On August 26 2012 07:17 a176 wrote: the question many of you seem to not want to touch on is why kespa is such a big issue. according to many of you, SC2 already has many 'premier ' leagues existing, notably including the gsl. that exactly is the issue, is that many of you are focusing solely on SC2. if there is no kespa in sc2, the scene will continue just as it has for the past two years where there has been no kespa. yet for the past week it seems to be a huge issue! that is because kespa+ogn go far beyond just sc2. this is where the power lies in kespa's court. kespa+ogn carry with it sheer brand power. especially considering starcraft's osl and proleague. and not to mention the many other games they broadcast. those of you who have followed LoL on ogn know very well the success they have had.
kespa+ogn basically have nothing to lose if their players do not participate in the gsl, nor if esf players do not participate in the osl/proleague.
I agree, you are absolutely correct sir. I said exactly this and also that this situation is going to hurt ESF.
On August 26 2012 07:15 oneofthem wrote: "GSL" players may show better results now, but everyone knows that they are inferior in talent and potential etc etc. nobody who has any idea of starcraft would care for a league that excludes the best players in the world.
Oh wow, can't believe I forgot how disgusting fanatical fanboys can be. It's like I'm back at Fomos and DCInside BW Gallery.
On August 26 2012 03:59 Champi wrote: i'm happy GOM are taking such an aggressive stance, and I'm glad they didn't get duped by noticing that kespa only announced they would participate in GSL5. kespa are the type of organisation to be sneaky like that
they need to understand this is a new scene, where they are the newcomers. kespa are NOT the tyrants here that they are used to being in BW, where they own everything, everyone, and call all the shots. sc2 is a global esport, not just confined to Korea like BW where their word was law.
they need to learn this and find/earn their place in all this like the rest of us, and they need to accept they're not the royalty they think they are. They made starcraft BW what it was/is, Granted. But they had nothing at all to do with the success of sc2, and they are worth no more than any other sc2 organisation, particularly GOM.
GOM aren't really pulling the strings here. It's actually eSports Federation, the governing body of Korean SC2 teams indepedent of KeSPA. I think only two non-KeSPA teams are not part of eSF and that's SlayerS and FXOpen.
On August 26 2012 07:17 a176 wrote: the question many of you seem to not want to touch on is why kespa is such a big issue. according to many of you, SC2 already has many 'premier ' leagues existing, notably including the gsl. that exactly is the issue, is that many of you are focusing solely on SC2. if there is no kespa in sc2, the scene will continue just as it has for the past two years where there has been no kespa. yet for the past week it seems to be a huge issue! that is because kespa+ogn go far beyond just sc2. this is where the power lies in kespa's court. kespa+ogn carry with it sheer brand power. especially considering starcraft's osl and proleague. and not to mention the many other games they broadcast. those of you who have followed LoL on ogn know very well the success they have had.
kespa+ogn basically have nothing to lose if their players do not participate in the gsl, nor if esf players do not participate in the osl/proleague.
Eh I disagree. There are a lot of sc2 players that never watched bw professionally or anything and don't really care for them. If kespa just plays in gsl and then gom players/esf players whatever you want to call them play in OSL it brings more viewers and more exposure. It will bring both fans from both of them. So no you are incorrect Kespa has stuff to lose to even though it may not seem that way sometimes.
On August 26 2012 07:15 oneofthem wrote: "GSL" players may show better results now, but everyone knows that they are inferior in talent and potential etc etc. nobody who has any idea of starcraft would care for a league that excludes the best players in the world.
Oh wow, can't believe I forgot how disgusting fanatical fanboys can be. It's like I'm back at Fomos and DCInside BW Gallery.
Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote: I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it?
Well I assume that in their eyes Kespa is wrecking the most prestigious SC2 tournament with their actions.
Saying ahead of time your players won't go to the qualifiers of a tournament that has been fine for two years versus holding the OSL hostage by withdrawing half the players in the middle of it, who's really causing damage here?
So what would you do in ESF's shoes? Just follow along like a bunch of good "dishwashers" they used to be?
Why would I need to do anything? I'd get to play in the OSL and GSL; I'd be ecstatic.
You kept letting KeSPA do what they wanted you to do, and now you're back being a slave, not able to do whatever you want with your career. GOM has gone bankrupt because KeSPA was left unchecked and do whatever dirty but legit business tactics, ESF's existence became meaningless.
How did GOM go bankrupt? Do you have any explanation of exactly how that would ever happen besides "KeSPA cast a wicked spell of Kill GOM"? Why would ESF be meaningless?
Not true. OSL loses prestige. When given players choice, they choose not to play in OSL. That's a big deal. Kespa loses the trust of everyone in the sc2 scene. The fact that kespa is so tight knit in the first place caused many b-teamers to switch to sc2.
On August 26 2012 07:15 oneofthem wrote: "GSL" players may show better results now, but everyone knows that they are inferior in talent and potential etc etc. nobody who has any idea of starcraft would care for a league that excludes the best players in the world.
Oh wow, can't believe I forgot how disgusting fanatical fanboys can be. It's like I'm back at Fomos and DCInside BW Gallery.
Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote: I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it?
Well I assume that in their eyes Kespa is wrecking the most prestigious SC2 tournament with their actions.
Saying ahead of time your players won't go to the qualifiers of a tournament that has been fine for two years versus holding the OSL hostage by withdrawing half the players in the middle of it, who's really causing damage here?
So what would you do in ESF's shoes? Just follow along like a bunch of good "dishwashers" they used to be?
Why would I need to do anything? I'd get to play in the OSL and GSL; I'd be ecstatic.
You kept letting KeSPA do what they wanted you to do, and now you're back being a slave, not able to do whatever you want with your career. GOM has gone bankrupt because KeSPA was left unchecked and do whatever dirty but legit business tactics, ESF's existence became meaningless.
How did GOM go bankrupt? Do you have any explanation of exactly how that would ever happen besides "KeSPA cast a wicked spell of Kill GOM"? Why would ESF be meaningless?
They wouldn't go bankrupt but they'd start losing more and more money by producing this stuff and getting less and less viewers because you have OSL with KeSPA players who are far more established in Korea being the dominant league. Then ESF becomes useless when GOM pulls out of the SC2 world cause of that they only have one option, KeSPA. They either change their livelihood or they go back to KeSPA.
On August 26 2012 07:15 oneofthem wrote: "GSL" players may show better results now, but everyone knows that they are inferior in talent and potential etc etc. nobody who has any idea of starcraft would care for a league that excludes the best players in the world.
Oh wow, can't believe I forgot how disgusting fanatical fanboys can be. It's like I'm back at Fomos and DCInside BW Gallery.
Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote: I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it?
Well I assume that in their eyes Kespa is wrecking the most prestigious SC2 tournament with their actions.
Saying ahead of time your players won't go to the qualifiers of a tournament that has been fine for two years versus holding the OSL hostage by withdrawing half the players in the middle of it, who's really causing damage here?
So what would you do in ESF's shoes? Just follow along like a bunch of good "dishwashers" they used to be?
Why would I need to do anything? I'd get to play in the OSL and GSL; I'd be ecstatic.
You kept letting KeSPA do what they wanted you to do, and now you're back being a slave, not able to do whatever you want with your career. GOM has gone bankrupt because KeSPA was left unchecked and do whatever dirty but legit business tactics, ESF's existence became meaningless.
How did GOM go bankrupt? Do you have any explanation of exactly how that would ever happen besides "KeSPA cast a wicked spell of Kill GOM"? Why would ESF be meaningless?
Season 5 arrives... GOM: Hey KeSPA, you promised you will participate this season. KeSPA: lol no, my players need to prepare for SPL and other tournaments. GOM: But you said that last time, and this time I fixed the schedules on time, and I'll even offer your players seeds to my tournament! KeSPA: lol thanks for the offer, but maybe next season. GOM: Not cool, man. KeSPA: come now, you let me go without trouble last time, why not this time? *Repeat until GOM fades into obscurity and eventually out of eSports business*
KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
I feel like KeSPA is only doing the transition to SC2 because it'd be easier for their players to transition that way, since both games are fairly similar. Blizzard played nice with KeSPA because they knew SC2 would continue to shrink without the help of KeSPA .. and that's why they haven't made any sort of announcement condemning KeSPA.
On August 26 2012 07:15 oneofthem wrote: "GSL" players may show better results now, but everyone knows that they are inferior in talent and potential etc etc. nobody who has any idea of starcraft would care for a league that excludes the best players in the world.
Oh wow, can't believe I forgot how disgusting fanatical fanboys can be. It's like I'm back at Fomos and DCInside BW Gallery.
Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
On August 26 2012 07:08 JiPrime wrote:
On August 26 2012 06:54 oBlade wrote:
On August 26 2012 06:51 JiPrime wrote:
On August 26 2012 06:44 oBlade wrote:
On August 26 2012 06:38 mrtomjones wrote:
On August 26 2012 06:36 Holgerius wrote: I do understand that they have to make some kind of stand against Kespa, but is it really necessary to wreck the oldest and most prestigeous (despite it being a new game) tournament in all of Esports to do it?
Well I assume that in their eyes Kespa is wrecking the most prestigious SC2 tournament with their actions.
Saying ahead of time your players won't go to the qualifiers of a tournament that has been fine for two years versus holding the OSL hostage by withdrawing half the players in the middle of it, who's really causing damage here?
So what would you do in ESF's shoes? Just follow along like a bunch of good "dishwashers" they used to be?
Why would I need to do anything? I'd get to play in the OSL and GSL; I'd be ecstatic.
You kept letting KeSPA do what they wanted you to do, and now you're back being a slave, not able to do whatever you want with your career. GOM has gone bankrupt because KeSPA was left unchecked and do whatever dirty but legit business tactics, ESF's existence became meaningless.
How did GOM go bankrupt? Do you have any explanation of exactly how that would ever happen besides "KeSPA cast a wicked spell of Kill GOM"? Why would ESF be meaningless?
Season 5 arrives... GOM: Hey KeSPA, you promised you will participate this season. KeSPA: lol no, my players need to prepare for SPL and other tournaments. GOM: But you said that last time, and this time I fixed the schedules on time, and I'll even offer your players seeds to my tournament! KeSPA: lol thanks for the offer, but maybe next season. GOM: Not cool, man. KeSPA: come now, you let me go without trouble last time, why not this time? *Repeat until GOM fades into obscurity and eventually out of eSports business*
Each of those GSLs will still be full of ESF players, just like for the past two years. They will still have the preeminent English casters. They'll still have internet streams to give sponsors exposure, they'll still have season passes for revenue.
Probably someday they will leave the business. So did GhemTV and MBCGame. But how is staying in business anyone's responsibility but their own?
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
jaedong vs yarnc filled the stadium they rented out hmmm
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
I feel like KeSPA is only doing the transition to SC2 because it'd be easier for their players to transition that way, since both games are fairly similar. Blizzard played nice with KeSPA because they knew SC2 would continue to shrink without the help of KeSPA .. and that's why they haven't made any sort of announcement condemning KeSPA.
Pretty much, i'm sure OGN is fed up with this as well. LoL is doing really well for them atm, so I wouldn't be suprised for them to drop SC2.
On August 26 2012 07:25 oBlade wrote: Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
Sorry to throw $0.02 into this argument, but you're both wrong (besides discussing the wrong topic) - ESF players do have an advantage over the KeSPA team players. ESF players can choose when and where to play, without worrying if their career just got flushed down the toilet.
KeSPA players are owned, lock stock and barrel, by KeSPA. Their players are not consulted, asked, or requested - they are told "This is how it is going to be". If there is evidence to the contrary, I haven't seen it. And I don't expect current superstar KeSPA players to stand up and say "We want to play. Let us play." loudly and in public - because that would jeopardize their very nice salaries.
This is not an issue of which set of players are better. It's irrelevant. It's an issue of "KeSPA, let your players decide if they want to play." ESF is even putting some leverage on GOM so that even with this drama, if KeSPA lets their players play, they can try.
If the players don't want to play in the GSL... fine. But let the PLAYERS decide that.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
Well, who knows. I wasn't really talking about the global market. I was just arguing that it was the Korean SC2 scene that needs KeSPA in order to grow/survive. When a "star" like MC can't even fill a stadium through his name alone, regardless of matchup, I think that spells trouble for the local Korean scene.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
I feel like KeSPA is only doing the transition to SC2 because it'd be easier for their players to transition that way, since both games are fairly similar. Blizzard played nice with KeSPA because they knew SC2 would continue to shrink without the help of KeSPA .. and that's why they haven't made any sort of announcement condemning KeSPA.
If this happens I will forever boycott SC2 and Bizzard.
EPT
