the greatest games of Broodwar ever played. It's what made them so good.
Enter Gom Classic league. You have players struggling with their already existing work-load, suddenly a new league attempts to enter the scene. Is it reasonable to expect players who already struggle with their schedule to be excited about it? Bear in mind that for the most likely candidates to win the top prizes, the tournament prizes aren't even the main part of their paycheck - their salaries are much higher than what winning a first place in the tournament is. It was a very bad time for GomTV to push their league in; also, they were basically trying to make money off a scene KeSPA had created from scratch, with no involvement of GomTV prior to that. It was Proleague, OSL and MSL who popularized the teams and players; it was KeSPA who created the fanbase and the infrastructure to support it. Gom literally just walked in and expected a slice of the pie, then got mad because it didn't work out that way. The complaints from Mr. Chae or anyone else on GomTV staff about "KeSPA having done this before" is 100% bitter nonsense, and you really shouldn't take them for granted. About KeSPA not entering GSL4 etc: It was never announced anywhere that KeSPA players will participate in the upcoming GSL season. Players did say in their interviews that they'd like to participate as soon as it's possible, KeSPA themselves said more than once that they are looking forward to integrating with the existing SC2 scene - but there were no concrete dates or tournaments named. Time and time again they have stated that Proleague is the most important thing for them, that the teams are still in transitional period and aren't feeling very confident about their abilities in SC2, that they need more time to adjust. WCS is a very special tournament created by Blizzard. It was planned for quite a long time, and KeSPA were aware from the get-go that they are expected to participate both in the open qualifier for it, and through KeSPA seeded invites. They play in this tournament. OSL is a tournament ran by OnGameNet (NOT KeSPA, it is a long-time partner of KeSPA but it's NOT the same thing, and it's NOT ran by the same people - their relationship is at most as close as that of GomTV and eSF, and they had their conflicts in the past). It was announced a veeeeeery long time in advance, back in April if I remember correctly? and both KeSPA and eSF players were invited to participate in it. Back then, there was very little (if any at all) communication between KeSPA and GomTV as to KeSPA's participation in GSL; eSF players accepted the invitation to participate in OSL unconditionally. Most recently, GSL season 4 Code A qualifiers are announced. Literally a day after that announcement, KeSPA comes forward saying they are not feeling ready and their schedule can't accommodate participation in GSL due to PL and OSL commitments, as well as the whole transition thing. TL explodes with 'omg KeSPA powerplaying!' nonsense. We all know what happened next. I hope people will at least glance through this post before posting further nonsensical arguments. There's really a lot more to it than KeSPA trying to push eSF/Gom around and eSF/Gom 'protecting their freedom'. Also, to people saying KeSPA always 'fucked' with international esports - please check out earlier posts in this thread. That's really not true at all, if anything, it was Blizzard and ineptness of other tournament organizers who made sure foreign scene remained stagnant and virtually inexistant in the past. Also, the only reason KeSPA didn't do anything for SC2 so far, and didn't bring that game on board on launch was due to Blizzard's refusal to cooperate with them. edit: if anyone here thinks I'm a blind fanboy or whatever, it's easy enough to find TL posts, interviews, articles that will fully confirm what I said here. The truth is, the whole 'evil treacherous past of KeSPA' is massively exaggerated, and there really isn't much reason to believe that KeSPA is 'out to fuck with everyone' - not any more so than to believe that GomTV and eSF is trying to do the same, anyway.
This post should be required reading. KeSPA is not a saint, but they're not a devil either. It's a non-profit made up by representatives of the teams. There are so many posts here saying that KeSPA is evil because they won't let their teams decide, but at the end of the day, KeSPA is made up by the teams.
People act as though KeSPA is making a power-play, but fundamentally it doesn't make sense. KeSPA leagues used to have OSL, MSL, and PL. Now they're down to 2, seems to me like there's room for another league.
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On August 26 2012 05:47 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 04:41 Fionn wrote:On August 26 2012 04:36 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 26 2012 04:00 Fionn wrote:
I expect KeSPA to fold sometime today or tomorrow. Would be stupid not to. They had possibly their best group selections of all-time, and Parting made himself out to be a new star with how well he was received by the audience. People want to see Baby/Parting, DRG/Jangbi, Nestea/Fantasy and the rest of the ESF/KeSPA matches. Throw in that they've already done photo shoots with the ESF players, probably finished their top notch opening video, and have the graphics all done, there is no reason they shouldn't just let their players try to qualify for Season 4 of Code A.
Shit, I bet if they wanted, Mr. Chae would give Roro a Code S seed for his impressive games in WCS Korea. They were going to give them 2 code s seeds, as well as up&down and code a seeds...8 total, i think. Oh, then KeSPA will 100% take the offer. Would be petty and stupid not to. Best way for KeSPA to beat GOM is for their players to win a Code S and dominate. The big loser here is Alicia. Make three foreign finals, almost 100% a Code S seed, and then Chae promises two of them to KeSPA. This is true; it really sucks for Alicia.
T_T
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I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it?
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On August 26 2012 06:30 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 00:26 Salazarz wrote:Here's a few major points people in this debate seem to be missing. About KeSPA "killing off" GomTV during Broodwar: That side of the story is basically completely made up by GomTV who were upset they couldn't get in on the revenues created by KeSPA, and the foreign fans hated on KeSPA over it because Gom did have English casters - something KeSPA did not. + Show Spoiler +During the period of time leading up to last Gom Classic season, the competition between KeSPA teams was at it's peak, it was definitely the era of biggest storylines and rivalries, and the pressure on every single player of KeSPA teams was ridiculous. That was also the time where individual players and coaches (NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") continually complained about having to play too many games every week, and not having enough prep time for the key leagues. It was also the time where coaches of several teams (again, NOT "evil men in suits from KeSPA") decided to prohibit their players from entering both MSL and OSL at the same time. In fact, quite a few players were not allowed to even participate in the preliminaries of individual leagues as they were needed to help the stars practice for their PL matches. It was not tyranny - it was what allowed KeSPA teams to show us the greatest games of Broodwar ever played. It's what made them so good.
Enter Gom Classic league. You have players struggling with their already existing work-load, suddenly a new league attempts to enter the scene. Is it reasonable to expect players who already struggle with their schedule to be excited about it? Bear in mind that for the most likely candidates to win the top prizes, the tournament prizes aren't even the main part of their paycheck - their salaries are much higher than what winning a first place in the tournament is. It was a very bad time for GomTV to push their league in; also, they were basically trying to make money off a scene KeSPA had created from scratch, with no involvement of GomTV prior to that. It was Proleague, OSL and MSL who popularized the teams and players; it was KeSPA who created the fanbase and the infrastructure to support it. Gom literally just walked in and expected a slice of the pie, then got mad because it didn't work out that way. The complaints from Mr. Chae or anyone else on GomTV staff about "KeSPA having done this before" is 100% bitter nonsense, and you really shouldn't take them for granted. About KeSPA not entering GSL4 etc: It was never announced anywhere that KeSPA players will participate in the upcoming GSL season. Players did say in their interviews that they'd like to participate as soon as it's possible, KeSPA themselves said more than once that they are looking forward to integrating with the existing SC2 scene - but there were no concrete dates or tournaments named. Time and time again they have stated that Proleague is the most important thing for them, that the teams are still in transitional period and aren't feeling very confident about their abilities in SC2, that they need more time to adjust. WCS is a very special tournament created by Blizzard. It was planned for quite a long time, and KeSPA were aware from the get-go that they are expected to participate both in the open qualifier for it, and through KeSPA seeded invites. They play in this tournament. OSL is a tournament ran by OnGameNet (NOT KeSPA, it is a long-time partner of KeSPA but it's NOT the same thing, and it's NOT ran by the same people - their relationship is at most as close as that of GomTV and eSF, and they had their conflicts in the past). It was announced a veeeeeery long time in advance, back in April if I remember correctly? and both KeSPA and eSF players were invited to participate in it. Back then, there was very little (if any at all) communication between KeSPA and GomTV as to KeSPA's participation in GSL; eSF players accepted the invitation to participate in OSL unconditionally. Most recently, GSL season 4 Code A qualifiers are announced. Literally a day after that announcement, KeSPA comes forward saying they are not feeling ready and their schedule can't accommodate participation in GSL due to PL and OSL commitments, as well as the whole transition thing. TL explodes with 'omg KeSPA powerplaying!' nonsense. We all know what happened next. I hope people will at least glance through this post before posting further nonsensical arguments. There's really a lot more to it than KeSPA trying to push eSF/Gom around and eSF/Gom 'protecting their freedom'. Also, to people saying KeSPA always 'fucked' with international esports - please check out earlier posts in this thread. That's really not true at all, if anything, it was Blizzard and ineptness of other tournament organizers who made sure foreign scene remained stagnant and virtually inexistant in the past. Also, the only reason KeSPA didn't do anything for SC2 so far, and didn't bring that game on board on launch was due to Blizzard's refusal to cooperate with them. edit: if anyone here thinks I'm a blind fanboy or whatever, it's easy enough to find TL posts, interviews, articles that will fully confirm what I said here. The truth is, the whole 'evil treacherous past of KeSPA' is massively exaggerated, and there really isn't much reason to believe that KeSPA is 'out to fuck with everyone' - not any more so than to believe that GomTV and eSF is trying to do the same, anyway. This post should be required reading. KeSPA is not a saint, but they're not a devil either. It's a non-profit made up by representatives of the teams. There are so many posts here saying that KeSPA is evil because they won't let their teams decide, but at the end of the day, KeSPA is made up by the teams. People act as though KeSPA is making a power-play, but fundamentally it doesn't make sense. KeSPA leagues used to have OSL, MSL, and PL. Now they're down to 2, seems to me like there's room for another league.
There would be room if it were a league that they ran but giving up a monopoly isnt exactly something you expect to be done without a fight.
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On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote:
I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it?
Well I assume that in their eyes Kespa is wrecking the most prestigious SC2 tournament with their actions. They clearly still hope for a solution as they have asked Gom to push back the date of qualifying.
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On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote:
I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it?
As of now, for SC2, GSL is the most prestigeous tournament.
And the Koreans, who are the main clients for KeSPA, certainly feel otherwise right now.
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On August 26 2012 06:38 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote:
I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it? Well I assume that in their eyes Kespa is wrecking the most prestigious SC2 tournament with their actions. They clearly still hope for a solution as they have asked Gom to push back the date of qualifying.
The thing is though, they're not by any means wrecking it. Unless you're suggesting that Code S has been a wrecked tournament from the get-go. 
GSL still hasn't started, there won't be players pulling out after already having been qualified + been in a big group stage selection show and the biggest SC2 stars are already in Code S.
OSL on the other hand is completely assfucked if all ESF players pull out. I really don't get how there are people glorifying ESFs move here.
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In my opinion ESF sounds more like a developing esport, because i remember during the PL i think or one of the group stages where the players were bashing on each other while MVP stated that he did not want any fighting and that hes been to the foreign scene and he knows the we are developing and he wants korean sc2 scene to develop too.
I guess kespa is afraid but some time or another they have to make the bold move
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On August 26 2012 06:38 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote:
I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it? Well I assume that in their eyes Kespa is wrecking the most prestigious SC2 tournament with their actions.
Saying ahead of time your players won't go to the qualifiers of a tournament that has been fine for two years versus holding the OSL hostage by withdrawing half the players in the middle of it, who's really causing damage here?
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On August 26 2012 06:44 KlinKz wrote:
In my opinion ESF sounds more like a developing esport, because i remember during the PL i think or one of the group stages where the players were bashing on each other while MVP stated that he did not want any fighting and that hes been to the foreign scene and he knows the we are developing and he wants korean sc2 scene to develop too.
I guess kespa is afraid but some time or another they have to make the bold move
I bet MVP must be feeling mighty terrible from all this. ;_;
Poor MVP, man.
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EPT
