On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
jaedong vs yarnc filled the stadium they rented out hmmm
perhaps it is you that is willfully ignorant
If you think Korea has any say in the future of esports your mistaken. Yes korea currently has corporations involved and has done for a while but the euro and NA scenes havent even scratched the surface in the potential in the markets they reside in. The korean market in the future will be nothing compared to the chinese NA and Euro markets and by definition progamers follow the money.
Time will tell. Why people always tell that the korean market will be irrelevant in the future. Now the korean E-SPort scene is the best, produces the best players, there is really no doubt about that.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
I feel like KeSPA is only doing the transition to SC2 because it'd be easier for their players to transition that way, since both games are fairly similar. Blizzard played nice with KeSPA because they knew SC2 would continue to shrink without the help of KeSPA .. and that's why they haven't made any sort of announcement condemning KeSPA.
Pretty much, i'm sure OGN is fed up with this as well. LoL is doing really well for them atm, so I wouldn't be suprised for them to drop SC2.
That does not completely end the problem, no? It might shift the bargaining power a bit, but MVP, ST, and LG-IM have 5 LoL teams with them in total.
On August 26 2012 07:17 a176 wrote: the question many of you seem to not want to touch on is why kespa is such a big issue. according to many of you, SC2 already has many 'premier ' leagues existing, notably including the gsl. that exactly is the issue, is that many of you are focusing solely on SC2. if there is no kespa in sc2, the scene will continue just as it has for the past two years where there has been no kespa. yet for the past week it seems to be a huge issue! that is because kespa+ogn go far beyond just sc2. this is where the power lies in kespa's court. kespa+ogn carry with it sheer brand power. especially considering starcraft's osl and proleague. and not to mention the many other games they broadcast. those of you who have followed LoL on ogn know very well the success they have had.
kespa+ogn basically have nothing to lose if their players do not participate in the gsl, nor if esf players do not participate in the osl/proleague.
not true.. it is known that sc2 vs broodwar players is a huge debate in korea. and to have the current major sc2 pros competing in their first season of sc2 is almost a necessity.
if you watched the group selection for this next osl you would know there is alot of drama and excitement caused by the kespa vs federation story. ad on the fact that 1/4 of the top players in the osl are esf players. having the esf players pull out would be a small disaster for ogn.
It would be in esf's best interests to capitalize on this, but I think we all know that in the future kespa will pull ahead in terms of overall skill. so if gom and esf dont get a good agreement to include kespa to the gsl they will become the overlooked league once again. right now, as i just explained the have a small of power to help keep them in contention for korean eyes.
Some people in this thread are so hilarious GOM and ESF is doing an amazing job not only did kespa not let their players play in the gsl THEY BARRED THEM FROM GOING TO MLG RALEIGH something they promised they would go to. IF gom and esf dont do this it will go back to the old days where kespa had supreme rule and couldnt less about the foriegn tournaments and players. Im not saying kespa is a evil group but look what is happening and this isnt the first time this kind of thing happened.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 26 2012 07:17 a176 wrote: the question many of you seem to not want to touch on is why kespa is such a big issue. according to many of you, SC2 already has many 'premier ' leagues existing, notably including the gsl. that exactly is the issue, is that many of you are focusing solely on SC2. if there is no kespa in sc2, the scene will continue just as it has for the past two years where there has been no kespa. yet for the past week it seems to be a huge issue! that is because kespa+ogn go far beyond just sc2. this is where the power lies in kespa's court. kespa+ogn carry with it sheer brand power. especially considering starcraft's osl and proleague. and not to mention the many other games they broadcast. those of you who have followed LoL on ogn know very well the success they have had.
kespa+ogn basically have nothing to lose if their players do not participate in the gsl, nor if esf players do not participate in the osl/proleague.
Eh I disagree. There are a lot of sc2 players that never watched bw professionally or anything and don't really care for them. If kespa just plays in gsl and then gom players/esf players whatever you want to call them play in OSL it brings more viewers and more exposure. It will bring both fans from both of them. So no you are incorrect Kespa has stuff to lose to even though it may not seem that way sometimes.
and the point is that people overvalue the gsl players. for people who only got into the scene through sc2 this is an understandable but shortsighted point of view. kespa+ogn's business lies entirely within korea. they will not attract any more korean viewers by having esf players because the fanbase is already established from bw (especially after the last bw osl) and they already own the monopoly on televised esports. but, kespa+ogn has an opportunity to expand to foreign markets, yes. the question is, do they need to? many users seem to think this way, that without tapping into the foreign market, kespa +ogn will somehow plummet into failure. again, gom stands to gain the most since their revenue and marketing exposure would skyrocket if they could land kespa players in their tournament circuit. not the other way around.
On August 26 2012 07:25 oBlade wrote: Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
Sorry to throw $0.02 into this argument, but you're both wrong (besides discussing the wrong topic) - ESF players do have an advantage over the KeSPA team players. ESF players can choose when and where to play, without worrying if their career just got flushed down the toilet.
This is just equivocation. The question of whether one set of players is more skilled than the other is relevant to whether anyone is shooting themselves in the foot by playing in tournaments across KeSPA/ESF borders. And that's an interesting question.
Sure, ESF players have a little more self-determination with respect to what paths their careers take. That doesn't mean they have an advantage. They also have less money and less (depending) stability. People have had 2 years to switch if they weren't happy with their team under KeSPA. The organizations are different. That doesn't make one better or worse per se.
This is not an issue of which set of players are better. It's irrelevant. It's an issue of "KeSPA, let your players decide if they want to play." ESF is even putting some leverage on GOM so that even with this drama, if KeSPA lets their players play, they can try.
If the players don't want to play in the GSL... fine. But let the PLAYERS decide that.
I don't understand. The players might also like to spend all their time playing online cups. They might like to take their winnings to the clubs rather than practicing. But they're employees, obviously SPL and OSL are a priority. Even if it were an issue, why does it become the ESF's responsibility to hold the OSL hostage?
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
I would not consider an Organization that prevent player from participating in the tournament they want to play in better than any other Organization. I dont see growth when player are handcuffed to a league like that. The more power Kespa have the more it will abuse it.
Kespa pull strings in the s korea government to prevent Blizzard to publish starcraft 2, oh yeah, we want those people running Sc2 league for sure...
They dont give a fuck about growth outside Korea. They never did in BW, all they care about is their own seat of power. How many time you saw Flash/Bisu/Jaedong outside of asia playing BW? We see more tournament with top koran player in a single season than what we saw in ALL of the broodwar years.
They want to call all the shots, they cant because Blizzard the gatekeeper now and they hold all the keys. They can shutdown any tournament anytime and they can deny the liscense for new tournament. But Kespa will try to murder anything that can compete. Monopoly is bad for us consumers, cartel are bad for us consumers.
If Kespa decide you pay 10$ for every flash game you want to see what are you going to do.. Watch League of Legend? Bitch that Flash should leave the only place where he can make money!? Kespa is run by corporations. If they could legally charge organs for viewing games they would. Good market for organs on the asian black market.
On August 26 2012 07:38 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA can always give the finger to eSF and say fuck you, we're doing a mass switch to LoL. Then the Korean SC2 scene will stagnate and see more finals like this.
Yeah, because ZvZ in BW finals was so much successful, right?
I'm done talking with you people, you're being willfully ignorant at this point, just like last time.
On August 26 2012 07:25 oBlade wrote: Okay, so we'll say that neither player base has an inherent advantage over the other. In that case:
Sorry to throw $0.02 into this argument, but you're both wrong (besides discussing the wrong topic) - ESF players do have an advantage over the KeSPA team players. ESF players can choose when and where to play, without worrying if their career just got flushed down the toilet.
This is just equivocation. The question of whether one set of players is more skilled than the other is relevant to whether anyone is shooting themselves in the foot by playing in tournaments across KeSPA/ESF borders. And that's an interesting question.
Sure, ESF players have a little more self-determination with respect to what paths their careers take. That doesn't mean they have an advantage. They also have less money and less (depending) stability. People have had 2 years to switch if they weren't happy with their team under KeSPA. The organizations are different. That doesn't make one better or worse per se.
It's not an equivocation. It's the main damn point. Does anyone care if Flash isn't playing as well as he used to? No, because he's bloody Flash. Does MvP's injury issue stop people from watching him play? No. Just having those two in one tournament will draw a lot of viewers, and generate additional revenues for the tournament organizers. The ability for players to appear in tournaments with each other is the crux of the issue. It helps to generate additional revenue for tournament organizers, teams, and popularity also helps players to make money. Controlling what tournaments the players enter controls the amount of exposure players get to new fans.
You're quite right, KeSPA and ESF are VERY different organizations. ESF represents the interests of players, as it is a player run organization. KeSPA represents the interests of KeSPA, and their sponsors, and that's about it. KeSPA treats its players as a commodity. There are a number of things that KeSPA does do well for their players (helping them to master the art of public relations) but that is still done for the benefit of KeSPA, not the individual.
This is not an issue of which set of players are better. It's irrelevant. It's an issue of "KeSPA, let your players decide if they want to play." ESF is even putting some leverage on GOM so that even with this drama, if KeSPA lets their players play, they can try.
If the players don't want to play in the GSL... fine. But let the PLAYERS decide that.
I don't understand. The players might also like to spend all their time playing online cups. They might like to take their winnings to the clubs rather than practicing. But they're employees, obviously SPL and OSL are a priority. Even if it were an issue, why does it become the ESF's responsibility to hold the OSL hostage?
When KeSPA decided (despite players indicating they were willing and eager) that OSL can benefit from the exposure that ESF's players would bring, but would not reciprocate with any other league. If KeSPA players are going to prioritize SPL and OSL, why shouldn't ESF players prioritize GSL, IEM, MLG, DreamHack, IPL, GSTL, IPTL, NASL, ESL, etc?
What, you thought Stork was complaining about someone OTHER than KeSPA's treatment of players?
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
Kespa pull strings in the s korea government to prevent Blizzard to publish starcraft 2, oh yeah, we want those people running Sc2 league for sure...
They dont give a fuck about growth outside Korea. They never did in BW, all they care about is their own seat of power. How many time you saw Flash/Bisu/Jaedong outside of asia playing BW? We see more tournament with top koran player in a single season than what we saw in ALL of the broodwar years.
If Kespa decide you pay 10$ for every flash game you want to see what are you going to do.. Watch League of Legend? Bitch that Flash should leave the only place where he can make money!? Kespa is run by corporations. If they could legally charge organs for viewing games they would. Good market for organs on the asian black market.
Oh my god, why are people like you even posting on this forum? Jesus...
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
Fully agree with you. Did you go to business school? Your analysis is very Michael Porter-ish.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears.
This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players.
On August 25 2012 18:40 Otak wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
Are you kidding? GomTv has been showing Starcraft 2 since 2010 and has done a very good job doing so. Kespa has recently started sc2 and now wants the monopoly on having ALL the big name players in one tournament. If you're too blinded to see that Kespa is just deliberately trying to shut GomTv out so that they become irrelevant again then I don't know what to say to you. And to be quite honest, I think in everyones mind, GSL is the premier sc2 tournament at the moment, not the Kespa league.
And so what if GOM does end up becoming irrelevant? Did you ever stop to consider that SC2 might be better off under kespa? They bring far more to the table in terms of resources and potential for growth. This is nothing more then petty factionalism.
Fully agree with you. Did you go to business school? Your analysis is very Michael Porter-ish.
And the new ayn rand generation steps in to defend Kespa.
Thanks for reinforcing my prejudices.
whaaaaaaaat the fuck does ayn rand have to do with this lol
EPT
